Law in relation to counterfit DVDs

JohnnySideburns

Hi,

Does anyone know if it is illegal to buy counterfit DVDs for private consumption? Does anyone know where abouts on www.irish-law.com this is legislated. If yes, can you send link?

hullaballoo

Firstly, it's conterfeit.

Secondly, counterfeit DVD's are illegal. So I assume this thread is purely academic. Be very careful.

padser

JohnnySideburns wrote:

Does anyone know if it is illegal to buy counterfit DVDs

Think about this one, the product is clearly illegal. So do you think its likely to be either legal to
a)purchase it
or
b)be in possension of it

If you are looking for the legisaltion it is almost certainly included in this act
http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/ZZA28Y2000S1.html
provided the work is a copyright work (if it wasnt then there wouldnt be 'conterfit' copies)

dermot_sheehan

JohnnySideburns wrote:

Hi,

Does anyone know if it is illegal to buy counterfit DVDs for private consumption? Does anyone know where abouts on www.irish-law.com this is legislated. If yes, can you send link?

There's been alot of rumour and myths about this forum without actually referring to caselaw or legislation to back it up. Basically for something to be illegal there must be a statute against it or a pretty old common law offence (like manslaughter), The act that deals with copyright in ireland makes it illegal to sell or import but not buy or domestically posess.

Look at s. 45 of the act
http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/ZZA28Y2000S45.html
A person infringes the copyright in a work where he or she without the licence of the copyright owner— (a) sells, rents or lends, or offers or exposes for sale, rental or loan,
(b) imports into the State, otherwise than for his or her private and domestic use,
(c) in the course of a business, trade or profession, has in his or her possession, custody or control, or makes available to the public, or
(d) otherwise than in the course of a business, trade or profession, makes available to the public to such an extent as to prejudice the interests of the owner of the copyright,
a copy of the work which is, and which he or she knows or has reason to believe is, an infringing copy of the work.

JohnnySideburns

Thank you gabhain7,

It's nice to get a reply from someone who knows what they are talking about, unlike the previous people to reply.

hullaballoo

JohnnySideburns wrote:

Thank you gabhain7,

It's nice to get a reply from someone who knows what they are talking about, unlike the previous people to reply.

Keep going and you're banned.

EducatedGuess

Being in the possession of a counterfeit d.v.d. or any other material that had been copied without the permission of the licence holder is an infridgment of copyright law and you can be charged with being in possession of 'stolen' goods with or without intent to supply. This merely means the property will be siezed unless you intend to supply. Section 45 deals with profession and trade I think its 46 that deals with private use.
46.—(1) A person infringes the copyright in a work where he or she, without the licence of the copyright owner—

(a) makes,

(b) sells, rents or lends, or offers or exposes for sale, rental or loan,

(c) imports into the State, or

(d) has in his or her possession, custody or control,

an article specifically designed or adapted for making copies of that work, knowing or having reason to believe that it has been or is to be used to make infringing copies.

(2) A person infringes the copyright in a work where he or she, without the licence of the copyright owner, transmits the work by means of a telecommunications system (otherwise than by broadcasting or inclusion in a cable programme service) knowing or having reason to believe that infringing copies of the work may be made by means of the reception of the transmission in the State or elsewhere.

EducatedGuess

I know the above may been seen as you must be intending to supply, but the mere fact that someone is in possession of a copy dvd etc means that you either have been in contact with someone who is supplying these copies or you intend to supply them as well.

dermot_sheehan

EducatedGuess wrote:

Being in the possession of a counterfeit d.v.d. or any other material that had been copied without the permission of the licence holder is an infridgment of copyright law and you can be charged with being in possession of 'stolen' goods with or without intent to supply. This merely means the property will be siezed unless you intend to supply. Section 45 deals with profession and trade I think its 46 that deals with private use.
46.—(1) A person infringes the copyright in a work where he or she, without the licence of the copyright owner—

(a) makes,

(b) sells, rents or lends, or offers or exposes for sale, rental or loan,

(c) imports into the State, or

(d) has in his or her possession, custody or control,

an article specifically designed or adapted for making copies of that work, knowing or having reason to believe that it has been or is to be used to make infringing copies.

(2) A person infringes the copyright in a work where he or she, without the licence of the copyright owner, transmits the work by means of a telecommunications system (otherwise than by broadcasting or inclusion in a cable programme service) knowing or having reason to believe that infringing copies of the work may be made by means of the reception of the transmission in the State or elsewhere.

Section 46 deals with copyright protection circumvention tools (read text after part d), you can't be charged with possession of stolen goods, section 18 of the Fraud and Theft offences act 2001 http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/ZZA50Y2001S18.html deals with possession of stolen goods, not goods which are infringing copies.

EducatedGuess

Yeah i know but I think for prosecution purposes a copy dvd is a circumvention tool. But as far as I am aware the Gardai and custom officials are not too concerned with the odd dvd, its only when discovered in bulk of numerous titles with or with out other equipment present.

dermot_sheehan

EducatedGuess wrote:

Yeah i know but I think for prosecution purposes a copy dvd is a circumvention tool. But as far as I am aware the Gardai and custom officials are not too concerned with the odd dvd, its only when discovered in bulk of numerous titles with or with out other equipment present.

A copied dvd is not "an article designed or adapted for making copies of that work" unless DVD technology has vastly advanced to the stage where DVDs can self replicate.

dermot_sheehan

EducatedGuess wrote:

I know the above may been seen as you must be intending to supply, but the mere fact that someone is in possession of a copy dvd etc means that you either have been in contact with someone who is supplying these copies or you intend to supply them as well.

It meant you met someone who's a copyright infringer who committed a criminal offence. Meeting a criminal offender, or indeed buying something off him, does not make you an offender.

Thirdfox

"Meeting a criminal offender, or indeed buying something off him, does not make you an offender."

I thought that handling stolen goods can be a criminal offence too?

dermot_sheehan

Thirdfox wrote:

"Meeting a criminal offender, or indeed buying something off him, does not make you an offender."

I thought that handling stolen goods can be a criminal offence too?

Yes, but although "copyright theft" and "stealing" is bandied about colloquially in reference to infringing copies, copyright infringment is completly different to larceny (i.e. physical theft of property). Copyright infringment is a criminal offence, but is a different offence to larceny.

Also s.18 of the Fraud and Theft Offences Act refers to stolen goods, not "stolen" intellectual property, or anything else.

seamus

gabhain7 wrote:

Also s.18 of the Fraud and Theft Offences Act refers to stolen goods, not "stolen" intellectual property, or anything else.

Precisely. Clearly you know more about this than I, but my understanding is when you buy a legal piece of copyrighted works, you are buying the right to use those works in a certain context (publically, privately, one-off, etc). Since you can't steal a "right", being in possession of a counterfeit item does not logically follow that you are in possession of stolen property in any form.

However, since distribution and performance are covered by copyright law, either of these acts without the copyright holder's permission is a breach of copyright.

So does this mean that you can be in possession of a counterfeit CD or DVD, but if you attempt to watch or listen to it, you're in breach of copyright law?

dermot_sheehan

seamus wrote:

Precisely. Clearly you know more about this than I, but my understanding is when you buy a legal piece of copyrighted works, you are buying the right to use those works in a certain context (publically, privately, one-off, etc). Since you can't steal a "right", being in possession of a counterfeit item does not logically follow that you are in possession of stolen property in any form.

Yep, basically handling stolen property deals with physical property rights, i.e. you're handling property acquired by theft or burgulary

seamus wrote:

However, since distribution and performance are covered by copyright law, either of these acts without the copyright holder's permission is a breach of copyright.

So does this mean that you can be in possession of a counterfeit CD or DVD, but if you attempt to watch or listen to it, you're in breach of copyright law?

Appears according to legislation it's perfectly legal to posess an infringing copy in a domestic environment, only if it's a public performance would there be an infringement.

Thirdfox

Public performance? Is that why they (sometimes) say that it is illegal to show this tape in schools, prisons, hospitals and oil rigs (?) ...so people are breaking the law when Johnny brings in Bambi into school to watch?

EducatedGuess

Good point Thirdfox. I am sorry to say that certain interpretations of law and what is actually in practice are too different things. I must say that IP was not my favourite subject in college but nonetheless obtaining any "good" and a good has been defined as any item that is tangible in nature. Therefore, if we go by what Gaghain7 is stating the only person that can be prosecuted for copyright is the person who is actually sitting in the cinema recording the picture. Having a copied DVD is in fact being in possession of a stolen good as that is an actual representation of an intangible right.

dermot_sheehan

EducatedGuess wrote:

Good point Thirdfox. I am sorry to say that certain interpretations of law and what is actually in practice are too different things.

Must say this is a legal discussion forum, but if you are privy to what actually does happen in practice do enlighten us. Please note that I have provided quotations from statute to backup my assertions, you've provided none.


It would hard to see how a prosecution for copyright infringement could stand against a domestic user of an infringing copy with the statute written the way it is however.

EducatedGuess wrote:

I must say that IP was not my favourite subject in college but nonetheless obtaining any "good" and a good has been defined as any item that is tangible in nature.

Could you please rephrase this, I don't understand what you're saying. A good goes without saying is a tangible item,

EducatedGuess wrote:

Therefore, if we go by what Gaghain7 is stating the only person that can be prosecuted for copyright is the person who is actually sitting in the cinema recording the picture.

Eh, no. Read the thread, the persons liable for copyright infringement are those who make a copy and then sell or offer it for sale or perform it in a public place.

EducatedGuess wrote:

Having a copied DVD is in fact being in possession of a stolen good as that is an actual representation of an intangible right.

Ok, know what larceny is, well actually it's now called theft since the Fraud and theft offences act 2001 repealed the larceny act 1916. It's the taking of something capable of being stolen without the consent of the owner. It refers to physical property. Dealing in stolen goods involves dealing with items which have been stolen, not that are infringing copies under copyright law.

So for the final time:

The Criminal Law that deals with handling stolen property does not cover handling infringing goods (unless of course the media they are on has been stolen from somewhere)