Catholicism and the Middle East

metrovelvet

I saw the film "Magdalene Laundries" last night and despite my overwhelming urges to want to kick the teeth into those nuns, I saw some similarities between Islam and Catholicism, particularly in the attitudes to female sexuality and subjugation, covering the head, the sexual potency of women's hair, the cruelty, the male authority.

Does anyone else see the connections? I thought an alternative title for the film could have been "The Irish Taliban."

Am I wrong or wasnt the Vatican at one point in Constantinople?

Is Protestantism the only religion with European origins?

UU

Hello metrovelvet

Yes there are connections of course but you have to understand that throughout history there has always been male dominance and in the Magdalene laundries many nuns abused there positions of power for bad. This isn't to say that every single nun was bad as there were good ones also. Many of these young girls were sent to these places as they had a baby out of wedlock which was a mortal sin back then and the babies were taken from the mother at birth and given up for adoption. The last laundry closed in 1991 - not very long ago.

With Islam is there is the whole thing of male dominance and most of the practises of wearing the berqua (the black robe) and even the headscarf isn't in the Koran the Islamic holy book but issues by authorities to put down women and they even put down men too. These are societies who follow what authorities say and are still quite conservative where free speech is limited.

The very early Christian Church was located in Constantinople (now called Istanbul in Turkey) until it was moved to Rome when Emperor Augustine declared that Pagan Rome would become a Christian state. I think it was known as the Third Council of Constantinople. Now Istanbul is the seat of the Eastern Orthodox Church I believe.

Protestantism came from Catholicism in which its roots came from Jesus who wasn't European but Middle Eastern. Jesus was a Jew from Galilee in Palestine so the Roman Church's roots are Middle Eastern but has adopted European so Protestantism has European origins, yes. It isn't the only European religion though as many ancient Pagan belief systems are from Europe also.

Correct me if I'm wrong as I'm just saying what I was taught in school which isn't always correct.

Some places go a little overboard(or a lot) with the burqa etc, but most of Islam doesn't tend to be that bad towards women at all. In places e.g. Kuwait the headscarf is completely optional. The multiple wife thing has so many conditions one can only realise it takes good care of women. I suppose there are fundies in every religion, but don't judge all of it by some of them

UU

bluewolf wrote:

Some places go a little overboard(or a lot) with the burqa etc, but most of Islam doesn't tend to be that bad towards women at all. In places e.g. Kuwait the headscarf is completely optional. The multiple wife thing has so many conditions one can only realise it takes good care of women. I suppose there are fundies in every religion, but don't judge all of it by some of them

Yes you're very right. Stereotyping and bigotry results in a lack of understanding. Actually when the Talliban were in rule in Afghanistan, most Islamic groups refused to recognise the Talliban's rule as Islamic but as Satanist!!! It just shows how far the the Talliban were from the beliefs of their religion.

The only thing about Kuwait is it's a very wealthy and materialistic society contrary to its neighbouring Islamic nations so that's probably why they are less severe. When I went to Tunisia in North Africa, it was rather liberal as many women didn't even were headscarves and many worked in places like banks and some were even businesswomen walking around in suits and briefcases! Turkey is supposed to be like that also.

Polygamy is when a spouse has more than one partner. Polygyny is the word for when one man has multiple wives (polyandry for women) and it is usually practised in areas where there are more women in proportion to men. Under Islamic law, a man is permitted to have up to four wives. You have to remember that many marriages in these places are arranged and there is little romance involved. The whole purpose is usually for procreation and survival. And yes, women are usually cared for well as it says so in the Koran: "Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because Allah has given the one more (strength) than the other, and because they support them from their means." The Book of Women 4.34.

Anyway, back to Christianity. What I've always found quite funny in Irish society of the past was that the women actually had a lot of power. In some households the woman would in fact rule. Ever read "Juno And The Paycock" by Sean O'Casey? The wife, Juno, scares the hell out of her husband! She says a lovely speech in it where she praise to the sacred heart of Jesus and Mary for peace and forgiveness. It really showed the beauty of Catholicism.
Here:

"Mother o' God, Mother o' god, have pity on us all! Blessed Virgin, where were you when my me darlin' son was riddled with bullets, when my me darlin' son was riddled with bullets? Sacred Heart o' Jesus take away our hearts of stone, and give us heats o' flesh! Take away this murdherin' hate, an' give us Thine eternal love!"

samb

metrovelvet wrote:

I saw the film "Magdalene Laundries" last night and despite my overwhelming urges to want to kick the teeth into those nuns, I saw some similarities between Islam and Catholicism, particularly in the attitudes to female sexuality and subjugation, covering the head, the sexual potency of women's hair, the cruelty, the male authority.

Does anyone else see the connections? I thought an alternative title for the film could have been "The Irish Taliban."

Am I wrong or wasnt the Vatican at one point in Constantinople?

Is Protestantism the only religion with European origins?

since protestantism is a branch of christianity, I would say it is only partailly of european origin. YOu are forgetting all the Nordic, Greek, Celtic, and Roman Gods. Do they not count because hardly anyone believes in them now? In years to come will christianity, Islam, and Judaism cease to be of middle eastern origin simply because hardly anyone believes in them? I don't think so.
Sorry for that last bit, got carried away with hope;)

Asiaprod

samb wrote:

You are forgetting all the Nordic, Greek, Celtic, and Roman Gods. Do they not count because hardly anyone believes in them now?

Strange, did I missunderstand, I thought that there we quite a few who believe in the gods you listed. :rolleyes:

hairyheretic

Asiaprod wrote:

Strange, did I missunderstand, I thought that there we quite a few who believe in the gods you listed. :rolleyes:

Yes, but in comparisson to the likes of christianity, we're not that many.

metrovelvet

samb wrote:

since protestantism is a branch of christianity, I would say it is only partailly of european origin. YOu are forgetting all the Nordic, Greek, Celtic, and Roman Gods. Do they not count because hardly anyone believes in them now? In years to come will christianity, Islam, and Judaism cease to be of middle eastern origin simply because hardly anyone believes in them? I don't think so.
Sorry for that last bit, got carried away with hope;)

I meant widely practised established religions today. From what I can see Greek polytheisim is mostly seen at a stretch in Jungian psychology and even then its not in the context of worship and ritual.

Catholicism Judaism and Islam will always be of ME origin because they were launched in the ME. Protestantism, though derived from Catholicim was initiated and developed in Europe. Perhaps Greek Orthodox also? But then isnt there some historical split from Constantinople which caused that too? Not sure.

But I definitely see this preoccupation with head covering and the role of women as something Catholicim and Islam share, though its far stricter in Islam imo.

samb

metrovelvet wrote:

I saw the film "Magdalene Laundries" last night and despite my overwhelming urges to want to kick the teeth into those nuns, I saw some similarities between Islam and Catholicism, particularly in the attitudes to female sexuality and subjugation, covering the head, the sexual potency of women's hair, the cruelty, the male authority.
?

Yes these two religions have been largely dominated by male conservatives. Because both books say so much on different issues people can justify aweful things in accordance with those books. Thankfully the books are so ambigioius and contradictary that many people now bend the teachings to fit their more modern outlook. Although I find this a bit silly, I welcome it. Yippee for A La Carte Catholicism.---now we need to incourage the growth of A La Carte Islam--the predjudice against Islam that is widespread in the West does not help this.

robindch

> similarities between Islam and Catholicism, particularly in the attitudes
> to female sexuality and subjugation

Within pre-atheistic societies, religions exist principally to provide absolute justification for the existence of the administrative and military classes. For this, the religious class needs to appeal both upwards to the power-brokers so that they'll allow the religious to continue to exist (for example, by co-operatively asserting the existence of a divine "right to rule"), but also downwards to the population at large. The easiest way to appeal to the population is to engage and justify their indwelt biological and evolutionary prejudices. These will include helping men to men assert reproductive or other influence over one or more women; justifying both sexes hating male homosexuals as "unmanly" or "unnatural" while omitting any mention of lesbians which both sexes generally find a turn-on; helping to incite the hatred of all against infidels, that is, people who are not members of your tribe; cheerfully selling a simple and self-aggrandizing picture of the world in place of a complex and incomplete one; and so on and so on.

In short, with the notable exception of Buddhism, most religions operate along broadly similar principles, so it's not really surprising to see the same practices operating in Irish wash-houses of thirty years ago, as I did in Manama city, Bahrain, last week.

Though I did think that wearing a burqa was an elegant solution to the problem of buying stuff unnoticed in the sex-shop on the first floor in the Seef Mall

metrovelvet

I believe MIchael Jackson has also taken to wearing a burkha. Give me some time I try to find a link with the picture. lol.

Samb - Christianity had a reformation and Catholics had a Vatican 2, but Islam just seems caught somewhere in time.

nubbintom

samb wrote:

Thankfully the books are so ambigioius and contradictary ..

How so?

Excelsior

UU wrote:

The very early Christian Church was located in Constantinople (now called Istanbul in Turkey) until it was moved to Rome when Emperor Augustine declared that Pagan Rome would become a Christian state. I think it was known as the Third Council of Constantinople. Now Istanbul is the seat of the Eastern Orthodox Church I believe.

What? This is utterly misleading. The early Christian church was decentralised with out any administrative headquarters. The Ecumenical period where 5 major cities shared the consensus making reponsibility for Christianity only ended with the schism.

uu wrote:

Protestantism came from Catholicism in which its roots came from Jesus who wasn't European but Middle Eastern. Jesus was a Jew from Galilee in Palestine so the Roman Church's roots are Middle Eastern but has adopted European so Protestantism has European origins, yes. It isn't the only European religion though as many ancient Pagan belief systems are from Europe also.

Protestantism is not a religion. It is a steam within a belief system (Christianity is not a religion either!!!). The belief system arises from Judaism which is categorically localised in origin to Palestine.

uu wrote:

Correct me if I'm wrong as I'm just saying what I was taught in school which isn't always correct.

Either the Irish school system is teaching incomplete nonsense or you have misunderstood.

UU

Excelsior wrote:

What? This is utterly misleading. The early Christian church was decentralised with out any administrative headquarters. The Ecumenical period where 5 major cities shared the consensus making reponsibility for Christianity only ended with the schism.

Protestantism is not a religion. It is a steam within a belief system (Christianity is not a religion either!!!). The belief system arises from Judaism which is categorically localised in origin to Palestine.

Either the Irish school system is teaching incomplete nonsense or you have misunderstood.

Well, I'm not A - Z of Christianity like you so I can make mistakes. Protestantism IS a religion as is Christianity and what you're saying now misleading too! True, the belief system did arise from Judaism but also from Christ's teachings later on! What is a belief system? A religion or a faith. Please talk sense and stop making Christianity more confusing than it already is.

metrovelvet

Excelsior please elaborate on what qualifies as a religion to you?

Creed, doctrine and sacriments are what I learned are the qualifications.

Protestantism is most certainly a religion as is Catholicism, which started out as a cult incidentally.

BrianCalgary

Both Catholicism and any of the protestant churches are denominations within Christianity. They are not different religions. They are all Christian as they follow Christ and recognize that salvation is through Him alone.

Chritianity is a religion which follows Jesus Christ.
Islam is a religion that follows Muhammed (Includes deifferent denominations such as Sufi and Shari'a and from what I understand a few more)
Buddhism is a religion that follows the steps (clarify this please Asia) attributed to Siddhartha Guatama.

wolfsbane

Brian Calgary said:

Both Catholicism and any of the protestant churches are denominations within Christianity. They are not different religions. They are all Christian as they follow Christ and recognize that salvation is through Him alone.

Chritianity is a religion which follows Jesus Christ.
Islam is a religion that follows Muhammed (Includes deifferent denominations such as Sufi and Shari'a and from what I understand a few more)
Buddhism is a religion that follows the steps (clarify this please Asia) attributed to Siddhartha Guatama.

I'm not sure what the objection to Christianity being a religion can be. Definition from an on-line dictionary: n.

Belief in and reverence for a supernatural power or powers regarded as creator and governor of the universe.
A personal or institutionalized system grounded in such belief and worship.
The life or condition of a person in a religious order.
A set of beliefs, values, and practices based on the teachings of a spiritual leader.
A cause, principle, or activity pursued with zeal or conscientious devotion.
That seems to include Christianity.

Yes, one can argue about whether one group is a religion or a part of a religion. So some argue that Roman Catholicism and Protestantism are not religions, but part of the one religion called Christianity. Many Protestants, including myself, would hold them to be different religions, just as with the Mormons, Jehovah Witnesses and the other groups who name the name of Christ but do not agree on several fundamental doctrines. But one religion or many, it is all religion.

macguch

May be a bit off topic but i read in the opinions section of a paper a few weeks ago about a man and his brother in law travelling into Saudi Arabia, Upon entry in customs the security conviscated his rosary beads and dropped them in the bin right in front of his face. I dont know why we should be expected to show so much tolerance in our country when we are shown none.