hand from last nights 10k

Norwich Fan Rob

this hand annoyed me, cause i dont see anyway i cant go broke post flop....

16 players left, 9 paid.

1 have 18k, average is around 14k.
Villian has 14k.
Blinds are 600/1200.

I open raise to 3,800 from mid pos with AKo.
BB calls. (for more than 1/4 of his stack)

Flop comes 9h 10h Ks.

He checks.
Over 8k in the pot inc the SB.
Villian has 10k behind.
I have to bet at least 1/2 the pot, say 5k, but then i cant pass if he pushes (as it will be only another 5k into then 18k with tptk and he could easily push with weaker K, flush, str8 draw).
So i go all in, so he has no odds for his draw, (he likely has middle PP, KQ, Ax, 2 hearts, or which only KQ or heart draw can call, and im ahead of both of these).
Im happy to take down the 8k now.
There is no way i want to give a free card on this board.

He calls with KT clubs and im down to the felt.

In my opinion, there is no way out of this post flop.

However, i should have made it 6k pre flop, still leaving me 12k behind, and making it less likely that marginals should as KTs will defend their BB.

Thoughts?

fuzzbox

If you want to make it 6k preflop then pushing is superior, as you are essentially offering your opponent 2.5:1 on your stack. If he outflops you he gets your stack nearly every time.

With stacks this shallow - I much prefer a preflop push, than a raise.

Culchie

With only 10-15 BB's you can't play post flop poker with this hand, stacks are too small.

If you are playing, you are pushing.

Ste05

I'd play it the exact same way that you did, 6k pre-flop would be too much, also a push would be too much, I'm happy to take the blinds here but you also want donkey's with KQ, AQ, even K10 :rolleyes:, etc. to call or re-raise you. Pushing should eliminate hands that you dominate from playing. And generally only means you'll be called when at best it's a 50:50 and at worst as a 4:1 dog. You have above average chips so people are going to be afraid of you.

A push is fine too, but just reduces the chances of a weaker hand paying you off or trying a re-raise you (which generally I'm calling, depending on the pusher) and you also get to see if a standard 3x BB raise pre-flop is enough to take the blinds for later. (info. that's always useful )

Push this flop, you just got unlucky.

fuzzbox

I get calls from Ax all the time when I push here.

Jaden

I'm not a fan of AK, but at those blind/stack levels, this is a push. Only a Donkey would call with K,10 for all his stack near the bubble. Unfortunately every MTT has more ass in it than a rap video. You just got unlucky here.

If the blinds are 10% of my stack and I'm above average near the bubble, then I take them if I can. You can raise to get some hands to come along, but righer reward = higher risk.

Ste05

fuzzbox wrote:

I get calls from Ax all the time when I push here.

Well then a push is fine, but I just find players are much happier pushing with Ax with more than 10BB's as opposed to calling All-In.

Jaden, you want K10 calling here, but I doubt he would have called for an All-In bet. Luck and results shouldn't factor into decisions. However if he would have called with the likes of K10 pre-flop then you should definitely go All-In pre-flop.

fuzzbox

Ste05 wrote:

Well then a push is fine, but I just find players are much happier pushing with Ax with more than 10BB's as opposed to calling All-In.

Jaden, you want K10 calling here, but I doubt he would have called for an All-In bet. Luck and results shouldn't factor into decisions. However if he would have called with the likes of K10 pre-flop then you should definitely go All-In pre-flop.

What is your plan if you make it 3.8k, then the flop comes J84 and villain checks?

Pot would be about 7.5k. Villain has about 10k left.

This problem is avoided if you push preflop.

Gholimoli

Rob same exact thing happen to me in the same tourny a couple of months ago.i didnt push preflop cuz i wanted to get more chips and felt i could do that by raising and then playing post flop poker.
however as others have said,stacks are not deep enough to play post flop.i think you should just push preflop.if you get called by the likes of KT or Ax then happy days and they are making a mistake.but when they see the flop and hit their hand then they are not making a mistake.
this is even worse when you dont hit your A or K on the flop and some one throws a prob bet at you and you have no idea where you are.

Jaden

Stacks are too shallow to allow much post flop play. If I play AK in a multiway pot I am wary of two situations.

The first is when I miss. I can be really difficult to judge where you stand here. You have two overcards, but no real idea if you are behind or not.

The second is when the flop comes with two cards >=10. The only hands that *should* call AK preflop are PP and two paint cards (suited for the weaker ones).

Pushing will get most of these to fold (Assclowns will always call, c'est la vie).

In this particular situation, you are above average stack, so just take the blinds and let everyone else duke it out for an orbit or two. If I got AK on the button or in the blinds, it might be different, but AK in MP opens you up to risks that you don't *need* to be taking yet. I'm always cautious around the bubble, but if I think I can pick up the blinds uncontested, when smaller stacks are coming under pressure, then I will.

You were going to lose this hand once it got to the flop. The outcome is set. The validity of your play is not determined by the outcome, but by your reasoning for doing what you did.

The point I would make is that the guy who called with K,10 and called your push didn't make a mistake. However, If he had called an all-in preflop, then he would have been making one. It is a highly subjective matter, but I would have pushed here.

Bandana boy

You are asking BB to call 2600 into an 8K pot less than 25% of his stack (his BB is committed ) If you dont push he is likely to do this with any connected hole cards
Plus if he feels you for an ace he gets to see a flop and act first and push if no ace happens. (Have you played pretty solid up to this point?)
So our villain has the ability to play any flop with 2 cards between 6-Q as having hit
In his position i do exact same and you have a really tough call if you miss

Big Slick is a dangerous mistress but i push or flat call here no halfway point to raise.

Ste05

fuzzbox wrote:

What is your plan if you make it 3.8k, then the flop comes J84 and villain checks?

Pot would be about 7.5k. Villain has about 10k left.

This problem is avoided if you push preflop.

I'd decide at the time depending on what this opponent has done before and what sort of player he was. Couldn't tell you what I'd do without any back ground really, but the default would have to be push really. Although I didn't hit, odds are he didn't either and unless he has trips I should have outs even if he calls.

Obviously this isn't everyone's cup of tea, but I'm just saying I don't like pushing with any hand I'm playing at this stage.

Whether it's a blatant blind steal or a strong hand I'm betting the same amount pre-flop until I have an M of about 5 or 6. It allows you to steal blinds without committing your entire stack later. Obviously alot of dissention to this style, but just my 0.02c.

Can I take it the push side of the argument either wait for big hands to steal blinds or else push All-In with weaker hands, do you ever merely raise to steal blinds possibly suited connectors or AA/KK, I'm not trying to be confrontational, I'm just interested to hear more opinions. Can I take it you just mean from Early to Mid position??

fuzzbox

If my stack is this size, then if I raise, then regardless of what it is that I am raising, my whole stack goes in.

End of problem. They need a big hand to call, and there is 1800 worth of blinds to be hand, and thats quite a big chunk of stack.

Norwich Fan Rob

your right, and i usually prefer to push with AK pre flop.
Im not sure why exactly i didnt here, brain failure perhaps but with the stacks involved, it is indeed a push.