What's your play?

Culchie

ok, here's the hand.

Fitz Double chance, 2nd last table, 16 or so left.

I have 4100 chips, blinds are 150/300, I am on the button with 10 J suited
I'd like to raise, but there was a limper in EP, and I'm pretty wary of him, so I just call.
The small blind (10000, solid) raises it to 1200, BB shortstack calls and is all in, as does the EP limper (table chip leader, trappy type, knows how to play)...... My Image would be very tight, I've been in the same seat all night.

What's my play?

spectre

I'd fold here. J 10 suited is a nice hand if you can get in cheap. With this much preflop action you're most likely against Big Aces which leave you dominated or pairs which you are behind.
TBH, I don't see how you could contemplate doing anything else

Hectorjelly

spectre wrote:

I'd fold here. J 10 suited is a nice hand if you can get in cheap. With this much preflop action you're most likely against Big Aces which leave you dominated or pairs which you are behind.
TBH, I don't see how you could contemplate doing anything else

LOL - firstly big aces do not dominate JTs

You have to call this raise, or drive home in a girly car and listen to the corrs

5starpool

spectre wrote:

I'd fold here. J 10 suited is a nice hand if you can get in cheap. With this much preflop action you're most likely against Big Aces which leave you dominated or pairs which you are behind.
TBH, I don't see how you could contemplate doing anything else

once you didnt raise preflop u can get away from it, so fold to the action. 150/300 with 2 tables left?????

spectre

LOL - firstly big aces do not dominate JTs

Ok you're domiated by AJ and A 10 and you're behind AK and AQ. Happy now?

Culchie

5starpool wrote:

150/300 with 2 tables left?????

yup, blinds just about to go up

The C Kid

You can't fold here, ever.

5starpool

Were there not many runners? 150/300 is only 2 levels after the break. Mad. usually that tournament still has 2 full tables left at 800/1500!!

spectre

You can't fold here, ever.

Please explain

Culchie

5starpool wrote:

Were there not many runners? 150/300 is only 2 levels after the break. Mad. usually that tournament still has 2 full tables left at 800/1500!!

I'd say about 40 runners Dom, football I suppose.

ntlbell

The C Kid wrote:

You can't fold here, ever.

mmm sure you can, a Raise, an all in and a call?

you have 300 invested course you can fold.

*puts on the corrs*

The C Kid

Well assuming that the shortstack all-in was for an amount near the original 1200 raise, then you are being offered 4.3/1 with a hand that plays very well multi-handed.

You will still have just under 10BBs if you call and lose, and will still have a playable stack. While some people may view limping as have being a mistake, you will just compound this "error" if you fold.

Hectorjelly

You have to call because the pot is now huge and you are closing the action getting a great price. Added to that the all in player is a big help as it means you are unlikely to be bluffed and you are more likely to see all 5 cards.

If you somehow knew you were up against AA you would still call.

Gholimoli

Hectorjelly wrote:

You have to call because the pot is now huge and you are closing the action getting a great price. Added to that the all in player is a big help as it means you are unlikely to be bluffed and you are more likely to see all 5 cards.

If you somehow knew you were up against AA you would still call.

what an analysis .excellent.
i would have suggested the call here as well but the thothought of the player being all in hence no bluffs and getting the extra value of free cards to fill the draws ,would have never crossed my mind.

padser

Gholimoli wrote:

what an analysis .excellent.
i would have suggested the call here as well but the thothought of the player being all in hence no bluffs and getting the extra value of free cards to fill the draws ,would have never crossed my mind.

ditto.

ntlbell

Gholimoli wrote:

what an analysis .excellent.
i would have suggested the call here as well but the thothought of the player being all in hence no bluffs and getting the extra value of free cards to fill the draws ,would have never crossed my mind.

Yeah forgot about that myself.

pokypoky

i presume the turnout was crap cause of the even crapper liverpool match... how can u fold J 10 here it makes no sense whatsoever, just think of the straight that ur gonna flop, everyone else has a piece of it and u quadruple up....happy days.

fuzzbox

You toss your hand into the muck and move on to the next hand.

fuzzbox

The C Kid wrote:

Well assuming that the shortstack all-in was for an amount near the original 1200 raise, then you are being offered 4.3/1 with a hand that plays very well multi-handed.

You will still have just under 10BBs if you call and lose, and will still have a playable stack. While some people may view limping as have being a mistake, you will just compound this "error" if you fold.

This is fallacy. JTs plays well multi-handed WHEN IMPLIED ODDS ARE GOOD.

There are no real implied odds here, and you may well be suffering from reverse implied odds.

fixer

I'm in the HJ camp on this one. 900 to call into a 4k pot, closing the betting, with the button, with a decent multi-way draw?

I hate the Coors. I call every time.

ianmc38

This is an autocall as you are getting great odds with a good drawing hand.

Culchie

Hmmmm ... very diverse opinions here from very respected players.

Firstly, I was obviously getting reasonable odds to call .... so the "How could you not call that?" or "autocall" type answers simply based on that are a little bit too simplistic.
If I thought it was simple as that, I wouldn't have bothered trying to get boardsters advice.
I obviously wasn't sure about this hand whilst thinking about it driving home, and decided to use the forum to get a feel what you folks think.


Here was my thought process, right or wrong, here it is anyway.

I wanted to raise from the button, but knew that the shortstacked BB would have to call, giving the early limper (who I was already wary of) the odds and the opportunity to re-raise me all in if he so wished, so that's why I just called initially.

So after just calling from the button, the solid SB raises to 1200, BB calls all in for 1200, and the EP limper also calls.
I briefly thought about pushing with my remaining 3800, as my image would have been tight, however I ruled that out, as my two remaining opponents were both well stacked, and would only be another 2600 each to them, so I was sure they both would have called (the solid BB player had a hand I felt, the limper had the big stack, and again would have had great odds, especially if the SB did indeed call as expected).

So with my two remaining opponents being well stacked, I was getting reasonable odds to call approx 4/1, I knew that.

However it was the reverse implied odds that came to my mind. With the action that had taken place, I felt that many of the overcards out to help me with a straight were gone, and even if I hit the flop, any of my helping cards would also be of benefit to any opponent with drawing overcards as well.
I also didn't like the fact one little bit that a call leaves me with just 6.5BB left (blinds up next hand) and the 2 large stacks were still in the hand.

So I folded my J 10, (and I hated the Corrs before now anyway)

The flop would have hit me in the face coming J 10 6 rainbow, turn was 2 as the river 5. The bigstacks just checked it down from the flop to the river.

SB had 44, which was surprising and not indicative from earlier play, BB (all in) had K9, and EP limper had A8....so the miserable 44 takes a nice pot.

My gut feeling was that I had made a mistake, and still is actually.
The SB's hand really surprised me, I gave him credit for a far stronger hand than he had.

One bit of information I did not process, and if I did, it would have swayed me to call, is HJ's point of the probability of the hand being checked down to the river, and no-one bluffing at the pot.

Jaden

The call pre-flop is not what would worry me here, but what will happen post flop. If it's going to be checked, than by all means call. The fact that there is an all-in might influence this. The only action post flop is push, and you probably won't scare anyone off.

I would probably have folded this, especially with a tight player raising the pot. You have to figure that at least one player has 2 overcards, and one has a PP.

The maths are marginal preflop, only K9 is any kind of dog.
If I fold here, and it turns out the flop would have been favourable, I mentally shrug my shoulders and move on. The quality of any decision in Poker has nothing to do with the result, and everything to do with the reasoning by which the decision was made.

If the flop had come A,7,3, it is unlikely you would have posted about this hand. Let it go.

Culchie

Jaden wrote:

If the flop had come A,7,3, it is unlikely you would have posted about this hand.

This is not important, that type of rationale could applied to every single hand history that was every posted on these boards.

Bandana boy

I like the fold here
Hindsight yes you would have hit but you are playing into a dead main pot with JT
What kind of player is the BB all in could this be any 2 cards ?
If you have him on any hand your need to hit a hand and have 1 of the other players hit a worse hand and not a better hand lot of ifs & ands there

If you bet the flop with that pot you have no fold equity on turn and river
If you had less chips I would push but you can fold and play some more cards

hotspur

I like your fold, it's a no-brainer cash game call and I think a decent fold for 30% of your chips in a tourny with no bluffing possibility in position to take the pot with a player all in. And I say that as a player who has overplayed J10s for most of my poker career as a pet hand. Now I'm more sensible / realistic about that holding.