Unraised pot, top two, scary board, multi-way pot

fuzzbox

10/20 6-max - Party.

This is a toughie boys, I think every street is questionable.

Hero (4.6k) is CO with KcJc
Villain (2.5k) is BB

I've seen villain be passive with a draw, even oop, but I have not really seen what he has when he gets aggressive. So I am totally unsure what to do here.

Preflop
1 limper, hero limps (sometimes I raise, sometimes I limp, this time I limped), blinds play - 4-way action.

Flop (80)
Kd Jh Td
Checked to hero - who bets 60, SB calls, and villain makes it 160 from the BB (cue warning bells). Im really not sure if this is a made str8, or something like KT. I would be fairly surprised to see TT/JJ/KK here, but it would not be the first time). Hero just calls, SB folds.

Turn (460)
4h (no change)
Villain bets 200 .... what the hell do I do with this?
Hero just calls (still dont know if I have the best hand, but dont really see any reason to raise yet).

River (860)
7d (right so, he should check now ... right?)
Villain bets 500 .... all options seem like they are good - fold/raise/call ?

ianmc38

fuzzbox wrote:

10/20 6-max - Party.

This is a toughie boys, I think every street is questionable.

Hero (4.6k) is CO with KcJc
Villain (2.5k) is BB

I've seen villain be passive with a draw, even oop, but I have not really seen what he has when he gets aggressive. So I am totally unsure what to do here.

Preflop
1 limper, hero limps (sometimes I raise, sometimes I limp, this time I limped), blinds play - 4-way action.

Flop (80)
Kd Jh Td
Checked to hero - who bets 60, SB calls, and villain makes it 160 from the BB (cue warning bells). Im really not sure if this is a made str8, or something like KT. I would be fairly surprised to see TT/JJ/KK here, but it would not be the first time). Hero just calls, SB folds.

Turn (460)
4h (no change)
Villain bets 200 .... what the hell do I do with this?
Hero just calls (still dont know if I have the best hand, but dont really see any reason to raise yet).

River (860)
7d (right so, he should check now ... right?)
Villain bets 500 .... all options seem like they are good - fold/raise/call ?

Well if you called on the turn, then you must at least call on the river unless you were hoping to hit a boat on the river?

fuzzbox

ianmc38 wrote:

Well if you called on the turn, then you must at least call on the river unless you were hoping to hit a boat on the river?

Now why do I have to do that?

Norwich Fan Rob

i dont like the river diamond, he could have something like Qx diamonds.
i certainly wouldnt raise the river, if he has no history of plays/bluffs id say u were beat.
with u flat calling each street, he would hate that river if he had AQ or a set.
looks like he made a flush to me, probably with a str8 draw or some pair also.

careca

Tricky one. I don't think he has the flush, the min raise on the flop doesn't seem like a flush draw. I also dont think he has the str8 as he would surely bet more on the turn to price out anyone drawing to the flush. So a set or two pair for me.

I certainly wouldnt fold, and its a possibility that a pot reraise could get him to lay down the hand (you might easily have played the flush draw the same way and he has to give you credit for it).

But I would be inclined to call here as the safer option .

ianmc38

fuzzbox wrote:

Now why do I have to do that?

Well what was your mindset when you called on the turn? Did you think you were ahead? You obviously wern't calling for a J/K.

What was your plan for the river if say it was a rag that didnt help any posible draws? Check-call? Check-raise? Check-fold?

Though, looking at the hand again now, 8d9d would actually be a strong possibility as he had a huge draw to raise with on the flop.

fuzzbox

ianmc38 wrote:

Well what was your mindset when you called on the turn? Did you think you were ahead? You obviously wern't calling for a J/K.

What was your plan for the river if say it was a rag that didnt help any posible draws? Check-call? Check-raise? Check-fold?

For me the 7d is a good card for you, as it's unlilkely to have helped him.

And yet he bets 500.

ianmc38

fuzzbox wrote:

And yet he bets 500.

You replied as I was rereading and editting The 7d was a horrible card for you.

ianmc38

Your read on the villain is that he doesn't bet a draw strongly, yet he's fired two bullets on the flop and the turn. If your read is correct, then the 7d is unlikely to have helped him, as he probably has the same hand now that he had on the turn.

If he has a made hand, it could be

1. A flopped straight (would he be likely to play this so aggressively?)
2. A flopped set
3. Overpair
4. TP TK
5. 2 pair

Whats his normal raising range preflop? I'd assume he would raise with AA/KK/JJ/TT/AQ/AK??? If he'd raise with these, we can rule out 1-4 above

That leaves just 5. two pair in our range of likely holdings. Without knowing the villain, many people like to limp with JT/KT, so two pair here is certainly possible.

If he has a big hand(this includes 2 pair), his flop bet looks like he's trying to chase off draws. Turn could be a weak continuation bet cos of a missed draw(we already know he doesn't bet a draw, so we can usually rule this out), so therefore, we might assume that he's happy enough to give a drawing hand 3-1 to call.

River comes with another diamond. base don how this guy plays draws, i think this is another continuation bet for someone playing two pair. So I come over the top(probably going broke in the process

fuzzbox

Woooaaahhh there tiger.

He is in the blinds. He can have anything. He can have Q9, he could easily check AQ in the blinds or TT I guess being that he is out of position.

If you raise - do you believe you are bluffing, or that you have the best hand?

handsfree

raise him all in. i'd be fairly confident of being ahead at this stage and if he has K 10 then you've missed an opportunity to knock him out.

Bandana boy

I dont think you can/should come over the top
your ahead of a bluff and KT jt
Passive players will often flat call with TT JJ preflop so this is a very strong possibility
While QX diamonds is also a strong possibility for the re-raise even from Ghandi
I think a re-raise on the turn gives you a cheaper answer to wether he has a straight or not.
If you have called the turn i think you call the river but you shouldnt

fuzzbox

handsfree wrote:

raise him all in. i'd be fairly confident of being ahead at this stage and if he has K 10 then you've missed an opportunity to knock him out.

Its not a tourney - he wont get knocked out. Its a cash game.

What do you think he will CALL a raise with?

DapperGent

On the river you look remarkably like you could have just made your flush and I think it unlikely that the villan would check raise a flush draw OOP. So running a bluff is certainly an option. I don't see him putting in the $500 on the river with a hand that you currently beat so I don't like a call very much, I think KT and JT are more likely to check/call at that point.

Faced with decision I would have thought set or straight from the flop, small chance of a flush draw that got there and chickened out of the $1500 bluff given that I'm getting called if he's flushing and there's too high a chance he'll call my bluff with the set/straight.

Fold for me.

handsfree

sorry thought it was a tournie. if cash game he probably has j x diamonds and id fold

fuzzbox

handsfree wrote:

sorry thought it was a tournie. if cash game he probably has j x diamonds and id fold

How does the change in type of game, suddenly change his hand?

Bandana boy

People are more likely to bluff in tourneys as it is not real cash ???

careca

This isn't a "I was the villian post" is it and you had flopped the nuts with the AQd

Bandana boy

Cheapest decision is a 300 raise on turn i feel
He calls he is drawing he raises your dead

fuzzbox

Bandana boy wrote:

People are more likely to bluff in tourneys as it is not real cash ???

With stacks this deep, tourney and cash play pretty similar. You just dont often get stacks this deep in tourney.

Bandana boy

Are we happy that raising River is bad and we are down to call/fold

handsfree

fuzzbox wrote:

How does the change in type of game, suddenly change his hand?

cash games have a totally different strategy to tournaments. people play hands differently based on this fact.

fuzzbox

Bandana boy wrote:

Cheapest decision is a 300 raise on turn i feel
He calls he is drawing he raises your dead

300 does not price him out if he is drawing. Pot is 460 + his 200 = 660. If I make it 500 to go, then pot is 1160 and he has to pay 300 for the price. Thats almost 4:1 ... and he will never fold a draw (and never be making a mistake).

If he has a good draw, then he might try to semi-bluff me out, and I cant call.

Raising the turn is not ideal, especially to that price. If I raise, I make it at least 900 to play. .... and thats not cheaper.

fuzzbox

Bandana boy wrote:

Are we happy that raising River is bad and we are down to call/fold

Like I said - all three options are valid

1. Fold - he said he has the best hand 3 times, maybe we can believe him
2. Call - he said he has the best hand, but we have a better one enough times to make a call show profit
3. Raise - he has the best hand, but our hand really looks like a flush, so we can blow him off his best hand with a raise.

If we raise, then I believe we are bluffing.

ianmc38

fuzzbox wrote:

Woooaaahhh there tiger.

He is in the blinds. He can have anything. He can have Q9, he could easily check AQ in the blinds or TT I guess being that he is out of position.

If you raise - do you believe you are bluffing, or that you have the best hand?

I don't think he has a a flopped straight because he has bet more than the pot on the flop. If he's hit a monster this would be an unusual way to play it, even with 2 diamonds on the board. I also feel that TT-AA, he'd raise from the BB, so i think we have to rule a set out here.

AK, i think he'd raise from the BB, AQ, probably a mix of limps and raises, but again i dont think he'd play it so aggresisvely on the flop.

I think you are ahead on every street here and that a large raise over the top will put him off his hand, as a passive drawer will not fire bets on two streets like the villain has done.

Raise over the top and you take him off worse two pair or a straight as he's afraid of the flush.

fuzzbox

ianmc38 wrote:

I don't think he has a a flopped straight because he has bet more than the pot on the flop. If he's hit a monster this would be an unusual way to play it, even with 2 diamonds on the board.

This is not true - I bet 60 into an 80 pot, the SB called, and then villain (the BB) made it 160 to play. A pot raise would make it 300 to play.

I also feel that TT-AA, he'd raise from the BB, so i think we have to rule a set out here.

Ok - this is true quite often

AK, i think he'd raise from the BB, AQ, probably a mix of limps and raises, but again i dont think he'd play it so aggresisvely on the flop.

Why not play AQ aggressively on the flop?

I think you are ahead on every street here and that a large raise over the top will put him off his hand, as a passive drawer will not fire bets on two streets like the villain has done.

If I am ahead, then why do I raise?

Raise over the top and you take him off worse two pair or a straight as he's afraid of the flush.

So I am bluffing if I raise.

handsfree

fuzzbox wrote:

With stacks this deep, tourney and cash play pretty similar. You just dont often get stacks this deep in tourney.

in that case raise all in

Bandana boy

I know your not making him lay down and you dont know enough to force the issue yet on the Turn
I think the raise gives you some info to tackle the river card.
If he re-raises into this pot i feel he has either made his hand or is certain of what you have.
As last thing he wants is you coming back over for all his stack and he is looking for a Diamond
I remember board is just a scary to all his drawing hands

So a re-raise of 300 you know your answer wether its a straight or not

Then you know if he bets out on river your likely dead unless he paid all that with 89 which you might be able to bluff with

fuzzbox

Ok - enough - on with the results.

On the flop - a really small check raise like that is quite weird. I still thought I might have the best hand, and I might outdraw him if I did not, and it was farily cheap, so I called.

The turn was the weird one - he bet really small. It just looked like a tempter bet, asking me to raise him so he could fire all his chips in. Of course, it could also have been a "let me see a river for cheap" bet. But when he check/raises two players I have to give him some respect. Still - I could still have the best hand so I called.

Then the river came. I thought to myself "he should normally check now, and I can decide to check or bluff". Then he bet, and it was not a small bet. Since my play looked so much like a flush draw, I found it weird that he would bet so strongly here.

I passed, as the only hands that I beat were KT and JT, and I just thought that he would look me up too much to try to bluff ... and I might be trying to bluff into the nuts.

ianmc38

fuzzbox wrote:

This is not true - I bet 60 into an 80 pot, the SB called, and then villain (the BB) made it 160 to play. A pot raise would make it 300 to play.

Apologies misread that. i thought he raised 160. That makes this hand far more treacherous.

fuzzbox wrote:

Why not play AQ aggressively on the flop?

Again, this is my misreading of the above. i thought he potted it on the flop. His bet seems perfectly logical for the made nut straight.

fuzzbox wrote:

If I am ahead, then why do I raise?

To extract more money. Kind of self explanatory really.

fuzzbox wrote:

So I am bluffing if I raise

Now i feel you are bluffing and I think a good raise here will take the pot down.

Bandana boy

I think a raise to extract more money is very optimistic that a worse hand will call you on that board

ianmc38

Bandana boy wrote:

I think a raise to extract more money is very optimistic that a worse hand will call you on that board

No he asked "why raise when im ahead."

the answer to this question is when you are ahead you raise to get more money.

In this situation a raise will never get paid off unless the villain folds, as I think we can be pretty certain the villain is ahead right now.

Bandana boy

ianmc38 wrote:

No he asked "why raise when im ahead."

the answer to this question is when you are ahead you raise to get more money.

In this situation a raise will never get paid off unless the villain folds, as I think we can be pretty certain the villain is ahead right now.

I am not sure the question was why choose the option to raise in a game of poker

Was more if I am ahead on this board why raise
The answer is of course i shouldnt raise if i think i am ahead i only raise if i think i am behind

ianmc38

Bandana boy wrote:

I am not sure the question was why choose the option to raise in a game of poker

Ah

fuzzbox

ianmc38 wrote:

No he asked "why raise when im ahead."

the answer to this question is when you are ahead you raise to get more money.

In this situation a raise will never get paid off unless the villain folds, as I think we can be pretty certain the villain is ahead right now.

This is an interesting point, that is quite important in Big Bet poker games.

When villain bets the river - if I think I am ahead but cannot see that villain would call a raise with any hand that I beat (that is - if I raise, he folds his bluffs, and folds KT and JT), then I should not raise, as the raise is -EV (he will not call with worse hands, so there is no point - but if I am wrong, and I am behind, well then he will call and I will lose more).

If I think I am behind - however, then I might get him to lay down the best hand by raising (if he has a str8 or a set).

.

If I believe I have the best hand then I should just call.
If I beleive that I have the worst hand AND that he will fold then I should raise.

Kinda counter-intuitive

Hectorjelly

I think you should push the river, I think its very unlikely that the villain has a flush draw, he probably doesnt put you on it (but will if you push river) and the river was a half value bet/half blocking bet. (if you know him better than this ignore this obv) I have no idea if your beaten or not, but I would probably fold the flop to a tight opponent.

If you do push and get called it should do wonders for your image.

fixer

I think this guy had AdQx.

fuzzbox

I think he had AdQd

fuzzbox

Hectorjelly wrote:

I think you should push the river, I think its very unlikely that the villain has a flush draw, he probably doesnt put you on it (but will if you push river) and the river was a half value bet/half blocking bet. (if you know him better than this ignore this obv) I have no idea if your beaten or not, but I would probably fold the flop to a tight opponent.

If you do push and get called it should do wonders for your image.

I should probably fold the flop.

Pushing might do wonders for my image, but probably wont do wonders for my bankroll .

FastMachine

I think you're beaten here 9 times out of 10. There are so many hands that are ahead. The only hand that I can see that you beat on the flop and turn that would bet like this is a semi-bluff flush draw and now there's another diamond on the river. He probably had you from the flop with a straight, but AdQd/AdJd are very likely too with that betting pattern. Theres also the possiblity that he had a straight with a flush draw - Qd10d.

I think it was a fold on the flop. Top two pair is the payoff hand on this board.