The Role of signalling in self defense/fighting on the street and in the ring

MaxBax

Hi guys,

I was in a Behavioural ecology lecture and i was just thinking about SD training vs MMAsport training. As I've mentioned on this board before, and on too many occasions in real life instances, I don't think there's very much to train for in SD that you wouldn't train already in for "the ring".

Recently, a coach of mine was telling me how important it is to be confident going into a bout. He said he always knew if he was fighting someone with game or someone that was crap by the expression on their face immediately prior to the bout. He mentioned things like starring and stuff. To be honest, i laugh most of this stuff off (thinking of thompson vs alexander (thompson is a big, big guy that makes lots of noise and looks intimidating but isn't a GREAT fighter, alexander is also a big guy but doens't bother with that nonsensse, Alexander wins by KO in first round).

So what I'm asking you guys, experts in SBSD etc. and sport fighting (and those of you that aren't experts too), is there body language etc, stuff like that, that you consider important in your area?

A signal, by my definition, is a communcation with another person (in this case) that illicits a response or intends to illicit a response.

An extreme example would be that japanese wretling guy kissing heath herring. a milder example would be shouting firmly and loudly at someone you think is intending on mugging you.

Millionaire

I think for SD it is important to be aware of the situations , people, body laguage around you. so you can AVOID trouble , before it happens.

for example one night I was walking down Lenister Road in D6, at closing time, (only a few months back) and I crossed over and back , from each side of the road 3 different times, because I was alone and there were groups of drunks around. so rather that let my ego, (They won;t make me cross the road!!!" get in my way, and land me in a scrap, I simple avoided them. easy to do and hassel free!!!!

I could go on all day about self defence body language and "Fences" but that would be a whole SD class in itself.

As for starring, this canadian guy with no MA experience is in the Thai boxing camp, he is into all this psychology stuff, and was trying to tell me, I should be starting everyone out of it (when sparring). I said, I am too busy trying to punch and kick and protect my head in the ring to even waste my energy starring people out of it.

Dragan

In either circumstance a show of nerves can be just enough to tip the situation one way or the other. Like the fight you mentioned previously one big guy making noise, one big guy calm. You know the calm fighter is actually calm, but the big loud fella could be hiding nerves. And that can be all it takes.

In any competition i was ever in, from hurling, to football, to powerlifting to chess i always sought the advantage of projecting my own calm and trying to un-nerve my opponent with it.

In any of these situations the worse thing that can happen is that you lose but you will still be around tomorrow to try again!

In MMA i imagine it being very different, if you lose, that loss can follow you and i imagine if i ever get good enough to fight then i will suffer a lose and will know all about it, but i put this down to the overall difference between the martial sports and pretty much all other sports.

As a big fella i rarely get trouble on the streets ( stereotypical ideas that big dudes can bang, i love it ) but when i does happen on the odd occasion i find a confident touch normally does the trick. Anytime someone outs themselves in a perceived situation of power, the expect you to be worried. When you are not, it undermines there position of power.

All in all, in pretty much any situation the old "show no fear" line seems to hold through!

fianna.5u.com

I have been talking to alot of people in TMA and reality based self defence lately. They have been telling me stories about fights and attacks they or their fellow training partners have had on them. So I've been thinking about hte process of victim making. Signalling if like, the fact that they subscribe to the notion of attack / defence, victim and victimisation. Before I go on some people have great difficult understanding the premise-conclusion arraingment in logic so for those people I have included notes in brakets just incase people misunderstand me so completely. (this is not a dig at anyone but perhaps myself for not being able to express myself properly)

My point is, those people I know and have spoken to about their RBSD training have endless tales about fights and attacks they have been subject to. I find this so strange because with me, I do all the "no-nos" for being attacked. All the things they say one shouldnt do I do, and all the things they say you should do I dont. While they do and have all these stories.

So it got me thinking, is there a body language that exudes from them? Do they give off the vibe of a victim? Thats is a question (hence the question marks, so no need for anyone to get their knickers in a twist and take it personal).

Now athletes that I know, boxers, wrestlers, MMA fighters, Sub wrestlers etc dont get in fights or attacked at anything like the level the self defence people I know do. So for me it seems that the cultural traits that produce people who train Self defence also produce people who get in fights more, or simply put you get attacked alot so you train self defence. Similarly those who dont get attcked alot train sports.

So lets say reason MMA fighters dont get attcked as much is because they wear fight t-shirts, hang out in big groups blah blah blah. Surely it would be better for self defence to train a sport? (again, a question, no need for anyone to take this personal)

We have discussed various criminological ideas before and alot of us seemed ot agreed that you get what you expect from people. As such do people who are training to be attacked, sub consciously or otherwise, set themselves up for it? (again, thats a question, no hissy fits necessary)

As for the sport because thats where I have my knowledge (remember the above were questions so no need to start trying to tear all that appart) I think that signalling plays a huge role pre fight for some fighters. For me versus Mickey Young we were in the same room warming up so before the fight I pulled a chair over near the door so I could watch him warming up I put on my relaxed face, which of course is the total oposite to what I'm feeling and I had made sure I would be walking out after him about 2 months prior. After he did his walk out, I came down (my legs hardly able to make it down the stairs) and tried to play it really cool I even shook hands with someone, total crap but I just wanted to excude confidence. When I got in the ring I walked ot his side rather than meet him in the middle so its my ring, when I touched gloves I did so on my toes with a straight arm and really leaned on it to make it seem like I was bigger and heavier than I was.
I feel this had an effect, he looked scared the whole time, which is a compleemt to him because I've never felt anyone tougher and more determined in my life. NO matter what he did or shook he looked he came back hard. He's a class act. That said I do all this as training for bigger shows. This sort of stuff has no effect on me and It may have had no effect on micky. It effects some people. To be honest I think fighters are shaking of the "getting psyched" up for fights, at least they should be, its a savy skillful affair, no need for that you know. I just want my fights full of peace and love.

Peace

fianna.5u.com

Oh yeah, when Dekker fought "the deadly kisser" Dekker fought him. What I mean is, if you have the right mind set going in it should be pretty much un breakable and a kiss or something shouldnt change that. I used to talk to people while fighting with decent results haha.

Peace

Millionaire

fianna.5u.com wrote:

Now athletes that I know, boxers, wrestlers, MMA fighters, Sub wrestlers etc dont get in fights or attacked at anything like the level the self defence people I know do. So for me it seems that the cultural traits that produce people who train Self defence also produce people who get in fights more, or simply put you get attacked alot so you train self defence. Similarly those who dont get attcked alot train sports.

So lets say reason MMA fighters dont get attcked as much is because they wear fight t-shirts, hang out in big groups blah blah blah. Surely it would be better for self defence to train a sport? (again, a question, no need for anyone to take this personal)


Peace

When you talk about the cultural traits of boxers, wrestlers, or even kickboxers (as in me) , all I can think of is some big Neanderthal type, going around with a big scowl and unpressed with everone frown, who suffers from occassional roid rage and works as a bouncer part-time. (loves to turn away young lads with DORT accents too on the door) ha ha....ok I am joking....or am I really???!!????

When your a super good looking bloke like me and you get all the sexy gals, alot of guys get jealous, and try to start fights with me. yes has happened! LOL!

Serious though Pearse...I really do not know. I think your sterotyping the fighter (as in boxer etc) too much.

Train self defence as a sport....

whats the difference between a Self Defence right Cross and a Sport right cross?

A SD shin kick to the thigh or a Sport Shin kick to the tight?

An SD elbow or a Sport elbow?

To me none...they are both (or should be both) trained the same way.
train hard, hit pads, hit bag, and spar hard.

Or if I choose in a SD situation to use a Palm Strike (which I would and have used before) well a Palm shot is the same delievery system as a right cross, except you hit with palm instead of knuckles. So my right cross trains my palm shot and vice versa.

And In street, much easier to hit target with Palm shot than punch. just today I was working on the top bottom speed bag, fist VS Palm , Palm much more accurate.

So for me I guess I train sport MT with SD in mind, and top that off with the RBSD stuff.
for me the Boxing etc is the foundations, and without good foundation the RBSD is not much use.

That is why I have turned against these short SD courses, as there is no foundation put down over a weekend course.

columok

Rather than training methods, I think Pearse (correct me if I'm wrong) is talking about attitudes. i.e. someone who trains for self defence is more concerned with self defence and maybe gives off different sub-conscious/conscious vibes when they're in what they perceive to be a cagey situation.

fianna.5u.com

Columok is exactly right, and Millionare you illustrated the point exactly, better than I did.

There is no difference between a SD right cross and a MMA right cross. I'm not sterotyping the guys, I have a shaved head and only wear "fight gear" clothes. Going out, going to mass what ever. Luckily (touch wood for me everyone) I havent been attacked in a while.

So I meant the signalling and body lanuage refered to in the title of the thread my play an unconscious factor. I mean if you train for self defence alot your mind (weither you like it or not) may find ways of affirming your belief... making yourself a victim?

Alternatively being so aware and open minded to such things may make you excude a sort of "victim" persona?

ONce again for the benifit of some, these ar ejust questions not personal attacks. The reason I am asking is because, as millionare pointed out, there may be no difference in what you train. I'm saying perhaps the motive effects your likely hood of attack. I am basing this on the notion that sports people (for exapmle the people I train with i.e. not one neanderthal and pretty much all under 70 kgs) tend to be in a lot less situations....

If we go anywhere with this we can call it jesica fleture syndrome haha

Peace

Colm_OReilly

If I was at a dinner party with Jessica Fletcher I'd murder someone, it would be the only way I could guarantee that I wasn't the victim. Unless, of course, I had my own detective show like Tom Seleck and got falsy accused. In which case Jessice would sort it all out while I flexed my trapezius in my jail cell.

I know a lot of people disagree with my create your reality ideas but maybe reconsider them? Anyway, anyone who's into SD as much as Mill should follow in his footsteps. Leave Ireland, head to Thailand, and train Thai everyday!

Peace and Love Y'All,
Colm

columok

(for exapmle the people I train with i.e. not one neanderthal and pretty much all under 70 kgs)

I always had Maher for being around 110kg. Even heard a stirring he was fighing in the openweight GP.:p

Riley's right. (Cue gasp ). I have to say Millionaire appears to be doing it the right way around. Learn the delivery system solidly first before you add the dirt. Its what we always said. Pity the fecker argued it with us so much to begin with. Sooner or later they all join. Its... inevitable.

Millionaire

Its is sort of true, when you get into RBSD, your sort of on alert all the time.
always watching, so you notice more things, and hopefully avoid them.

I do not think I makes one have a victim demenor.

yeah I know what you mean, about affirmations, sort of Self Fulifilling Prophecy. could be true...maybe... ??!!!??

I stick to the Fact (based on my experiences and observations), if your hanging about boozey late night bolt holes, the chance of getting into a situation increases big time. there can be alot of tension in these places.

Over in Thailand I do not experience any of that feeling, and spiritually I am 1000% better than I was a few months ago in Dublin. so to me that proves that the environement and people in it have go alot to do with trouble. (in my case)

I always had the delievery systems, ya know years kickboxing and all that.
In fact if I ever teach again, it will be to a people who want to train hard core. mix the RBSD with good solid muay thai and ground (when I learn it...lesson please on next trip home!!!!)

For example, its time to get the KM myth out in the open air. KM has kick, punches, knees, elbows like MT(and RBSD strikes, eyes , throat , balls stuff), the KM I did in Israel has a full on bjj/wrestling/judo ground fighitng and throws element too. in Israel the train strikes like MT, the train ground and take down like MMA. so they are training properly, the way it should be done.

There were 8 polish guys on the course with me, and they trained everything the proper way we discussed. I was amazed at their skills. ok all the knife, gun , military stuff is done too, thats KM.

KM should be trained like this, and not way it is done in ireland.

KM is an excellent system if trained proper.

As for me KM is politics ridden, and I am happy to take what I like, with me CQC stuff, which is easy to maintain a skill level in, and keep up my life time exploration into become a better MA person. ok off to the rock hard thai bags in a few hours!

Dave Joyce

Alternatively being so aware and open minded to such things may make you excude a sort of "victim" persona?

No, quite the opposite in fact. I mean that is the purpose of awareness training to head off trouble before it starts and NOT be thought of as a victim and therefore easy "prey".

Riley's right. (Cue gasp ). I have to say Millionaire appears to be doing it the right way around. Learn the delivery system solidly first before you add the dirt. Its what we always said. Pity the fecker argued it with us so much to begin with. Sooner or later they all join. Its... inevitable.

I don't think anyone argued with having a solid delivery system, but the fact that "adding the dirt" is needed for street situations. BUT whether adding the dirt or not seems to be a worthwhile effort for MMA guys is what is causing the problem

I know a lot of people disagree with my create your reality ideas but maybe reconsider them? Anyway, anyone who's into SD as much as Mill should follow in his footsteps. Leave Ireland, head to Thailand, and train Thai everyday!

I think this is a pretty ****ty statement really Colm, do you not think you can get excellant Muaythai training in Ireland?? Now I do agree that one should go to Thailand to see whats Thai-training is like over there (and I've done it myself and a good number of my lads as well as lads from other camps regularly go over there), but the way you made the statement above really demeans the excellant camps that are here in Ireland. I don't think I've seen you post that to do BJJ, you should "leave Ireland and go to Brazil" particularly when you've got BJJ to the standard of John Kavanagh or Graham Keyes (haven't seen anyone elses, so I can't comment on others)

Millionaire

To be brutally honest, I did one one one private Thai with Paddy all last year. and the one on one is way way better than training in thailand. as you get pushed to hell , and Paddy is a perfectionist on the training. pushed me until I near puked...usually each session. only thing is one can only usually afford one private session a week...but its is definately worth it!!!!

60 mins of that is way better than 3 or 4 rounds in thai with a pad man. 3 - 4 rounds is all even the pro fighters get..after that your on your own mate to push yourself on the bags etc.

Though where I am, the clinch is outstanding, as I said before Nong Ki pathuyth camp (home of Naumbakaun champ a few yeard back) clinch is their thing.

Strange thing is, all the lads most are 18 or under and 1 or 2 older lads, are pro fighters, and I think they could be pushing much harder in training,...or maybe the fact their training twice a day since kids, they are so tuned up they do not need to be mad men?????

GalwayorBust

If I'm training, competing or in a bar I always error on the side of caution. From my experience looking or listening to an opponent only leads to speculation. Once we hit each other or grab each other is the first moment that tells me if I could be in trouble or not.

columok

I dont think Colm meant that Dave.

I think he meant that if self defence is such a big deal then go somewhere and train it full time (or as close to as possible) I dont think anywhere in Ireland runs 24/7 full time thai camps though having seen your guys and a load of Bridgestone guys fight I know the quality.

Again I know Colm and he wasnt disrespecting the coaching here. And if someone really really wanted to blitz their ground game then Brazil is the place to go. Train all day with the best tbh.

MaxBax

columok wrote:

I dont think Colm meant that Dave.

I think he meant that if self defence is such a big deal then go somewhere and train it full time (or as close to as possible) I dont think anywhere in Ireland runs 24/7 full time thai camps though having seen your guys and a load of Bridgestone guys fight I know the quality.

Again I know Colm and he wasnt disrespecting the coaching here. And if someone really really wanted to blitz their ground game then Brazil is the place to go. Train all day with the best tbh.

yeah that's what i thought.

how much does paddyc charged for one on ones? I'm talking about muay thai.

Colm_OReilly

My post was in a jovial content. To further clarify I've no intentions of killing anybody at a dinner party, or having dinner with Angela Lansbury for that matter. To explain further, originally I don't think anyone on this board talked more about street situations and self awareness than Millionaire. But his attitude towards learning was truly commenable. He trained with JK, with Paddy Clint, and wanted to try his hand at everything (very open minded). Not content with hanging around Ireland, he headed to Thailand, which definitely suited him more, if his posts are anything to go by.

Didn't mean to cause such a stir.

On the subject of dirt I think the debate from those cursed MMA guys is how much dirt training time is necessary, in comparison to all the stand up, clinch and ground work and conditioning.

columok

On the subject of dirt I think the debate from those cursed MMA guys is how much dirt training time is necessary, in comparison to all the stand up, clinch and ground work and conditioning.

Or even more approriately... who cares!

Dirt-Schmirt. I dont get into street related troubles these days. If I do my right cross that I work on the pads and heavy bags will do me a lot more good than eyepokes.

Musashi

A lot of RBSD is geared around heading trouble off and avoiding it altogether. How from that could ye gather it makes one give off a victim aura or something?
A lot of the top Instructors go to prisons and interview criminals about how they select potential victims, then suggest ways to lessen your "victim" profile without wearing a "Navy Seals-Kill 'em all" Tee while at mass, say?
In that aspect I guess signalling would be to let potential attackers know, without looking for a confrontation, that you are not a heedless fool who is going to be taken down and robbed easily. You would try to blend in with your environment, no flashy watchs, Laptop case strapped to your back, €900 push bike or things of that nature. You also try not to look to much like a fellow criminal, you never know what's been going on and a new face tripping their attention in any way is not the best. Being some sort of unremarkable "grey man" seems the easiest, and if you do get noticed hopefully this second look will have them decide your not worth it either in terms of Effort v. Reward or indeed Risk v. Reward.

This thread
has a lot of info which I'll try paraphrase here. Check out the discussion if it means anything to you.

You do have to consider how much of a risk they perceive you to be, a skinny 70kg MMA wizard may not be clocked as such, where a 6' 4" muscular guy probably will be, even if he can't fight at all. Also, how badly does our imaginary predator need to get paid? If this is early on and he's doing it purely for spending money it may not make sense for him to tackle anything but well dressed women with easily grabbed hand luggage. If we have a junkie hurting for a fix of something then tackling a large physically impressive guy might be his only hope of making the necessary money. He may decide the risk is acceptable, but only if he can level the larger guy with a pipe to the noggin before he's spotted and ID'd as a threat. So again your own awareness will send the signal that you've spotted this guy as a possible threat and , while not staring him down you are aware of and tracking his presence.

Put it this way if you'd like.

A) Payoff Potential, minus costs of preparation and search.

Risk of Loss (Prey Hurts Him). This is a multifactor component and includes a quick, subjective assessment of the physical capabilities of the potential victim, as modified by laws and local customs regarding private weapons ownership, individual's right to defend himself, etc.

C) Risk of Getting Caught (The Law Hurts Him). This is mostly based on environmental cues.

On an income statement, A would be equivalent to Sales and the others would be equivalent to Cost of Goods Sold and Fixed Costs. If A - (B + C) turns out to be a negative number, predation won't work out economically. He absolutely has to try to pick targets that seem likely to have decent pay-outs, while simultaneously doing everything he can to minimize B and C. He can only be wrong once and he's ****ed, so the *smart* (economically rational) guy is going to run a pretty tight victim selection screen. If someone was looking for an unarmed fight with a prepared opponent, he'd be better off doing the MMA Circuit or trying to go Pro as a boxer.

Cash Flow Generated from Crime = Cash from Victim - (Investment in Time/Search + Investment in Equipment)

I'm assuming that an investment made would pay off almost immediately, so there is no need to take into account certain concepts that you normally would if you were building a business and dealing with cash flows in the future. The problem we have is if you look kind of a hard target, like say a Carpenter or something, you probably don't have a lot of cash or valuables on you. Generalised statement to illustrate a point. The same guy dressed in a nice suit with a nice shiny watch and a "Man-Bag" might be carrying enough worth to make it now worth while to attack him.

Of course factors can skew this either way, is the attacker armed and willing to commit violence to get his way. Does he think the target might be armed/ prepared to inflict violence. Are either party under the influence of drink or drugs? Is the attacker rational and looking at this as business or a nutter just looking for someone to have a scrap with?

I would think looking tough but having nothing to back it up could be even worse than looking easy meat but having skills. I still think even if you are marked as a target if you are aware and watching you may pick up on something weird going on and take measures to remove yourself from there so any trap never gets a chance to be sprung on you. Any fights I ever got in, and they aren't that many, were weird sudden things with no "Interview" stage. It just went off, mostly due to alcohol I'd imagine. Since I don't get out much anymore I haven't even seen a fight in ages. I have picked up on guys hanging about seemingly for no reason and crossed the street to avoid them, no fight ensued so it may or may not have been a set-up. I also copped a guy "mirroring" me while on Holiday in Barbados. He looked scrappy enough to stand out in the shopping district we were in so turning into a store with Security on the door meant he couldn't follow and lost interest. Again may have been nothing but I'd rather do something simple than ignore it and hope I'm wrong.

Again with the rambling posts but I haven't been sleeping right this week
Hope this made some kind of sense as to how I see RBSD and it's place in Self Defense.

Millionaire

How much time to train Dirty stuff?

Actually I train very very little on this!...WHAT! I hear you all say????

Most RBSD instructors, recommend learn the techniques, then isolate 2 no more than 3 max, that suit you, and train them 1000s of times until they are a part of you.

For me that is palm shots,(including the various versions) and cupped hand strikes (slaps basically). Thats about it! so the goal is if I am attacked (assuming no chance to avoid), I palm shots are so drilled into every fibre of my being, that I will unlease them fast and furious, and the escape.

I do n't consider Palm shots nor slaps to be dirty.

In fact Palm shot is not different than a punch, (same delievery system).

I rarely train eye attacks, and would hate to use one, though if I had no option I would. (now thats for a serious violent attack). Throat strike may kill someone, plus I think it would be a hard target to hit anyway fight.
rarely would go for groin attack, as thugs all watch out for balls attacks.

elbows and knees, I am training anyway. boxing is training my palm shot anyway etc.

As I said before, this large sized 40 year old bully with a know reputation for kicking off trouble, squared up to me last year, and before I could figure out what he wanted launched an almight punch which hit me bang on the forehead, (I ducked a little just in time), and with my own almight palm shot, hit him so hard, he landed on his butt well away from me, very daised and confused! LOL!... and then he was removed from the club.

The palm shot did the job lovely, I did not have to even think about using it, i had drilled it so much, it was there for me, and it was not sort of strike to maime or kill him.