can this system work?

ditpoker

i was watching my mate play the $30 freeroll on PPP earlier today and he googled something to do with slansky (sorry cant find link at the moment) and he found some tournament system for amateur players which is pretty much all in or fold.

In effect the system is.
If the pot has been raised push all in with -
Aces
Kings
Ace King Suited.

If the pot has not been raised push all in with - Any buried pair
Any suited connector higher than 34
Any suited ace

I was pretty sure this hadn't a chance at working... but i was surprised. in the $30 freeroll my friend pretty much played 8 hands, all buried pairs, and on i think 7 occasions he doubled up with his buried pair holding out against over cards, or holding a higher pair. Eventually he got knocked out when his 10,9suited ran into KK. Out of 607 players he finished 31st and was 11th in chips when he went out here.

Usually I reckon he'd have folded the 10,9 but was adhering strictly to the rules of the system, including folding QQ to a minimum raise in his big blind.

On Thursday we're gonna stick a random person into our DIT tournament to play this style and see if it works in a live game.

Anyway, I'm curious to see if anyone thinks this method can work on a regular basis or did my mate just get very lucky, for example his pairs always holding out against 2 over cards in the classic coin flip situation...

all thoughts welcome....

shoutman

To be honest I think this system is a load of bollox.

People soon enough are going to be able to put the player on a hand, (granted they wont know if its aces or suited connectors)

People will probably just start folding around so all the player collects is the blinds.

Inevitably the player will be in a lot of coin flip positions so if he was to win the tournement he would need an awful lot of luck.

In essence its really poker for dummys but I cant see it proving successfull unless playing against total fish (as your friend obviously was if they doubled him up seven out of eight times.... ahh yes freeroll sorry)

Thats my two cents.

Hectorjelly

With shortish stacks this is pretty close to optium play, all thats missing is playing mid high pairs

shoutman

Hectorjelly wrote:

With shortish stacks this is pretty close to optium play, all thats missing is playing mid high pairs

But this is never going to workout in a proper live event, like the one we are having on thursday.

ditpoker

i think he benefited hugely from constantly being moved table so no-one got the benefit of "knowing his style". I think if he had taken teh suited connectors out he'd have easily made the money. Dont think you can win a tourney with this style but maybe get very far.

(for those keeping score - the player in question is another damn student, this time of trinity fame... this is what ChipLdr is teaching them over there!! )

But this is never going to workout in a proper live event, like the one we are having on thursday.

you're assuming our event is a proper tournament!!! LOL

ntlbell

I watched this online a few months back, i think it was a 9 seater stt on stars
where he used it. For a freeroll or any sort of short stacked crapshoot it's really the only way there is to play.

Hectorjelly

shoutman wrote:

But this is never going to workout in a proper live event, like the one we are having on thursday.

oh a live event where you play proper poker as opposed to this online nonsense

ditpoker

Hectorjelly wrote:

oh a live event where you play proper poker as opposed to this online nonsense

LOL!!

Exactly! in a live event you cant throw a coffee cup against a wall and shout "F**KING PADDY POWER!!"

shoutman

Hectorjelly wrote:

oh a live event where you play proper poker as opposed to this online nonsense

What i ment by that was, that a proper live event with decent chip stacks, blind levels etc. where its not optimum to play like that from the start of play.

ntlbell

ditpoker wrote:

LOL!!

Exactly! in a live event you cant throw a coffee cup against a wall and shout "F**KING PADDY POWER!!"

no wall paper in the squat?

Hectorjelly

shoutman wrote:

What i ment by that was, that a proper live event with decent chip stacks, blind levels etc. where its not optimum to play like that from the start of play.

So you mean like no tournament held regularly in dublin then

ditpoker

ntlbell wrote:

no wall paper in the squat?

cant afford it!!

shoutman

Hectorjelly wrote:

So you mean like no tournament held regularly in dublin then

I play purely for fun with the biggest buy in being oscars thirty euro games on a sunday. I'm quite happy with value for money and I dont think that this proposed system wouldn't work in a tournement such as that.

(Edit) I said would when I ment wouldn't, However i'm thinking I might give it a go, just to see how it goes. One hell of a boring way to play poker though.

ntlbell

shoutman wrote:

I play purely for fun with the biggest buy in being oscars thirty euro games on a sunday. I'm quite happy with value for money and I dont think that this proposed system would work in a tournement such as that.

in oscars game?

i dunno, it's only 30e give it a go and see

Mr. Flibble

ditpoker wrote:

in the $30 freeroll my friend pretty much played 8 hands, all buried pairs, and on i think 7 occasions he doubled up with his buried pair holding out against over cards, or holding a higher pair.

The odds winning 7 out of 7 all-in coinflips is 1/(2^7) = 0.78%. He got pretty lucky.

All in is bad - if you manage to get all in with AA seven times vs an underpair you only have about a 20% chance of getting out alive (you'll probably be in quite a healthy position if you survive tho )

edit: but if a complete amateur was playing pros this may be their best strategy.

ntlbell

Mr. Flibble wrote:

The odds winning 7 out of 7 all-in coinflips is 1/(2^7) = 0.78%. He got pretty lucky.

All in is bad - if you manage to get all in with AA seven times vs an underpair you only have about a 20% chance of getting out alive (you'll probably be in quite a healthy position if you survive tho )

edit: but if a complete amateur was playing pros this may be their best strategy.

They're not all coin flips tho, then lets say you win your first 2, you've trippled up, even if you do loose one, your still in good shape, i'm not advocating it, there's just alot more to it.

Hectorjelly

Mr. Flibble wrote:

All in is bad - if you manage to get all in with AA seven times vs an underpair you only have about a 20% chance of getting out alive (you'll probably be in quite a healthy position if you survive tho )

Please please stop with this nonsense - if you double up 7 times you will probably win the tournament

Hectorjelly

shoutman wrote:

I play purely for fun with the biggest buy in being oscars thirty euro games on a sunday. I'm quite happy with value for money and I dont think that this proposed system would work in a tournement such as that.

im not saying a guy playing the system is likely to win, but they will be playing better than a substantial proportion of the field.

Mr. Flibble

HJ and NTL, I know this. I'm just saying if you were all in.

Often people play a tournament just waiting for big pairs and getting drained the rest of the time. They'll get them all in shortish stacked a number of times with the best hand, but get outdrawn and think they were unlucky - when they were not and when they get their AA outdrawn they think they were unlucky when it was actually inevitable.

Hectorjelly

Mr. Flibble wrote:

HJ and NTL, I know this. I'm just saying if you were all in.

Oh i thought you meant if one was all in, apologies for the confusion

fuzzbox

shoutman wrote:

I play purely for fun with the biggest buy in being oscars thirty euro games on a sunday. I'm quite happy with value for money and I dont think that this proposed system would work in a tournement such as that.

Au contraire.

fuzzbox

Mr. Flibble wrote:

The odds winning 7 out of 7 all-in coinflips is 1/(2^7) = 0.78%. He got pretty lucky.

All in is bad - if you manage to get all in with AA seven times vs an underpair you only have about a 20% chance of getting out alive (you'll probably be in quite a healthy position if you survive tho )

edit: but if a complete amateur was playing pros this may be their best strategy.

Please note that its only an all-in coin flop IF YOU GET CALLED.

This is rather important.

sleepypriest

This is simular to the strategies discussed in the book "Kill Phil" its not quite as basic as that. there are strict requirements on the hands you play when you play them, what the previous action has been etc.

But basically it is all in or fold ( the basic level)

there are 2 other levels which expand on this theory futher it is a good book.
I haven't strictly followed it in live tournaments yet but have practised with it online in freerolls to some degree of success.

fixer

This system is described in Harrington on HoldEm. There a few more details than in the original post, but I don't have the book handy. It's designed to take the skill advantage away from experienced players by removing post-flop play under favourably conditions to the rookie.

Culchie

sleepypriest wrote:

This is simular to the strategies discussed in the book "Kill Phil" its not quite as basic as that. there are strict requirements on the hands you play when you play them, what the previous action has been etc.

But basically it is all in or fold ( the basic level)

there are 2 other levels which expand on this theory futher it is a good book.
I haven't strictly followed it in live tournaments yet but have practised with it online in freerolls to some degree of success.

You beat me to it Sleepy;)

This strategy is 'Kill Phil' strategy.

pokypoky

I think this system is described in that tournament book by Sklansky. He was asked by a casino owner in Vegas to tutor his daughter because he wanted her to play the world series main event as a present. He had a week to prepare her so instead of bothering with advanced strategy and complicated plays like is done on here he came up with this system. The father tried it out in a world series event before the main tournament and won! The daughter bombed on the first day but only because she ran into aces, but it was always going to happen.

BigDragon

Culchie wrote:

You beat me to it Sleepy;)

This strategy is 'Kill Phil' strategy.

No its not!! The 'Kill Phil' Strategy is different in its application. Sklanksy's was for a complete novice in a very large field. KP is for nullifying (sp) 'low ball' advanced players by pressurising them to put their tournament lives at risk with marginal hands. Try that in the Fitz!!

Taking the KP strategy and adding it into a 'low ball' game works well against very aggressive players and is more affective in a live game.

Culchie

BigDragon wrote:

No its not!! The 'Kill Phil' Strategy is different in its application. Sklanksy's was for a complete novice in a very large field. KP is for nullifying (sp) 'low ball' advanced players by pressurising them to put their tournament lives at risk with marginal hands. Try that in the Fitz!!

Taking the KP strategy and adding it into a 'low ball' game works well against very aggressive players and is more affective in a live game.

Boo hoo, I'm on page 10 .... I was wondering what would be in the other 180 pages:v:

sleepypriest

The strategy as per the op is simular to the 1st strategy mentioned in the kp book for absolute novices, which is basically "the system" as described by Sklansky. The op is not simular to the expert KP strategy.

Glad we cleared that up

gerry87

If anyones interested here is the system from sklansky on tournament poker.

1. You add the small blind and the big blind and divide it into your stack or if your chip leader the next highest guy. Thats your "magic number".
2. Then you add up the players still to act and multiply it by your magic number.
3.Then you add up the number of limpers in the pot + 1. And multiply it to the answer you got for 2.

He gives a chart in his book. If someone raises before you only go all in with AA, KK or AKs, otherwise dump.

If the number you get is >400 only go in with Aces

If between 200 and 400 go with KK or AA.

150-200 go in with AA, KK, QQ or AK

100-150 -AA, KK, QQ, JJ, TT, AK, AQ, KQ

80-100 -Any pair, AK, AK, KQ, Axs, any no gap suited connector down to 54.

60-80 - Any pair, any ace, KQ, Kxs, any suited connector with one gap or no gap.

40-60 -All of the above plus Kx

20-40 -All above plus any 2 suited cards.

<20 - Any two cards


I thought the system was pretty genius. I did it in a few cheap STT's and finished second in a couple of them... It didnt have me going in on many hands early on. The only problem i found with it was when it gets down to less players your basically going all in every hand with any two cards.

Norwich Fan Rob

nothing wrong with that gerry..

surely the model outlined in the first post would be useless for shorthanded, large blind play, as u wont catch enough big hands.

it might work 9/10 handed though, although if someone knew u were doing this, they cant let u have a few small blinds, then trap your 44/78 etc with a big pair.

hotspur

Hmm I've never Sklansky's chart before. So...
STT 6 players left you are UTG, $1,500 stack, blind 100/200 and you have 27s...
1500 / 300 = 5, 5 still to act 5x5 = 25, no limpers yet so 25 is your number which puts it at "20-40 -All above plus any 2 suited cards." So you're going all in? Have I messed up the calculations / missing something? Doesn't seem that clever.

fuzzbox

hotspur wrote:

Hmm I've never Sklansky's chart before. So...
STT 6 players left you are UTG, $1,500 stack, blind 100/200 and you have 27s...
1500 / 300 = 5, 5 still to act 5x5 = 25, no limpers yet so 25 is your number which puts it at "20-40 -All above plus any 2 suited cards." So you're going all in? Have I messed up the calculations / missing something? Doesn't seem that clever.

Blinds are pretty big in relation to your stack here. If you win uncontested, then you add 20% to your stack.

Its hard to call, because you still have chips, and if you do get called, you might just get lucky.

The bigger the blinds are in relation to stacks, the more chances you take in order to grab them. Sounds good to me.

gerry87

hotspur wrote:

Hmm I've never Sklansky's chart before. So...
STT 6 players left you are UTG, $1,500 stack, blind 100/200 and you have 27s...
1500 / 300 = 5, 5 still to act 5x5 = 25, no limpers yet so 25 is your number which puts it at "20-40 -All above plus any 2 suited cards." So you're going all in? Have I messed up the calculations / missing something? Doesn't seem that clever.

Pretty much... though i'm not sure if your supposed to count the blinds as limpers or still to act. If you count them as limpers you get 75, meaning you wouldnt go for it.

DubTony

I've played against guys doing this. I thought they got the system from a book called KillTony :mad:

gerry87 wrote:

1. You add the small blind and the big blind and divide it into your stack or if your chip leader the next highest guy. Thats your "magic number".
2. Then you add up the players still to act and multiply it by your magic number.
3.Then you add up the number of limpers in the pot + 1. And multiply it to the answer you got for 2.

And don't forget to bring your calculators.