Is Grappling safe on the streets

silat liam

I thought with all the talk on street defence and aliveness and what works in reality. I thought I post a article which was wrote by my teacher. The article was originally printed in "Combat" but I thought it might add a different view point.

Is Grappling Safe on the Street?

( Or, I have you, or Do you have me??)
by Pendekar William Sanders

Today many people have been led to believe that grappling is the answer to winning any type of fight. I believe the following analogies will prove otherwise. Martial Arts have been practiced for thousands of years under a variety of circumstances. In addition to the Indonesian Martial Arts that I teach and practice I also train horses in the classical movements of what is termed the Hautecole or “High School.” These movements were original battlefield martial movements designed to save the life of the warrior on horseback. The horse was trained for maximum mobility, spins, turns, kicks in all direction in close quarter areas. Now keep in mind those horses could have been trained to bite, actually latch onto the enemy horse, as some cow horses are taught to grab, literally to grapple cows to the ground for branding in areas of South America. But these horses and riders were training for real combat, not jousting, no ring or octagon, no tapping out or special surface. The enemy was armed, Swords, Knives, Multiple Opponents were common, and to become grounded, locked onto your opponent was certain death. In other words a fighter had to move and strike, or be struck down.

I was reminded in reading some contemporary horsemanship articles that there is nothing new under the sun today in the riding arena. Ribbons and Trophies have replaces the need for real combat application. Methods that would have to be abandoned, should real combat again be necessary. The rules of combat have be learned over thousands of years but today in an age when horses go to “shows” and martial artists go to controlled contests, it to easy to forget what we once had to know and survive for real. These comparisons are essential, as in, times past realism was strived for as it was essential for survival. The equestrians arts complimented the rider in war. Today with controlled contests riders may trust that their mounts training would allow them to survive a real armed conflict, and a Martial Artist may believe the grappling, which would work in a contest, would save him on the street. Both may find they are dead wrong should a real combat armed conflict occur. Dead wrong literally!!!

The grappling arts and the striking arts have been with us for thousands of years. Today for some reasons, various people would have us believe that they have reinvented the wheel with old fashion grappling. We see contests billed as no holds barred, where kickers are forced not to wear shoes as 99% of all of us do on a daily basis and which adds to the effectiveness of the blows much as an iron shoe does to a horse strike. Contestants can wear armour like metal groin guards to eliminate this common striking target. Knee blows to the groin, one effective blow to stop a grappler is outlawed. Eyes are off limits. Hooking (finger jabs) to eyes and biting are also out and for some unknown reason, unless perhaps the contestants are told not to, strikes that rank beginners are taught, throats spears and boxing of the ears are not seen. Special surfaces for the comfort of the grapplers is used along with the fact it always one opponent against another (never two against one). How strange! Of course this is entertaining but anyone who sees this as reality is not only delusional but as I will show you, this foolishness can get you killed in the real world, real quick!.

Almost all fights between two unskilled fighters, of any type will usually end up in some kind of ground struggle. Even boxers who are pummelled, and are close to unconsciousness will try and grab. Because of this street, smart fighters know that their best chance, is if the unsuspecting fighter closes and holds on, as they can easily dispatch them with their knife. This is why grappling can be deadly for the defender. He can’t move out of the way. He can’t see the blade until it’s stuck in him.

In Indonesia where armed confrontation was the norm, grappling was and is never suggested, unless the assailant has been stopped with a strike that cause a disarm. Even then these immobilization’s usually consist of a momentary breaking lock, never an engagement of attrition where chokes and counter chokes are attempted. As seconds ticked by the attacker and his possible partners have more and more time to reach their weapons and use them.

Today, as in times past, weapons are the norm, more and more countries are allowing gun permits and virtually every street thug has one or more knives. In a confrontation only a few years ago, a man pulled a knife on me over the use of a pay phone. When his one did had no good, he quickly produced a second one with the other hand. Had I not had my Pencak Silat training and had attempted to grapple with him, I would have been stabbed. As a matter of fact I have been told by some street smart types this is one of their favourite baits, decoys we would call them. It’s simple, conceal the weapon, allow the unsuspecting victim to grab on and while his hands are occupied, remove the weapon and kill him.

One is reminded of armed combat against a dog attack. Dogs that slash and move in and out as a Wolf fight can be very difficult to kill, even with a blade. On the other hand a Pit Bull, which can latch onto another dog’s throat with unbelievable tenacity until victory, can be lured into clamping down on an outstretched padded arm, only to be easy dispatched with a knife held in the other hand as the dog hold on tightly. This analogy perfectly compare a fluid moving fighter who can strike and evade a weapon with the tenacious grappler who single minded clutches his opponent showing the calm opponent ample time to remove a concealed weapon and kill him.

All of this illustrates my premise that unless you can first scan your enemy with a metal detector you are safer to practice a striking art. Putting your foe down first, making him produce his weapon up front, if he is to use it. Then when he goes down, we in my art Pukulan Cimande Pusaka follow the foe to the ground with elbows and knees taking him out quickly.

Notice the tenacity of the grappling arts. The necessity that he latch on and hold me, while we go to the ground will be downfall. He can’t escape my blade and in fact will never see until it’s far to late. Be forewarned!

In the contest that I have seen, sometime the most skilful grapplers in the world often took ten to twenty minutes to choke out or lock out an opponent. A blade can be withdrawn in a second and used in a manner unseen by the grappler until it’s to late.

The modern craze of glorified tough man contests, that of course allow no weapons may have created a dangerous false sense of security. Just remember that the striking arts flourished in times past when the danger of holding on was known. Watch videos of the so called no holds contests and imagine the outcome if the man on the bottom suddenly had a knife, and keep this in mind the next time you choose to hold your opponent in your Kill zone.

columok

Hey Liam,

some lovely opinions there to get stuck into. I actually read this article about two years ago but its nice to get a repeat. I'll try to break down my points to the individual points offered.

Just wondering if you saw the Pencak Silat Master Alberta Cerra Leon compete in UFC 2. It was most enlightening.

Contestants can wear armour like metal groin guards to eliminate this common striking target. Knee blows to the groin, one effective blow to stop a grappler is outlawed.

They weren't always. Maybe you should watch some Brazilian Vale Tudo or some early UFC (example Keith Hackney Vs. Joe Son Do)

Eyes are off limits. Hooking (finger jabs) to eyes and biting are also out and for some unknown reason, unless perhaps the contestants are told not to, strikes that rank beginners are taught, throats spears and boxing of the ears are not seen.

In many NHB contests (especially those in gyms) people were allowed to do this stuff. In certain UFC fights while this eye pokes were banned they were not stopped by the referee and were used by, I believe John Hess, against an inferior opponent. Now when Hess fought Vitor Belfort (an excellent BJJ fighter and boxer) under eye pokes allowed rules he was schooled.

Boxing of the ears? Kazushi Sakuraba Vs. Royce Gracie (Pride GP 2000)

Special surfaces for the comfort of the grapplers is used along with the fact it always one opponent against another (never two against one). How strange! Of course this is entertaining but anyone who sees this as reality is not only delusional but as I will show you, this foolishness can get you killed in the real world, real quick!.

Well its a sporting contest. And its a sporting contest of one vs. one. So its not delusional and its not strange.

Anyway there seems to be a thinking that MMA people instinctively take people down "on the street". The ground is a bad place to be. I train on how to stand up and run off if possible. I work my striking 4/5 days a week. I work my standing grappling similarily.

So I would ask the question to yourself and William Sanders...

How would you expect to win a one on many street fight with no rules when you cant win a one on one fight with rules there to protect YOU?

Tim_Murphy

Wasn't this article in Irish fighter ages ago?

Another equaly pointless question would simply be 'is fighting safe on the street?'

Notice the tenacity of the grappling arts. The necessity that he latch on and hold me, while we go to the ground will be downfall. He can’t escape my blade and in fact will never see until it’s far to late. Be forewarned!

So the author has some aggressive tendencies then? Stabbing grapplers doesn't seem to be a very healthy thing to be thinking about TBH.

columok

So the author has some aggressive tendencies then?

I read another Sanders article in Irish Fighter where a man attacked him with a knife and I think he taunted the guy and made him regret his attacks or something.

So a better question is... Why does Pendekhar William Sanders get in so many street fights/knife fights?

Dragan

I think the article was merely meant to convey that maybe grappling in a street fight is not the best course of action, which i think even a lot of "grapplers" will agree with.

However, as we all know aswell, and was even pointed out in the article, that most street incidents will eventually get to the point where it two people swinging out of each other and going to ground. However, the issue that i have with the article is the implication that a knife would come into it from our side of things.

As some one who is enjoying practicing Silat and as someone who is more than aware of the dangers of the street, i never let it leave my mind that my first defence is to simply remove myself from the situation, plain and simple.

Once again though, the my art versus yours argument will rage on, and everyone will once again forget that we are all right in ways and all wrong in ways, and hopefully none of us will ever really need to find out which when it comes to this type of scenario.

fianna.5u.com

This is a martial arts / self defence board. I think one of the mods should move this to either the show jumping / dresage forum or to the "you know you are psychotic when..." forum.

This article has been torn to shreds time and time again, the best thing we can do is ignore it so it filters down the the old posts and never gets read again. I mean if someone new to martial arts came on here and read this it could be detrimental to their learning.

Peace

dlofnep

I had an altercation last saturday when a much bigger fella headbutted me. A friend of mine was headbutted by a man, I broke it up and on two attempts grappling saved me from what would of been a severe beatdown.

Firstly in the pub after I seperated my friend and the guy who headbutted him - The guy's friend started on me, pushing me and tried to headbutt me. I clinch with him and pinned him against the wall until the bouncers broke us up.

I went outside to get away from the trouble the started. The guy followed me out and started shouting at me, egging me on to fight. I told him I didn't want to fight (one, he was much bigger and two i don't like fighting) - He headbutted me and grazed me - I shot in at him for a double leg, slammed him to the ground and held side control on him til his friends split it up.

So yes, grappling does work on the street. My encounter is living proof of it.

dlofnep

Also, just to expand on my post.. Concrete is a whole lot less forgiving than grappling mats. I was definately more aware of my surroundings and wasn't going to try jumping to guard on him or anything. Still, nevertheless it's still effective and can be used on concrete.

silat liam

fianna.5u.com wrote:

This is a martial arts / self defence board. I think one of the mods should move this to either the show jumping / dresage forum or to the "you know you are psychotic when..." forum.

This article has been torn to shreds time and time again, the best thing we can do is ignore it so it filters down the the old posts and never gets read again. I mean if someone new to martial arts came on here and read this it could be detrimental to their learning.

Peace

Hi Fianna
Heaven forbade that someone new could read this and it become detrimental to their learning? I mean how could there be another point of view to yours.
Where in the article has it been torn to threads I just seen one person point out his ideals and views. Is it because some silat guy got beat in UfC 2 ?? What style of silat was it, because there far more than one. There are over 800 styles in Indonesia alone. Most of them are not combat styles, some are religions others are sport, while a few of them are combat driven. As far as I know this guy who fought never got permission from any Governing Association to represent them at UfC. Also all styles have strong and weak fighters so is a whole style of Martial arts judge on the way one ill advise student does, if this is the case we can judge all martial arts in this way. By the way Who was guy teacher? If you could get back to me on this I would be grateful.


The main point of this article is to point out to people that maybe grappling with an attacker on the street is not the wisest thing to do. It doesnt say dont do MMA or UFC. And before people start saying you should walk/ run / talk your way out this is what we teach first and foremost. But the facts are facts most of the grappling will not work against a blade attacker and this is something which as teachers yourselves should be responsible in teaching to your students. To Answer another question as far as I know the author of the article has been in 3 situation where a Knife was pull on him, and he still here so it work for him. I dont hang around been tough or go looking for fights, but where I work there been 2 incidents in the last year when someone has come into the shop and pull a knife, looking for money and last year I saw a 10 year old traveller kid been beaten up by two local lads about 14years old. Who then after they left him got up went over to a trash bin, got a Lucozade bottle and smash it, and walk over to one of the two kids who beat him and put it straight into his face and ran off.

My other work I deal with people who have been the victims of street violence. So I seen at first hand what people do on the street. I very surprize by how naive some of the guy are on this forum. And I glad that they never had to experience real horror on the street. I have a girl in my class, who both her friend were rape last year in different location in Dublin. I trained another girl who had an attacker knife her in the vaginal and left her with over 50 stinches. I recently did a self defence course in town and as part of the course people were asked to discuss if they were ever attack over half the group had been attack in the last year. Maybe it because they were girls or maybe because they were from another country, but some of the stories were horriffic. One guy was walking down Graffon street and was just haul off in broad daylight punch, kick and mugged. So talking about fighting in the ring makes you hard aint impress me. And telling people they can alwayes run off is not always practical or available as a option. Im not saying Silat is the answer, but some guys need to come out of their concoons.

Hope this fills the self defence portion of this forum and is to your approval Fianna

Liam
www.silateurope.com

MaxBax

JOB:fair play.

Musashi

Nice one John! Waterford and even Dungarvan is getting rougher and more weapons are being used all the time. Crazy stuff. Glad your ok after it

one, he was much bigger

Aren't they always! Couple questions for you if you don't mind man?
What kind of bar or club was it? Is it known for hassles or a studenty gaff (not that they are mutually exclusive). What kind of time was it? Early on in the night or later and beer fueled? What kind of response time had the door staff, and were there any signs this was kicking off so someone could have given them a heads up? Why'd your mate get 'butted, did he get to try talk his way out before the head was thrown?

Don't tell me, it was Shane got nutted and you saved his lanky self wasn't it!! Yay Jitsu :v:

waterford mma

Musashi wrote:

Don't tell me, it was Shane got nutted and you saved his lanky self wasn't it!! Yay Jitsu :v:

:rolleyes: if i had been there i'm quite sure i would have slipped the headbutt and choked him with my blue belt which i carry around in my back pocket. .

as for the original point made on the post, i have ever only gotten in one street fight incident about two years ago outside the showboat pub in waterford. as it was being broken up i had the guy in a heelhook. . . i had tried to put on pressure with a normal footlock but he kept kicking me with the other leg so he gave me no option but to make the switch. . needless to say he switched from kicking to screaming. the fight was broken up about 10 seconds after the heelhook went on

dlofnep

Musashi wrote:

Nice one John! Waterford and even Dungarvan is getting rougher and more weapons are being used all the time. Crazy stuff. Glad your ok after it



Aren't they always! Couple questions for you if you don't mind man?
What kind of bar or club was it? Is it known for hassles or a studenty gaff (not that they are mutually exclusive). What kind of time was it? Early on in the night or later and beer fueled? What kind of response time had the door staff, and were there any signs this was kicking off so someone could have given them a heads up? Why'd your mate get 'butted, did he get to try talk his way out before the head was thrown?

Don't tell me, it was Shane got nutted and you saved his lanky self wasn't it!! Yay Jitsu :v:

it was the cleaboy pub. Just a local. He didn't try to talk his way out of anything. Everything he said was trying to provoke a fight out of my friend and the other guy out of me. It was still somewhat early, maybe 10pm. I'd say he had a few beers in him, but he wasn't drunk. The guy was just a typical scumbag. Bouncers split us up after I pinned him to the wall about 10 seconds later.

There were no signs that my friend was going to get headbutted. I've no idea why he was. He's loud, maybe that was it. But it definitely didn't warrant a headbutt. The guy who headbutted him wasn't even sitting at the table with us. He walked over from the bar and headbutted him. Disgraceful tbh since my friend is only 20 and the guy was about 40.

I don't think Waterford as a whole is that rough - Incidents like this are pretty rare tbh - Still, I'm glad I know what I know and was able to nullify him at all times. I felt somewhat safe.

MaxBax

There were no signs that my friend was going to get headbutted. I've no idea why he was. He's loud, maybe that was it. But it definitely didn't warrant a headbutt. The guy who headbutted him wasn't even sitting at the table with us. He walked over from the bar and headbutted him. Disgraceful tbh since my friend is only 20 and the guy was about 40.

lol.

Roper

John you are a bully, picking on a middle aged man like that

damo

good work...i know the type around waterford who go looking for fights on a saturday night - ****ing assholes, you shouldve dropped a few elbows on the **** while you were at it

Millionaire

well done, on defending yourself successfully against a violent bully.

This stuff does happen "out of the blue" , and dolfnep story proves it.

Great to see you help him , without having to bust him up, though he careful going to the ground on the street when your attacker, has friends about, as you might end up getting gang stomped. and that is not fun!

I d say the 40 year old going on 18, will think twice about picking on young lads now!!! he he he

columok

though he careful going to the ground on the street when your attacker, has friends about, as you might end up getting gang stomped. and that is not fun!

I was thinking the same thing actually but fair play John. I guess you surveyed the surroundings and figured it was safe to hold him.

dlofnep

Well, one of the guys he was with was an old friend of mine, so I knew if the other two tried to jump me, he'd stop em. Besides, the two guys he was with didn't look the type to jump in.. and the other crazy 40 year old was still in the pub.

Either way I had to defend myself. I can't strike to save my life, he was going to hit me either way so I did the only thing I knew and took him down and pinned him in side control. I thought about dropping some elbows on him Damo from side control but I thought that might make his friends have a reason to jump on me.. So I just pinned him (knowing I could hold him) and waited it out. I think given the circumstances, it was the best thing to do. I didn't get hurt - All was well.

Drexl Spivey

As Bruce Lee used to say: I have no ways as way and no limitations as limitation. My style is the art of fighting without fighting ....



I like Martial Arts, both tradionals and moderns.

Also, I believe that no training can prepare you for real situation. If you have been brought up in a tough environment, you have the edge, there's no question about it.

It is not the martial art that makes the warrior.

But all this is no excuse not to practise.

I have been practising Shotokan years ago, and looking back, it was a bit of a waste.

I agree with the OP when he says that you can't judge an art by only one fighter. Although one thing that was noticable in UFC 2, is that some deadly techniques are not necesarely that deadly: we saw guys standing after a knee in the face, and even one after an elbow behind the head. In most tradional martial arts classes, they would tell you that it can't happen....

UFC, MMA etc are not the most violent in my opinion.
Muay Thai is impressive.

ninjawitatitude

Hey John,

Well done on surviving your altercation mate. Out of intrest, does the way you train reflect the fight you had? Not trying to flame at all. Just personal curiosity. I'm wondering if you thought there were any limitations placed on you that you hadn't thought of?

StrateBlastJim

ninjawitatitude wrote:

Hey John,
Just personal curiosity. I'm wondering if you thought there were any limitations placed on you that you hadn't thought of?

I would assume that his answer will be yes as he doesnt to the best of my knowledge drill scenario based self defence so i would assume he just reacted and addapted his skills to the situation however im sure he will be here soon to say im talkin balls

dlofnep

StrateBlastJim wrote:

I would assume that his answer will be yes as he doesnt to the best of my knowledge drill scenario based self defence so i would assume he just reacted and addapted his skills to the situation however im sure he will be here soon to say im talkin balls

Nope, you are correct

I don't train for self defense. I guess the way I train, and not only I but many guys on here gives us what we need to defend ourselves. I did exactly what I would do in training and got it to the ground ASAP. The only thing was, I was more concious of my surroundings as mats were replaced with concrete and my team-mates were replaced with his friends.

ninjawitatitude

Hi John,
Nice one mate. Figured it would be like that. Just wondered if there was anything I hadn't thought of.
Ta.

dlofnep

ninjawitatitude wrote:

Hi John,
Nice one mate. Figured it would be like that. Just wondered if there was anything I hadn't thought of.
Ta.

Well, in most part it reflected my training. MMA is first and foremost a sport, and is adapted somewhat once concrete is involved.. Instead of working a bottom jiu-jitsu game, I worked a top jiu-jitsu game to adapt to the concrete. All my training was still applicible for the situation.