Some people really haven't a clue.

ZENER

The death toll on Irelands roads reached 70 plus this weekend and the government and Garda more than ever want to stem the ever increasing numbers killed on our roads.

Advertisement campaigns on TV, Radio and print media scream about the statistics and how we can reduce these dreadful figures. Car manufacturers improve the chances of surviving a bad crash by providing 4 or 5 or more seatbelts and airbags in modern cars. But this hasn't really reduced the number of accidents by a considerable amount.

The number of fatalities has'nt come down because of the technology employed in cars but I think more and more people believe because they are driving a modern car with half a dozen airbags that they no longer need to take responsability for them selves or their passangers, the attitude seems, in some cases, to be: "well I've paid all this money for all these gizmo's so now I needn't worry".

I for one heed the warnings and feel saddness every time another person is killed on our roads. The result is I don't even start the car until my passangers are fully belted. You could say that for the majority of drivers the horrible tragic carnage on the roads has wisened us up and made us more aware. At least you would like to say that. Unfortunately some people just have not received the message or simply believe that these accidents only happen to others or even as I heard once "They make the figures up to frighten us"

With this in mind I wasn't prepared for what I saw yesterday. A black 99-WW-XXX VW Golf TDI with 4 passangers and not one was wearing a seatbelt. Big deal you may think but 2 of these passangers were under 4 years of age the other 2 were obviously their parents. Again, so what, the youngest passanger who looked about 2 was sitting on the womans lap in the front passanger seet of the car, actually the child was standing on the mothers lap talking to the other 4 year old in the back seat who was standing between the seats. They drove out of the GSH at Dublin Airport and down to the lights at the exit near ALSAA.

I stopped along side and made my horror known to the driver by pointing to the child in the back and indicating my seatbelt. The drivers reaction was to wind down the passanger window and get the woman to look out at the side of the car to check for damage. He really didn't seem to understand he was doing something wrong or dangerous. They were a couple in their early 30's and seemed to be coming from the wedding fair at the GSH. There were "L" plates on the car too.

With this type of attitude still present in drivers and passangers will there ever be a reduction in road fatalities ?

Some may think it was none of my business and I should have stayed out of it.
Should I have?
What would you have done ?

Thoughts ?

Over the last few years road deaths have risen slightly while the number of cars on our roads have risen by a huge amount.

More cars on roads = more road deaths.

In real terms, per number of cars on the road the number of fatal road accidents have actually fallen.

BrianD3

People are thick. I remember when penalty points for seatbelt offences were introduced there were muppets on the radio complaining about how they'd now have to belt up their children. Some wanted the State to provide GRANTS for them to purchase 7 seat people carriers so that all their passengers could have a seat and a seatbelt :rolleyes:

Personally I find that almost no-one wears a seatbelt in the back of a car. People look at me funny when I belt up in the back or if I tell a back seat passenger to belt up when I'm driving. Front seat belt usage is pretty good however. But still, I have seen many fatal crashes on the news in recent years where in my opinion looking at the damage the people who died were probably not belted up and would have survived had they been. It is pretty obvious when you see a car that is not too badly damaged but has a head- sized hole or indentation in the windscreen :rolleyes:

ZENER

What would you have done though ? Call the garda, hit the moron up the back of the head ? I felt like doing both to this particular moron.

ZEN

ZENER

ronoc wrote:

Over the last few years road deaths have risen slightly while the number of cars on our roads have risen by a huge amount.

More cars on roads = more road deaths.

In real terms, per number of cars on the road the number of fatal road accidents have actually fallen.

Tru I guess but how much of this is because of better equipped cars and how much is because of better clued drivers ?

ZEN

Rovi

And let's not all forget that the un-belted rear passenger becomes a highly effective club in the event of a head-on crash.
Kinda defeats the purpose of the front occupants wearing their belts if they're going to be nutted to death by their buddies in the back.

.

el tel

ZENER wrote:

Some may think it was none of my business and I should have stayed out of it.
Should I have?
What would you have done ?

Thoughts ?

It's a tough call although I would be inclined to have done the same in the same situation. Some people are just ignorant to such simple things like belts. Maybe given the chance to speak to the driver saying something like "I think the kids in back have taken their seatbelts off" would get the meassage across with no-one losing face.

In a similar situation, I once saw a car in Belfast that was about to joint the motorway and in the back were four kids, standing up and generally going ape$hit. As I drew alongside I noticed the RHS back passenger door wasn't shut properly so I put my window down to tell the driver. He had no idea what I was on about and merrily joined the motorway. With thoughts of the unbelted kids acting the maggot and the possibility of the door flying open on the motorway I called the police and and told them to alert the road traffic branch. About 30 mins later I got a call from a traffic cop saying thanks - they had intercepted the car and found that the door was only partially shut and none of the occupants, mother & father included, were belted in.

BrianD3

Also, what about the practice of passengers travelling in the van part of a 2 seat car-van. I see this quite often and there are fatalities due to it, I see them both in news reports and know personally of a couple of cases. Often what happens is a single vehicle crash where the front passenger and muppet driver survive but the idiot in the back gets ejected through the back window.

ZENER

What about the act of putting on a seat belt ? To most it's like second nature. It's part of a procedure we have become used to and just do it almost without thinking. My kids automatically belt up when they get into the car. It's a natural thing for them to do because I have always made a big deal out of it. These days I need say nothing, they jus do it. IMO this is a good thing for them.

Are parents who don't make a big deal out of it with their kids from an early age breeding complacency in their offspring. My perspective on this post was from the kids POV. The adults are big enough to fend for themselves but their charges look to them for guidance. They obviously didn't get any - or at least got the wrong guidance in this case.

I don't want to sound like I'm trying to save the world or anything but I foolishly thought part of the role of "parent" was to protect your kids.

I called the police and and told them to alert the road traffic branch. About 30 mins later I got a call from a traffic cop saying thanks - they had intercepted the car and found that the door was only partially shut and none of the occupants, mother & father included, were belted in.

In hindsight this is what I should have done.
ZEN

Citizen Jake

A cousin of my father's was struck by a truck at the weekend and was killed. My feeling on this is that the problem is more than just drinking and driving. People's behaviour behind the wheel leaves a lot to be desired.

The two things that really annoy me are tailgaiting and overtaking.

In the past two weeks I've had some terrible times from other drivers. I'm not a slow driver by any means and keep a good speed on the road, but I woudn't class myself as a speeder either. Myself and girlfriend were driving a relatively short trip (9 miles) home in the dark after visiting a relative. For most of the trip home some scumbag was tailgaiting me the whole way with high beams flashing all the time. It was a bendy twisty road and apart from being disconcerted (one second of distraction on a road like that could be fatal) I shudder to think how this was affecting drivers coming the other direction, and there were plenty.

Last night I was tailgated for about four miles by a Bus Eireann bus :eek: of all things, at one point the muppet driving it was within a metre of my car. I was going at a good pace and probably exceeded the speed limit. Still the gob****e was on my tail. Not sure whether he had human cargo or was hurrying home.

I can't even count the amount of times I've seen assholes overtake with oncoming traffic before tucking in at the last few seconds. This has happened in broad daylight.

Drink driving is no doubt a major factor but I think drivers everywhere in this country need to learn more consideration and patience. I don't want to die because some clown is in a hurry, has an attitude problem or thinks they're at Mondello Park.

zuutroy

Citizen Jake wrote:

Last night I was tailgated for about four miles by a Bus Eireann bus :eek: of all things, at one point the muppet driving it was within a metre of my car. I was going at a good pace and probably exceeded the speed limit. Still the gob****e was on my tail. Not sure whether he had human cargo or was hurrying home.
QUOTE]

Simple and hilarious solution: Wire a switch into your brake light circuit. When some ****er is 6ft behind you, and you're doing 100km/h, flip the switch and watch them **** themselves.

Henry Ford III

Citizen Jake wrote:

A cousin of my father's was struck by a truck at the weekend and was killed.

Very sorry to hear about this tragedy. May the unfortunate victim R.I.P.

ambro25

zuutroy wrote:

Simple and hilarious solution: Wire a switch into your brake light circuit. When some ****er is 6ft behind you, and you're doing 100km/h, flip the switch and watch them **** themselves.

Funnier still if your rear fogs are part of your rear light assemblies (at eye level or thereabouts, not tucked under bumper) and you wire'em into the switch. That's a whole sh1pot-full of red 'avoid-avoid-avoid' light in their face!

ta2kev

I agree totally with the overtaking thing, every day I witness the most dangerous overtaking manouvers and I only have a 20km journey each way on rural roads with an 80km/h speed limit which I always keep to. I get tail-gated and overtaken all the time doing this speed.

Drax

Citizen Jake wrote:

Simple and hilarious solution: Wire a switch into your brake light circuit. When some ****er is 6ft behind you, and you're doing 100km/h, flip the switch and watch them **** themselves.

ambro25 wrote:

Funnier still if your rear fogs are part of your rear light assemblies (at eye level or thereabouts, not tucked under bumper) and you wire'em into the switch. That's a whole sh1pot-full of red 'avoid-avoid-avoid' light in their face!

Yea, very funny lads - until the muppet who is tailgating hits his brakes in a panic situation and possibly loses control of his vehicle or causes other behind him to lose control.

I find lifting your foot off the throttle without brake lights usually gets the message across. That is until they are up your arse again a minute later :mad:

Anyone drive up the M1 in the mornings at all? You are guaranteed to have some nobjockey sitting about a foot from your rear bumper at some point in the journey. You are better off sitting in the left lane all the way up coz you'll still get there faster with with the right lane clogged.

ambro25

Drax wrote:

I find lifting your foot off the throttle without brake lights usually gets the message across. That is until they are up your arse again a minute later :mad:

Actually, I would have thought that there is a stronger likelihood of the said muppets ending up in your boot with your suggestion, than with 'fake' braking lights.

The very obvious reason being that if they are riding your bumper so close as to get into such panicked braking (your suggestion) the second they see brake lights, then surely they wouldn't either have time or distance to realise that your car is backing onto them (relatively, of course), since no obvious visual cues either.

Pot-Kettle-Black affair, tbh

And I'd rather they loose it behind me, with all unfortunate consequences that supposes (and tbh those behind such muppets should know better and allow further breaking distance as well!), than me having to brake because of something upfront and they then rear-ending me with the baby in the back :mad:

ZENER

What if the car that's tailgating you is a black golf TDI reg. no. 99-WW-XXX with 2 unrestrained kids - 2 unrestrained adults and "L" plates is it still a clever idea ?
Do you still think you are not responsible for those who suffer the consequences of your actions however righteous you feel your actions are ?

We've strayed off the original topic here somewhat lads.

What do you think is needed to make drivers understand that they are ultimately responsible for the welfare of their passangers and that by setting an example - wearing/enforcing seatbelt usage - thay could/will reduce injury in a collision ?

In the situation I opened the thread with, would you have taken it upon yourself to point out the error of their way or would you have been more fearful of being told to mind your own business ? The suggestion someone made of pointing out that one of the kids had "undone his belt" may not have worked in this instance because the parents seemed totally oblivious to the dangers they were putting their kids in. That said in other circumstances it's probably worth pointing out to a hassled parent/driver.

This thread is probably more suited to parenting in some ways tbh.

ZEN

ambro25

ZENER wrote:

What if the car that's tailgating you is a black golf TDI reg. no. 99-WW-XXX with 2 unrestrained kids - 2 unrestrained adults and "L" plates is it still a clever idea ?

Yes.

[most cynical mode] For the very simple reason that -in the context of my example- it's better to have 2 parents and 2 kids scared or worse, than 3 parents and 3 kids scared or worse.[/most cynical mode]

[realistic mode] For the simple reason that if I were to do as I suggested, (i) I wouldn't actually be braking and reducing the distance between the cars (whereas roads are full of vengeful do-badders who I'm quite certain would pile on the breaks 'for a lesson', and really endanger everyone involved).[/realistic mode]

ZENER wrote:

Do you still think you are not responsible for those who suffer the consequences of your actions however righteous you feel your actions are ?

Yes, in the context of the example given, I don't think I'm responsible. That's the 'PC brigade' rearing it's ugly head again. Again in the context of my example, I be responsible for (i) firstly everyone in my car, (ii) next, other road users ahead of me to whom I owe a duty of care (rules of the road, people) and eventually, and inasmuch as circumstance allow, (iii) people that follow me, who owe me their duty of care.

Anymore responsibility is to be had by legislators, the transport minister and Gardai. There's only so much responsibility that can be and has to be assumed a person, at which point begins the reponsibility that others owe to that person. I fail to see how someone tailgating me and putting my life and that of the occupants in my car at risk, is my responsibility. Likewise, I fail to see how the lack of due care and attention (not to mention potential lack control over the car) by a driver following me is my responsibility. Whether he or she has got unrestrained toddlers or the Pope in there with him/here. You can of course disagree, but please do indulge me and explain how and why...

ZENER wrote:

We've strayed off the original topic here somewhat lads.

Yup.

ZENER wrote:

What do you think is needed to make drivers understand that they are ultimately responsible for the welfare of their passangers and that by setting an example - wearing/enforcing seatbelt usage - thay could/will reduce injury in a collision ?

The Darwin Awards, tbh

Failing that, 'proper' driver training and scuppering of provisional licenses, which mechanism is not exactly conducting of respect (a) for other drivers (and I mean that from both angles: trainee and seasoned drivers), (b) for rules of the road ("learn at your own pace and grab all the bad habits (incl. tail-gating) over the years before getting some form of 'proper' tuition).

Common sense wouldn't go amiss, but from experience, there's an apparent total dearth of the stuff once most people get under way in their cars in this country Oh, and needless to say, you can't exactly teach that either

ZENER wrote:

In the situation I opened the thread with, would you have taken it upon yourself to point out the error of their way or would you have been more fearful of being told to mind your own business ?

Absolutely. I spent more time agonizing over which baby seats (plural - they have to be upgraded as the kids grow, people) to buy than over which car to buy.

ZENER wrote:

The suggestion someone made of pointing out that one of the kids had "undone his belt" may not have worked in this instance because the parents seemed totally oblivious to the dangers they were putting their kids in. That said in other circumstances it's probably worth pointing out to a hassled parent/driver.

Again, absolutely agree.

ZENER wrote:

This thread is probably more suited to parenting in some ways tbh.

I'd say it's as relevant to motors as it is to parenting. Either/or, but depending upon the kind of feedback you're (apparently) after, parenting might have been better indeed - there's only (young) petrolheads in here

ZENER

I think maybe you're right, I am fishing for a particular answer and therefore these are probably rhetorical questions I'm posing and the answers are what the reader sees in themselves.

If I had picked up a paper this morning and seen a picture of a road accident involving that car I'm not sure how I would feel. If we were all to look at how we would behave in a similar situation maybe we would be more aware of our actions and the effect they have on other road users.

I don't mean to get emotional/theatrical here but petrolheads or responsible parents we are all hopefully responsible "DRIVERS".

Still it would be interesting to see if I had originally posted this question in Parenting what type of response I would get from the same people being that the context was different, i.e. responsibility as parents rather than drivers. It's strange how many different roles were accupy through a typical day but driving seems to change us in ways other roles don't, making us ignore the most basic of human traits that seperate us from animals.

Are there rules regarding posting the same thing in 2 different forums ? Mods ?

ZEN

ambro25

Well, for what it's worth, you'd get the same replies from me (as a parent and driver, and more often than not both at the same time)

If I saw what you saw, I would also -definitely- have attempted to get them to buckle their kids up.

As a parent, my kid would always (i) be strapped in and (ii) be my utmost consideration/responsibility... even if circumstances dictate that I cause another driver to yellow and/or brown their pants or worse.

Hopefully it wouldn't come to that, as the lesson numero uno that any self-respecting 'driver' learns through hard experience through the years is to A-N-T-I-C-I-P-A-T-E (for what you see, for what you foresee through experience, and inasmuch as possible for what you can't).

jozi

Never taught about bringing it to peoples attention that someone in their car/van isnt wearing seatbelts. I see it often enough allong with every other person being on the phone.
I personally always use my seatbelt, like second nature, my parents all have and so have the rest of the family and as far as i remeber we have always been told to wear on to allong with being told to do so.

Some shocking posts here about road death, made me think about it different tbh.

Sorry to hear about one posters family member to have been in a accident.

Jozi

LFCFan

I'm surprised there hasn't been any 'I don't wear a seatbelt because in .1% of situations it might actually kill me' posts. There really are some idiots on our roads.

ambro25

LFCFan wrote:

I'm surprised there hasn't been any 'I don't wear a seatbelt because in .1% of situations it might actually kill me' posts. There really are some idiots on our roads.

sooo tempted

although i fail to see what choosing to wear a belt or not has to do with being an idiot on the road...

...or what that's got to do with the OP (kids strapped in/not), for that matter

Gurgle

LFCFan wrote:

I'm surprised there hasn't been any 'I don't wear a seatbelt because in .1% of situations it might actually kill me' posts. There really are some idiots on our roads.

The people who used to make those posts on every seatbelt thread are all dead or vegetablised.

zuutroy

Gurgle wrote:

The people who used to make those posts on every seatbelt thread are all dead or vegetablised.

I wasn't wearing a seatbelt when in a head on crash about 8 years ago. Both cars doing abt 40-45 mph. I remember the feeling of my head smashing the windscreen so well. Luckily it held up, and I ended up back in my seat. Being in a write-off car crash and living to tell the tell is acutally quite cool (and amazing that I wasn't hurt) Needless to say, I don't need to be told to wear a belt anymore!

kdevitt

I was involved in a relatively low speed accident in October 2004 - the seatbelt pulled my shoulder out enough for me to be still in physio to this day. Being honest, I probably wouldn't have had any severe injuries had I not been wearing it. (someone drove straight into my door) That said, I won't drive anywhere without the seatbelt on, and will have a go at anyone who sits in the back of my car without one too.