Calling off large sums of money drawing dead

Hectorjelly · 21-02-2006 02:29AM #1

Same villain as before. Everyone limps and I limp on button with Q4spades. The flop is TT2 with 2 spades. Checked to me and I bet 24. BB and villain call. The turn is a spade and we all check. I check here to keep the pot small rather than slowplaying. River is a jack, for a board of 2TT9J. They both check to me and I bet the pot, which is around 90. The villain makes it 300 more. Call or fold!

RoundTower · 21-02-2006 02:37AM

I would fold. The big raise looks like a monster or a bluff. There aren't too many bluffing hands he could have here, maybe he could have called on the flop with something like 77, but JT or 9T looks more likely.

edit: just reread the description of him in the other thread. Overaggressive preflop and probably bluffs quite a bit postflop, but hasn't been caught. Unless your read has changed I think I still fold.

meandmy · 21-02-2006 04:43AM

this is a classic bluff I hope you called. by betting the flop you [depending on what kind of player you are ]are letting the aggressive player know that you have no 10 he probably puts you on flush draw 2 overs or small pair when the flush comes and you don't bet he probably thinks you have 2 overs or small pair and a re raise well win for him about 70% of the time. its also possible that he had a hand like A 10 or K 10 and slow played then checked the turn just in case you hit and he well call you down . if you didn't call your mistake other than not calling was not betting the turn , if you had bet the turn and he comes over a pass would have probably been right if he just calls you and bets the river into you a pass is probably right you still lose the same amount but its essayer to read this as a good pass if he calls the turn and checks you can see check . the biggest of the 2 mistakes you made [not calling at the end and not betting the turn]was not betting the turn

meandmy · 21-02-2006 04:48AM

you probably talked yourself into not calling because you might have been drawing dead when you hit your hand, hope this was of help...

Hectorjelly · 21-02-2006 04:51AM

I dont see why not betting turn is a mistake, I think in general it makes it less likely that I fold the best hand. Also if I bet the turn and he raises im probably pushing as not many ppl will raise with a made house, but a lone ten will now be worried about the flush.

I did end up calling btw.

RoundTower · 21-02-2006 05:16AM

Both of you mention that you might be calling drawing dead here. I don't understand what you are referring to. You can't be "drawing dead" on the river, there is nothing more to draw to. You didn't face a bet at any other point in the hand. Am I missing something?

Hectorjelly · 21-02-2006 05:20AM

I just referring to the fact that if your hand is no good on the river you get 0% of your money back, whereas normally when you get your money in bad you get back at least a little equity!

Edit to add its like a joke except its not funny

meandmy · 21-02-2006 05:23AM

the q4 hand might be dead on flop

RoundTower · 21-02-2006 05:35AM

Well, this is the same any time you are contemplating calling on the river. On the bright side, you may have your opponent drawing dead (although I still don't understand how).

Meandmy, I haven't played this game very often, but I don't think many players here are checkraising for value with AT or KT. If the opponent is bluffing I expect him to have a pair 33-88.

Hector, is the raise on the river all in?

Hectorjelly · 21-02-2006 05:39AM

RoundTower wrote:

Hector, is the raise on the river all in?

No we have at least 400 more I think each

meandmy · 21-02-2006 05:58AM

ts Little technical rowndtower. and i would suggest you stick to the basics at poker until you have gained more experience . I am under the imprison that hectorjelly is playing and understands higher level poker............................................hector you said you called ,what he have ?:)

bohsman · 21-02-2006 06:01AM

meandmy wrote:

ts Little technical rowndtower. and i would suggest you stick to the basics at poker until you have gained more experience . I am under the imprison that hectorjelly is playing and understands higher level poker............................................hector you said you called ,what he have ?:)

When roundtower said he hadnt played the game much he meant the specific game hj was talking about other than that he plays a bit, more of a plo player though and decent at chinese poker

meandmy · 21-02-2006 06:01AM

me think k 10 smaller flush or nothing

Vikings · 21-02-2006 06:02AM

My immediate thought on the river bet was KsQx. Don't think he had a 10.

Hectorjelly · 21-02-2006 06:08AM

meandmy wrote:

ts Little technical rowndtower. and i would suggest you stick to the basics at poker until you have gained more experience . I am under the imprison that hectorjelly is playing and understands higher level poker............................................hector you said you called ,what he have ?:)

LOL Someone wanted him banned earlier! FWIW He is one of the best posters on here

meandmy · 21-02-2006 06:23AM

k10......:) ..........?

Hectorjelly · 21-02-2006 06:25AM

I was actually on tilt during this hand and on the river decided to fold. I pressed call anyway and was surprised to win, he had 78o for a straight.

No real moral to this story, just it can be very hard to play against bad aggro players with big stacks

meandmy · 21-02-2006 06:28AM

thats the same as A 10

meandmy · 21-02-2006 06:29AM

at the end

Vikings · 21-02-2006 06:38AM

meandmy wrote:

thats the same as A 10

How do you figure that?

I thought he would of had the straight but could not see him raising that much with the low end of it.

meandmy · 21-02-2006 06:46AM

ok 90+% the same thing.......A10 is the next best hand. he thinks he is raising with a winner he is hoping to get on v 10 rag if he makes this play at the end it the same as doing it with the A 10 ,,, they beat the same hands that can call.

fuzzbox · 21-02-2006 08:34AM

Fold, and dont bet the pot on the river

In general - river check-raises are almost always a monster ... expect TT here.

fuzzbox · 21-02-2006 08:36AM

RoundTower wrote:

Both of you mention that you might be calling drawing dead here. I don't understand what you are referring to. You can't be "drawing dead" on the river, there is nothing more to draw to. You didn't face a bet at any other point in the hand. Am I missing something?

When you can no longer outdraw your opponent(s) then you are, in fact, drawing dead. With no cards to come you are 100% dead (if you do not have the best hand.

fuzzbox · 21-02-2006 08:38AM

After seeing the results - add a note on this guy "moron", and this will help you to call in similar spots in the future.

Norwich Fan Rob · 21-02-2006 09:18AM

what a donkey, check raising with a str8 on a 3 to a suit paired board, with a decent bet into him, donkeyness of the highest order.

Imposter · 21-02-2006 09:45AM

Norwich Fan Rob wrote:

what a donkey, check raising with a str8 on a 3 to a suit paired board, with a decent bet into him, donkeyness of the highest order.

That really depends on what he thinks of HJ. Would HJ play this way and make a stab at the pot with nothing or a worse hand than a straight?* If the answer is yes then calling is definitely an idea and raising may be an option. HJ also says he was on tilt and his oppenent may have noticed that.

* I think he might

But would he do it often enough is the question.

fixer · 21-02-2006 10:50AM

but with you betting that flop, did he really have to worry about you with the top end of the straight? he put you on a 10, an pocket pair or a flush draw. When the turn came, he was happy for a free card to hit his straight, and you checking reenforced his original read (and offering that you felt your flush was vunerable, if that was your draw). He hit his straight and thought he might have the best hand but could also push you off a flush. If positions were reversed, I would expect him to have bet out on the turn.

Isn't this fairly standard "Brunson-esque" aggro play?

fuzzbox · 21-02-2006 11:18AM

fixer wrote:

but with you betting that flop, did he really have to worry about you with the top end of the straight? he put you on a 10, an pocket pair or a flush draw. When the turn came, he was happy for a free card to hit his straight, and you checking reenforced his original read (and offering that you felt your flush was vunerable, if that was your draw). He hit his straight and thought he might have the best hand but could also push you off a flush. If positions were reversed, I would expect him to have bet out on the turn.

Isn't this fairly standard "Brunson-esque" aggro play?

No - this is stupid-esque play.

He is not bluffing - he is just stupid. He never gets called by a hand that he beats - thus his river check-raise is a bluff. But his hand is better than a bluff and has showdown value. In his spot call > raise by a million miles.

Calling off large sums of money drawing dead

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