Non-Veggie beers

Nature Boy

I recently found out about isinglass and that Guinness and Smithwicks is not suitable for vegetarians. That pretty much means that I can't drink either of my two favorite drinks (The two most widely available anyway).

Just wondering what people think of the whole beer/wine thing. Do you care? How did you feel when you found out? I was very pissed off, telling an Irishman he can't drink Guinness anymore is very devistating!!

biko

I looked this up and got this: Beer brewed according to the Reinheitsgebot (German purity law) is not prohibited from using finings since it was generally assumed that finings were _not_present_ in the finished product. Then there shouldnt be a problem?

Nature Boy

I'm not sure what you're trying to say????? If it's not in the final product it's ok?

biko

What I'm trying to say is that if there is none (well, perhaps a miniscule amount) present in the actual beer you can still drink it? Or do you don't agree with the production process, trying to become a strict vegan? See mail below.

Mail from guinness.com by e-mail 2003/11/20......................

Hello,
Thank you for your e-mail.
ISINGLASS
All Guinness brands are free from animal matter and from contact with animal matter. However, isinglass, which is a by-product of the fishing industry, is used as a fining agent for settling out suspended matter in the vat. The isinglass is retained in the floor of the vat but it is possible that minute quantities might be carried over into the beer.

ALTERNATIVES
Production processes in the UK are subject to strict UK/EU legislation and at present isinglass is the only fining agent suitable for stout, which has been approved in the UK. Any new fining agent, especially synthetic substitutes, would not be approved for use without rigorous testing both in Europe and by the Food and Drug Administration (FDA) in the United States. As yet there are no suitable alternatives available.

FURTHER INFORMATION
You may wish to contact the Brewers and Licensed Retailers Association (former Brewers Society) for further information.
Tel No. - 0207 486 4831

With kind regards,
Freya Kelly
Guinness Communication Centre.

edit: Btw, Guinness doesn't really count as a Reinheitsgebot beer because of the use of roasted barley.

Nature Boy

So just because the isinglass isn't in the final product that means it's suitable for vegetarians? That doesn't make sence, a fish still has to die to make the beer. Is that not the same thing as eating the fish?

Tar.Aldarion

Vegetarians don't drink guinness, it's not vegetarian, it's not about being 'strict'. It doesn't matter if it is in the final roduct or not.
Same as marshmellows,gummi bears, loads of sweets etc.

biko

There are levels of vegitarianism, for instance my mum eats eggs and fish - ovo vegetarian I think. My sister is more strict, like proper veggie. However, neither are veggie because they love animals and that. It's a dietary choise.

I can see two sides. One says "No, I will not drink this because there may be parts of animal in it" - dietary, allergy etc This person will wear leather

Other says "No, I will not drink this because fish was killed as part of making this product" - lifestyle, PETA etc This person will not wear leather


Feck it, more stout for me

Peanut

The "approval of fining agents" line is bull****, Dublin Brewing Company fined their stout using Irish Moss (seaweed). I'm pretty sure there are a number of other alternatives, although they may have different properties.

I'm not especially happy about Isinglass in Guinness, but then again, it's not the best beer in the world either so *shrug*. For me, it's not that a fish died or whatever, it's just the mingness of putting fish bits into drink, even if it is highly processed.

I think the finings issue is a lot like the rennet in cheese, it's a complete bitch to try to be fully ISO 9000 vegetarian :rolleyes: with the lack of information, so pratically speaking you have to let it slide to an extent. Especially going abroad and trying to suss out what beer & cheese is vegetarian is rather impossible.

Having said all that, good vegetarian beers - Heineken export, Grolsh, Hoegaarden, Samuel Adams, misc. English bottled ales/lagers.

Unfortunately Dublin Brewing Company have shut up shop, they would be top of the list by a mile otherwise.

Anyone like to start a veggie homebrew collective?

Tar.Aldarion

biko wrote:

There are levels of vegitarianism, for instance my mum eats eggs and fish - ovo vegetarian I think. My sister is more strict, like proper veggie. However, neither are veggie because they love animals and that. It's a dietary choise.

Vegetarianism is defined as the practice of not eating meat, poultry or fish or their by-products, with or without the use of dairy products or eggs.
She is a pescatarian. She doesn't eat dairy products?

I can see two sides. One says "No, I will not drink this because there may be parts of animal in it" - dietary, allergy etc This person will wear leather

Kind of a vegetarian but not really, they are just somebody who doesn't eat meat.

Other says "No, I will not drink this because fish was killed as part of making this product" - lifestyle, PETA etc This person will not wear leather

A vegetarian.

Feck it, more stout for me

Wonder what guinness tastes like

Nature Boy

Just found out that the Carlow brewing company make stout suitable for veggies http://www.vegetarian.ie/bee.htm

They do a very nice stout, woopeeee!!

I've emailed Guinness before about isinglass. Let's group up on them!!

direbadger

Lads, lads, Guinneas doesn't contain isinglas anymore. It did up until quite recently but now they've changed over to filtration to get rid of the sediments from the stout. A friend of mine, an ex-vegan, got a letter from them about a year ago saying they don't use isinglas anymore.

Nature Boy

I emailed them recently and they said that they still do use it!!

The UK vegan society gave them an award 4 months ago for "products that could and should be vegan but aren’t"

http://www.vegansociety.com/phpws/index.php?module=announce&ANN_user_op=view&ANN_id=67

So if your friend got a mail from them, they were lying!!

Peanut

There was a story in one of the papers less than a year ago I think, about isinglass in Guinness (must have been a slow news day!!).

This would seem to confirm it, the article is from October last year, although the quotes may be out of date.

Doctor Benway

Anyone know what the story is with Bulmers? A bit of googling shows that there is a cider called Bulmers in the UK which seems to be vegetarian, but I don't know if it's the same Bulmers as the one that's brewed here.

Tar.Aldarion

Bulmers is the same drink in the UK, it's called magners there though. Same drink, different name.

direbadger

Nature Boy wrote:

I emailed them recently and they said that they still do use it!!

The UK vegan society gave them an award 4 months ago for "products that could and should be vegan but aren’t"

http://www.vegansociety.com/phpws/index.php?module=announce&ANN_user_op=view&ANN_id=67

So if your friend got a mail from them, they were lying!!

D'oh!
God, I hope Beamish (much nicer than Guinneas) is ok...

lostinsuperfunk

Bulmers is the same drink in the UK, it's called magners there though. Same drink, different name.

Confusingly, there is also a drink called Bulmer's in the UK which is not the same as Magner's or Irish-brewed Bulmer's. UK-brewed Bulmer's is not available here and it's a few years since I've even seen it in the UK, and never on draught, only in 2L flagons in the offy. It's not as nice as the Irish stuff from what I recall, although my memory may not serve correctly due to consumption of too many 2L flagons of cider in earlier life. Bulmers UK also makes Strongbow (yuk!) and Scrumpy Jack. http://www.bulmers.co.uk/

My guess is that the Clonmel people licensed the "Bulmer's" brand from the UK company years ago, then when they decided to start exporting it they had to change the name to Magner's outside of Ireland. I've no idea if Magner's/Irish Bulmer's is veggie though. http://www.magners.ie/

Doctor Benway

lostinsuperfunk wrote:

Confusingly, there is also a drink called Bulmer's in the UK which is not the same as Magner's or Irish-brewed Bulmer's. UK-brewed Bulmer's is not available here and it's a few years since I've even seen it in the UK, and never on draught, only in 2L flagons in the offy. It's not as nice as the Irish stuff from what I recall, although my memory may not serve correctly due to consumption of too many 2L flagons of cider in earlier life. Bulmers UK also makes Strongbow (yuk!) and Scrumpy Jack. http://www.bulmers.co.uk/

My guess is that the Clonmel people licensed the "Bulmer's" brand from the UK company years ago, then when they decided to start exporting it they had to change the name to Magner's outside of Ireland. I've no idea if Magner's/Irish Bulmer's is veggie though. http://www.magners.ie/

Cheers.

That was what I thought, which is why I was a bit confused. I know the UK Bulmers (i.e. the one called Bulmers in the UK, not the one called Magners) was veggie, but still none the wiser about the Bulmers (in Ireland) one.

I'll see if I can find an email for them, and ask.

Nature Boy

direbadger wrote:

D'oh!
God, I hope Beamish (much nicer than Guinneas) is ok...

Nope, unfortunately it ain't (As well as murphy's)

According to these lists anyway:

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/geraint.bevan/Vegetarian_beers.html
http://www.vegetarian.ie/bee.htm

Maybe (And hopefully) they've changed recently

I've emailed Beamish to find out

Al Katraz

Here's a list someone did for the UK.

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/geraint.bevan/Vegetarian_beers.html

And here's some info about isinglass:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isinglass

It comes from the swim bladder of the sturgeon or cod fish. Tbe eggs of the female sturgeon are what is eaten as caviar, so while you could call it a byproduct, the fish still dies when they cut it open. It's the same reason leather isn't great.

Here's some stuff about sturgeons in lakes in Wisconsin.

http://www.seagrant.wisc.edu/greatlakesfish/lakesturgeon.html