TT in sb

Hectorjelly

Folded to me in the sb with TT. The bb is a tight good player. Not really sure how tight or how good. We both have 450. I havent played a hand at the table yet.

I complete the sb. Id sometimes raise here but I hate building pots for other people to take off me, I think there is almost no chance of me being bluffed if I dont raise, but there is if I do. Maybe this is a mistake.

The BB makes it 30 more, he isnt bluffing but this seems a little big for a hand that wants action. I call.

The flop is T56 with two hearts. I bet 50. He makes it 200. Should I push now? Or check call lead turn? Check Call check raise turn? Im not concerned with being outdrawn but I am concerned with AA folding to a scare turn card.

ullu

Is the T on the board a heart? AKh is likely but the preflop raise is too large, if your read that he is very tight is correct. I can't see him doing it with a set as he wouldn't have made that raise with 55 or 66. He's practically committed himself anyway so I'd push after waiting for a while.

willis

I presume its 2/4. I insta push here, as u said u dont want him to fold AA to a scare card on the turn. I put him on JJ or AK/AQ with 2 hearts, as u said 30 preflop seems too much for a hand that wants action. With stack sizes i think the check/lead turn is a mistake as ur giving him a free card and giving him a chance to fold a flush draw or JJ if a K/q comes. if u just call the 200 he must put you on a big hand and will slowdown unless he has a monster

fuzzbox

I find that when I call here, a heart hits the turn, and he either has a flush, or shuts down, so I just push.

When I call and check a non-heart turn, then he checks behind with hearts, so I dont like that either.

ianmc38

I would say push here.

Ste05

hmmm tricky one. I looks like he's fairly committed to the Pot now, so I think I push now, he'll be getting just over 2:1 to call with his flush and over cards which is about right for him. Also he'll probably call with his overpair here too.

Calling and leading the turn will have to be all-in really and there's alot of scare cards for him that could let him get away from an overpair. Or he will call if he hits an out.

Calling then check calling/raising (same thing really with this pot size it's an all-in) depends on him betting, and you don't want to give him a free roll to see the river for free with his draw, if he decides to peel off one more) therefore I push here and now.

He'll probably put you on trips, two pair or a big draw, whichever one he doesn't have, and should call thinking he at least has outs. And he can't really leave the pot now with all his money in there.

EDIT: Above a bit disjointed and hard to follow, but basically I'd push, because he's pretty much pot committed by the looks of it. He's getting decent enough odds to call with his flush draw, where as if he has an over pair, he'll probably put you on a big draw and will also call thinking he is ahead here. In both situations, you don't want to give him a free card or the chance for a scare card to fall to either (a) shut down your action or (b) let him free roll to hit his hand. Any better???

NickyOD

Hectorjelly wrote:

Folded to me in the sb with TT. The bb is a tight good player. Not really sure how tight or how good. We both have 450. I havent played a hand at the table yet.

I complete the sb. Id sometimes raise here but I hate building pots for other people to take off me, I think there is almost no chance of me being bluffed if I dont raise, but there is if I do. Maybe this is a mistake.

The BB makes it 30 more, he isnt bluffing but this seems a little big for a hand that wants action. I call.

The flop is T56 with two hearts. I bet 50. He makes it 200. Should I push now? Or check call lead turn? Check Call check raise turn? Im not concerned with being outdrawn but I am concerned with AA folding to a scare turn card.

Given your description of the villain have you put him on AK/AQ of hearts? There's really no value in slowplaying your hand unless you are sure he has a big pair and even then like you said there are plenty of cards that will scare him away. If there wasn't so much money already in the pot I'd probably call and try and price him out of it on a non heart turn but in this case I'd just bang it in on the flop. I'm guessing from the tone of the post you pushed and scared him off QQ/JJ?

Ste05

BTW, was this 2/4 and he bets 30 into a SB limper??

ullu

Sorry Ste05, I thought I had copied and pasted but I hadn't! Sorry for the misunderstanding.

The starting stack is $450 so it's 3/6 on Tribeca

Ste05

ullu wrote:

The starting is $450 so it's 3/6

huh??
Normally the max buy-in at that table is $600, max at a 2/4 is $400, I seriously doubt HJ is sitting at a table without the max or near to it..

EDIT: Just read the quote you have there, another huh???

Shortstack

Ste05 wrote:

BTW, was this 2/4 and he bets 30 into a SB limper??

You see the strangest things at 2/4 on Tribeca. I am guilty of some of them myself.

The other night I have KK in the BB. There is an early raise to 12 and 4 callers before it gets to me. I have 450 and cover the rest of the table. I push and get called by 33 who has $200 in front of him.

Similar last night and 99 calls for nearly 200 preflop against my KK.

Just noticed Hector siad he had just joined the table with $450 so it must be $3/$6. TBH not much difference than $2/$4 other than there are a few more rocks which stick out like sore thumbs.

Hectorjelly

I thought for a while and pushed. He thought about it and folded. From the timing I think he almost certainly didnt have a tough decision, so Im guessing AK with no hearts. The guy asked me had I a set though so maybe he could of found a fold with an overpair. I think my line is pretty much obviously a set, and against a good player it will maximise my earn should he decide to try and take the pot off me, but is probably so standard that an overpair is given a good chance to get away. Maybe there is a better line to take with sets in this spot (open push the flop?).

Fuzz brought up something I felt was important, if I flat call I am no longer in control on the turn. I really hate being out of position.

Shortstack

Ste05 wrote:

huh??
Normally the max buy-in at that table is $600, max at a 2/4 is $400, I seriously doubt HJ is sitting at a table without the max or near to it..

EDIT: Just read the quote you have there, another huh???

For some reason on Tribeca the max buy ins are:

1/2 $200
2/4 $300
3/6 $450
5/10 $750
10/20 $1500

Ste05

Shortstack wrote:

For some reason on Tribeca the max buy ins are:

1/2 $200
2/4 $300
3/6 $450
5/10 $750
10/20 $1500

Ah, didn't know that, I don't play on Tribeca.

fuzzbox

Hectorjelly wrote:

I thought for a while and pushed. He thought about it and folded. From the timing I think he almost certainly didnt have a tough decision, so Im guessing AK with no hearts. The guy asked me had I a set though so maybe he could of found a fold with an overpair. I think my line is pretty much obviously a set, and against a good player it will maximise my earn should he decide to try and take the pot off me, but is probably so standard that an overpair is given a good chance to get away. Maybe there is a better line to take with sets in this spot (open push the flop?).

Fuzz brought up something I felt was important, if I flat call I am no longer in control on the turn. I really hate being out of position.

make the same move with a big draw.

ianmc38

fuzzbox wrote:

make the same move with a big draw.

How big is big? Open ended straight with a flush draw? Nut flush and a gutshot? Nut flush? I'm interested to know as I'm never quite sure how to play these draws in a similar scenario.

RoundTower

I push, no matter what happens you can end up second guessing yourself and wondering whether you should have made the opposite decision.

I'm more interested in your limp preflop. Would you raise with any hands here? I think you give up too much by limping with TT, both in this hand and in the long run.

FastMachine

I don't see anything wrong with the sb limp preflop. I don't like being out of position with TT against an opponent that is willing to call a raise in a two man pot. A strong/tricky opponent could take you off the hand alot of the time. I'd 'usually' limp here.

I think my line is pretty much obviously a set, and against a good player it will maximise my earn should he decide to try and take the pot off me, but is probably so standard that an overpair is given a good chance to get away. Maybe there is a better line to take with sets in this spot (open push the flop?).

I don't see an overpair folding here for 220 with half his stack in the 460 pot, he surely had overcards/mid pocket pair. I think you had a very satisfactory result in this hand, you made 230 with a set against a guy who had nothing. Open pushing the flop would loose you alot of money in the long run against aggressive players with nothing and good players who can fold overpairs.

Hectorjelly

RoundTower wrote:

I'm more interested in your limp preflop. Would you raise with any hands here? I think you give up too much by limping with TT, both in this hand and in the long run.

I limp TT literally about 0% of the time, if the button had of limped I would of raised. Its just this patiular scenario (blind battle out of position against a good opponent) is one in which I think limping will be better with a hand like TT. If the opponent was loose or tight weak then I would raise. I could be wrong about this, and I took a while to decide preflop.

ocallagh

I agree with the push. In this situation you really want him to call and show the table how u played this hand. I've become convinced that slow playing in cash games is a bad idea. I used to do it all the time in tournies and I found players caught on so bloody fast. There are exceptions (very deep stacks etc..) but I really like the push here.. especially for your image.. pity he didn't call.

ianmc38

ocallagh wrote:

I agree with the push. In this situation you really want him to call and show the table how u played this hand. I've become convinced that slow playing in cash games is a bad idea. I used to do it all the time in tournies and I found players caught on so bloody fast. There are exceptions (very deep stacks etc..) but I really like the push here.. especially for your image.. pity he didn't call.

Slow playing in cash is just a no no. The only scenario i consider it in these days is i im in the blinds and its been folded around and im sitting on AA or KK. ive been crippled by slowplaying big pairs preflop. Not worth it IMHO

RoundTower

Hectorjelly wrote:

I limp TT literally about 0% of the time, if the button had of limped I would of raised. Its just this patiular scenario (blind battle out of position against a good opponent) is one in which I think limping will be better with a hand like TT. If the opponent was loose or tight weak then I would raise. I could be wrong about this, and I took a while to decide preflop.

Suppose you were playing a heads up game (on Pokerstars or Prima or somewhere, not Tribeca) and you were the small blind off the button with TT. Do you raise in that situation? Don't you raise there with a lot of hands?

I know you said this is more or less the only time you limp TT, but surely a good opponent will pick up on this and give you even less action when you raise with KK?

Hectorjelly

RoundTower wrote:

Suppose you were playing a heads up game (on Pokerstars or Prima or somewhere, not Tribeca) and you were the small blind off the button with TT. Do you raise in that situation? Don't you raise there with a lot of hands?

I have almost no experience with that structure. I would bet that that structure tends to dampen action between two reasnable opponents.

RoundTower wrote:

I know you said this is more or less the only time you limp TT, but surely a good opponent will pick up on this and give you even less action when you raise with KK?

If any of my opponents realise that my raising % from the sb is significently lower when there is no limpers and alter their strategy accordingly then in my book they deserve some of my EV. I do keep aware of how these things are going and change how im playing.

Hectorjelly

FastMachine wrote:

I don't see an overpair folding here for 220 with half his stack in the 460 pot, he surely had overcards/mid pocket pair. I think you had a very satisfactory result in this hand, you made 230 with a set against a guy who had nothing. Open pushing the flop would loose you alot of money in the long run against aggressive players with nothing and good players who can fold overpairs.

I think open pushing the flop will get called by most players with an overpair, I almost certainly would. But I get your point, and for this to be viable I would want to be pretty sure he had AA KK most of the time.

fuzzbox

Hectorjelly wrote:

I think open pushing the flop will get called by most players with an overpair, I almost certainly would. But I get your point, and for this to be viable I would want to be pretty sure he had AA KK most of the time.

Check/raise all-in is superior to open push.

You gain a flop bet from your opponent very often, and you certainly confuse your opponent into believing you have a big draw, so he probably calls too often with an overpair.

Once again - you can check/raise all-in with your big draws too, and then the plan is wonderful.

I usually choose between the two lines by
A. Stack Sizes (small pot = lead 3-bet, bigger pot = c/r all-in)
B. propensity of opponent to raise the flop bet (lots of players in my games, dont give you the raise you seek (I'm one of them very often)).


For ianmc -
A Big draw = 12 outs or more. So flush draw + overcard (aka nut flush draw), flush draw + gutshot, flush draw + 2 overcards, pair + flush draw, open ended straight flush draw and so on fit the bill nicely.

You can do it with just a flush draw too, but your opponent has to be able to lay down a hand regularly. If you think opponents call too much, then any of the above hands have great equity Vs their range. And then you get them to call light when you have a set later on, and that makes up for any slight loss in equity.

Basically you take a few EV neutral "gambles" to show a gambling image, and then you get paid when you have a set.