How would you play

Bandana boy

Playing in cash game in Cork Sat night and things are going well I am stacked deep (deeper than anyone else at table )
of the players there one a pretty good if a little obvious young player has managed to get himself up to €900
When a short stacked player(€100) makes it €40 to play our young friend who in 6 hours i have not managed to play a hand against calls i see KJ and think i have a good read on this young chap call.
Pot 150
I have our good friend on a strongish Ace but not AA KK QQ (he would have re-raised) and unlikely AK (same )

Flop
AT9 spades draw ( i have no spades) short stack leads out for €10 and our friend makes it 150

Do you call and why

brianmc

Bandana boy wrote:

Playing in cash game in Cork Sat night and things are going well I am stacked deep (deeper than anyone else at table )
of the players there one a pretty good if a little obvious young player has managed to get himself up to €900
When a short stacked player(€100) makes it €40 to play our young friend who in 6 hours i have not managed to play a hand against calls i see KJ and think i have a good read on this young chap call.
Pot 150
I have our good friend on a strongish Ace but not AA KK QQ (he would have re-raised) and unlikely AK (same )

Flop
AT9 spades draw ( i have no spades) short stack leads out for €10 and our friend makes it 150

Do you call and why

eh... no.

because I've missed the flop?

Or have I missed something in the post?

What?

If I've read it correctly, you have a gutshot... I.E. one card to fill the hole in the middle of your straight. There are only four Queens in the deck.

Bandana boy

Your correct all I have is a gutshot to actually turn over cards and win

but Is there not a lot of cards that get my friend into trouble other than the Q and surely if a q hits there is good he never hit potential

ntlbell

this is a no brainer....

fold.....

brianmc

Bandana boy wrote:

Your correct all I have is a gutshot to actually turn over cards and win

but Is there not a lot of cards that get my friend into trouble other than the Q and surely if a q hits there is good he never hit potential

So, on one hand you think if the (very unlikely) Queen hits you can get him to put all of his chips in and on the other hand you think that if any other scary card hits you can get him to fold?

Have you seen him lay down a big hand like top pair?

ntlbell

Bandana boy wrote:

Your correct all I have is a gutshot to actually turn over cards and win

but Is there not a lot of cards that get my friend into trouble other than the Q and surely if a q hits there is good he never hit potential

huh?

You put him on a strong A the board is A high, there's a bet into him and he's comming out strong obviously protecting his hand from the flush draw, you have no buisness been in this hand anymore.

Bandana boy

I have seen him lead out with top pair and check call down it if it doesnt improve
The only big re-raise i have seen him play against is with top two and a set

Ste05

Want to share this "read" you have that is leading down this path. As far as I can see there's also another short stack that will almost definitely call too.

What is making you think you can call knowing that the Short stack will fold, and then you can represent a hand that will make this "young lad" fold a hand that he is obviously very happy with on the flop.

Bandana boy

I can tell from a soon as our friend makes it 150 that short stack is dead.

brianmc

Bandana boy wrote:

I can tell from a soon as our friend makes it 150 that short stack is dead.

So now you know his hand is strong.

FOLD!

next thread please...

Bandana boy

I dont believe that a 500-600 bet on turn will be called by less than top two/set from our friend
i am a reasonably tight player and the weakest hand i have turned over in the last couple of hours is prob top 2 and when i raise i have had either 1st or 2nd nuts

sickpuppy

come up to dublin illput u up and and wellplay some heads up cash ya fish

brianmc

Bandana boy wrote:

I dont believe that a 500-600 bet on turn will be called by less than top two/set from our friend
i am a reasonably tight player and the weakest hand i have turned over in the last couple of hours is prob top 2 and when i raise i have had either 1st or 2nd nuts

Alright. Why are you waiting for the turn, and why can't he already have top 2?

Why am I still responding?

Norwich Fan Rob

so u want to represent a set of 10's and are willing to to risk a 1k stack that the young lad will buy it.............quite risky imo.

Surely u can wait for better spots.

RoundTower

Even without the shortstack, just fold here. If he is so predictable, find a different spot to outplay him. With the short stack in the hand definitely fold, you will have to show down a hand to win the main pot.

marius

Bandana boy wrote:

do you call and why

Bandana boy wrote:

I dont believe that a 500-600 bet on turn will be called by less than top two/set from our friend

are you asking us if we call or if we raise?
no and no.......
but you did and hit a Q???

RoundTower

Lets play guess the results. You called, hit a Q, and he paid you off with AQ. Then someone, can't remember if it was the young guy or not, asked "how could you call on the flop". You said "well I thought I could take you off it if the flush hit". He shrugged in disbelief and left the table (I think).

Close?

ollyk1

brianmc wrote:

Alright. Why are you waiting for the turn, and why can't he already have top 2?

Why am I still responding?

He's going to bluff the flush on the turn. The kid calls anyway and is now pot committed and a Q comes on the river and he gets out of jail.

Do i win the prize??

P.S. why are you still responding Brian? Anyone Fancy the €100 game in the Fitz tonight?

Bandana boy

Wow you guys really don't like that position

I am taking a big risk he has top 2 but he will lead out 500 if he does on the turn (hence the no re-raise )
Where if he has an ace he checks the turn (thats my read anyway )
and i dont think he can play my bet back

I have waited 6 hours for this hand against him (and as it turned out i stayed 3 hours more and we never went head to head again)

Ste05

It's a very risky play, I assume you're calling hoping to a spade falls so you can represtent it, or a Q that you can get value out of it, and if he's been seen to check down after the flop, if you're right about alot of things, (1) he will fold if a spade falls (presumably you'll need to bet over €400 on this bluff) (2) he'll pay you off if a Q falls; and (3) he won't bet the turn if a non spade falls.

All in all it seems a bit mad to me, you're getting about the right odds to call, if you're sure a spade or a Q will win the hand for you (and assuming he won't bet the turn, IMO far too many assumptions).

I think you should have just folded Pre-Flop or at least folded on the Flop, but if this kind of play is profitable for you then continue, but it does seem very risky indeed.

I have a feeling that a spade fell, you bet and he folded. So on a results basis it worked out, but in general IMO it was a very dodgy and risky play.

brianmc

Bandana boy wrote:

Wow you guys really don't like that position

I am taking a big risk he has top 2 but he will lead out 500 if he does on the turn (hence the no re-raise )
Where if he has an ace he checks the turn (thats my read anyway )
and i dont think he can play my bet back

I have waited 6 hours for this hand against him (and as it turned out i stayed 3 hours more and we never went head to head again)

On this site recently people have been getting the impression that new posters get a hard time.

I just want you to understand that this is not the case in this instance.

Your suggestion of calling is ridiculous. You need to rethink your logic on this one.

ntlbell

Bandana boy wrote:

Wow you guys really don't like that position

I am taking a big risk he has top 2 but he will lead out 500 if he does on the turn (hence the no re-raise )
Where if he has an ace he checks the turn (thats my read anyway )
and i dont think he can play my bet back

I have waited 6 hours for this hand against him (and as it turned out i stayed 3 hours more and we never went head to head again)

I'm totally lost, you waited 6 hours to play in a hand against him? surley if your read is that solid any two cards will do?

Bandana boy

Not quite so simple
I have a good read on him but the €40 call gave me a chance to be more confident of what he has
I had to get position on him and know that I was going to keep that position and not have a caller sitting over me

plus it took a good chunk of that 6 hours to get the read on him

Bandana boy

brianmc wrote:

On this site recently people have been getting the impression that new posters get a hard time.

I just want you to understand that this is not the case in this instance.

Your suggestion of calling is ridiculous. You need to rethink your logic on this one.

no problem BMC
nobody being offensive yet and i posted cause i wanted too see if people disagreed with my thought process

Norwich Fan Rob

if agree that if he has AK, AQ, he may check the turn if u call the flop bet, and may lay down to a large bet............thats assuming he doesnt turn 2 pair, or already hold 2 pair.
If hes a young kid up several hundred, and u have him covered, it adds value to this play.
But its still very risky..................

(ive noted b4 its one thing to put someone on a hand then should put down, its another for them to actual put the damn thing down)

fuzzbox

When deep, the overlay for calling the flop is pretty big. A call here is REALLY scary. The board is really nasty.

Any card from 6-K or any spade will most likely scare Mr. Big Ace (if thats what he has).

This only works against players who can lay down that big ace on a turn scare card. I dont know if you are deep enough to make this work. If a scare card comes and he bets anyway (say 200-300) then maybe he is pot stuck regardless.

I prefer your play if you have QJ rather than KJ.

Bandana boy

i think i have the 2 qs 11 spades 37s 38s and possibly 29s and 2tens
19-23 card is pretty big

Bandana boy

fuzzbox wrote:

When deep, the overlay for calling the flop is pretty big. A call here is REALLY scary. The board is really nasty.

Any card from 6-K or any spade will most likely scare Mr. Big Ace (if thats what he has).

This only works against players who can lay down that big ace on a turn scare card. I dont know if you are deep enough to make this work. If a scare card comes and he bets anyway (say 200-300) then maybe he is pot stuck regardless.

I prefer your play if you have QJ rather than KJ.

I think as well he bets he is pot committed and he only bets (according to my read) with two pair or better so i lay down unless a q hits

sunzz

Anychance you could tell us what ACTUALLY happened.

And I'm folding on the flop. HORRIBLE play to even think about, putting your 1K on the off chance he will lay down top pair, 2pair.

Hectorjelly

This certainly isnt horrible play, if I have AK then I am going to be afraid of half the deck on the turn.

I think that if the following are true:

He can lay down AK
You are in position
The shortstack is definitely folding

Then its sounds good to me.

I would definitely fold preflop though, the presecne of the shortstack means that
there is a good chance you will need to show the best hand down, and KJ is pretty weak in this spot.

Bandana boy

what actually happened was a q hit the turn he bet out 200 i min raised he didnt like it but called
river x he checked i put him in for his last 310 he moaned and groaned some more and flipped over AQ

marius

marius wrote:

are you asking us if we call or if we raise?
no and no.......
but you did and hit a Q???

Think I got there first - yeah for me.....
had the look of a 'I just won loads' story.....

fuzzbox

Bandana boy wrote:

I think as well he bets he is pot committed and he only bets (according to my read) with two pair or better so i lay down unless a q hits

It is a common problem for you to overestimate your opponents abililty to lay down a big hand. Big for them = Top pair.

I would prefer you are deeper in relation to the pot, and I would prefer QJ in this spot as that would give me 8 real outs. 9 flush "fake outs" and then maybe I can bluff a T or a 7 or 8 also.

Pots pretty big too - at 430 already (150 each from you guys, and 120 preflop). He only has 500 more. Its hard to lay down for that price, which is why I would prefer you to be deeper.