Sinn Fein Ard Fheis rantfest

democrates

Just caught some of the trade unionist/political activists speeches.
I like their support for the plight of the downtrodden, but I think the analyses of the problems they appear to proceed from are fundamentally flawed, hence I'd have little faith in proposed solutions.

A) They make the same mistake as Labour and the Workers party in buying into the concept that society will forever be divided into employees and employers, insted of questioning it. First problem here is that they appeal only to a sector of socety, so cannot pretend to offer a realistic alternative government. Second problem is that they miss the real solution to that problem, democratic co-operatives owned by those who work in them.

Their fight against a race to the bottom justifiably slams it's architects, the parasitic investor elite, but misses or avoids the international dimension which is the key to solving it. No nation or group of nations can fight alone against globalisation. If Ireland and/or europe focusses only on protectionism, labour standards, and higher government spending on services, production will go elsewhere, our nations will go into decline. While trade and capital are globalised, the global democracy necessary to ensure it works for all citizens is all but absent, with the wto the only forum. What is necessary is a global political movement encompassing the aspiration of global democratic solidarity, working carefully and steadily in concord to that end.

It seems to be an electoral strategy based on fuelling discontent. Lot's of noise about people getting the sh1tty end of the stick, the only answer is they'll stand by their side in the trenches shouting at the enemy, and if given the chance make laws to deliver a trove of goodies. But nothing about the prosperity necessary to deliver that decent society, because that would mean recognising the value of entrepreneurs, who are according to all this rhetoric the enemy.

murphaph

Yeah I saw some of that b0ll0x too. They really are completely without substance aren't they? The only articulate one I saw was O'Caoilean, the rest were, quite frankly quite embarrasing specimens. Virtually every single speaker seemed to refer to some magic all-Ireland solution to all the woes (which all seem to be southern woes, sh!tty health service etc.-why do they want out of the Union with their NHS again?).

Some gobsh!te was whinging that british subjects in NI couldn't vote in an irish presidential election. Boo frickin hoo. I don't even think british subjects should be allowed to be president of a republic that only extends to 26 counties and not 6 which are part of a foreign country.

The SF fad will pass like Labour's crest quickly washed up on the shore. If FF can deliver doctor only medical cards and little sops like that then people will stick with them.

A Dub in Glasgo

Are you saying an Irish citizen should not be able to become President?

murphaph

I'm saying irish citizenship should not be available to people from the UK just because they are born and living in one part of it called Northern Ireland.

A Dub in Glasgo

You voted against the Good Friday agreement then?

murphaph

Well you're allowed to be offended and I'm allowed to offend. We're both from democratic countries afterall. If I believed myself to be Swedish I wouldn't be entitled to a Swedish passport. NI is part of the UK. I believe that if you want an irish passport you should have to move here and live and work here for a minimum of five years like any other naturalised citizen has to do. I know plenty of Poles and Romanians that are way more committed to the Republic of Ireland than many northerners who have a passport alright but have nothing else in common with us. Loads of prods on RoI side of the border still 'feel' british but they're not entitled to a british passport (except in limited circumstances).

constitutionus

murphaph wrote:

Well you're allowed to be offended and I'm allowed to offend. We're both from democratic countries afterall. If I believed myself to be Swedish I wouldn't be entitled to a Swedish passport. NI is part of the UK. I believe that if you want an irish passport you should have to move here and live and work here for a minimum of five years like any other naturalised citizen has to do. I know plenty of Poles and Romanians that are way more committed to the Republic of Ireland than many northerners who have a passport alright but have nothing else in common with us. Loads of prods on RoI side of the border still 'feel' british but they're not entitled to a british passport (except in limited circumstances).

actually seeing as he was born PRE the good friday agreement he's fully entitled to an irish passport and citizenship because of articles 2 and 3 of the constitution. as was ANYONE born on the island of ireland. citizenship is an entitlement NOT the whim of particular governments or business interests

Cork

murphaph wrote:

They really are completely without substance aren't they? The only articulate one I saw was O'Caoilean, the rest were, quite frankly quite embarrasing specimens.

Without their illegal army - they are pretty sad bunch alright.

SF has achieved nothing.

It is amazing they have a conference with the crap economic policies they have. I find it amazing - they showed up.

The cailibre of the public representatives is also poor.

I know they play the anti establishment card - but they are very partitionist.

All the ranting the got up to after the UK government withdrew their allowances.

samb

Gerry still uses the word Commrades I noticed. Sounds like Castro

Cork

cormacstrain wrote:

and admittedly this ... makes no sense to me considering how well Sinn Fein have done electorially over the past few years

A number of council and Dail seats?

Wow!

8% or 9% in opinion polls - How shinner goals have calapsed.

This was the prty that wanted to get the BRITS OUT.

Because of the needless violence - the shinners only cemented the partition of this country.

IRA existance and continued criminal activity is holding up political progress on this island.

REBEL CORK

Cork wrote:

A number of council and Dail seats?

Wow!

8% or 9% in opinion polls - How shinner goals have calapsed.

This was the prty that wanted to get the BRITS OUT.

Because of the needless violence - the shinners only cemented the partition of this country.

IRA existance and continued criminal activity is holding up political progress on this island.

Needless violence? Are you serious, republicans had no other choice.

Also I suppose the DUP are not holding up the political progress on this island at all are they?

oscarBravo

REBEL CORK wrote:

Needless violence? Are you serious, republicans had no other choice.

Apart, of course, from the choice to pursue a strategy of non-violence. Y'know, like the SDLP. And Ghandi.

Cork

REBEL CORK wrote:

Needless violence? Are you serious, republicans had no other choice.

Also I suppose the DUP are not holding up the political progress on this island at all are they?

The violence was needless and stupid.

John Hume was streets ahead of the narrow provo mindset.

What is more - John Hume has been proved right.

murphaph

REBEL CORK wrote:

Needless violence? Are you serious, republicans had no other choice.

...to do this?;

A 3 year-old boy named Johnathan Ball died at the scene whilst buying a Mother's Day card, accompanied by his babysitter. A 12-year-old boy, Tim Parry who was sitting on the bin at the time, took the full force of the blast. Five days later he died of his injuries.

I think I'd have found an alternative way but then again, I'm not SFIRA scum.

REBEL CORK wrote:

Also I suppose the DUP are not holding up the political progress on this island at all are they?

Would you rush hurredly into government with the folks who perpetrated the above on 2 kiddies out on a sunny saturday afternoon? It's gonna take some serious time for SFIRA to be trusted, if ever. We would already have a fully devolved and functioning assembly if the SDLP had been left alone 35 years ago. I have a distinct disliking for the DUP and their religious zealotry but if I had to choose between them and a liberal group of murderers then the DUP would get my first preference!

A Dub in Glasgo

murphaph wrote:

then the DUP would get my first preference!

Sounds like this would be your vote anyway (if you lived in that foreign land they call NI)

democrates

When it comes to such discussions it's amazing that so many are more focussed on playing the blame game over the past or theorising on panto-politics. Does anyone else out there give a sh1t about where we go from here? About what POLICIES are going to work for the people?

murphaph

Health; I'd like to see a phased introduction of universally free healthcare at the point of delivery. Doctor only medical cards are a good first step. Hopefully Harney will get that pushed through with the IMO and then we can look to the next phase.

Transport; a crucial aspect of our daily lives. FF/PD have committed to T21 and all in all (apart from some timelines) I'm happy enough and so long as I see sustained progress on it I'll be kept happy.

Planning; This is where I believe the currnt government have failed the most-there has been no real attempt made at implementing the NSS which was a pretty good idea. The will isn't there to stand up to uber small towns and villages and deny them a dept. of agriculture office in favour of focused decentralisation, building up regional urban centres like Galway and Sligo.

These are my main points of interest. Do I think SF can deliver a better result than FF? No. People underestimate how difficult it is to run a country. I have no party loyalty but do not believe I would be so much better off under FG/LAB/SF etc/ than under FF that I will risk a change of government. The likes of FG have demonstrated a major lack of undrstanding the principal transport issues in Dublin for a start. They could shred T21 in a heartbeat. Enda Kenny is in favour of blanket reopening of the WRC! While Dublin chokes. ***Newsflash enda*** Dublin is the economic heart of Ireland and must be the priority, at least Cullen had the balls to say as much and that's not what his constituents want to hear.

Cork

democrates wrote:

About what POLICIES are going to work for the people?

Yes - the shinners need to use their influence to end IRA criminality.

The shinners also need to stop calling for the early release of garda killers.

The Shinners should also start condemning cold blooded murder of Irish citizens.

The continued existnce of the criminal IRA is holding up political progress on this island.

Gaussian

murphaph wrote:

Health; I'd like to see a phased introduction of universally free healthcare at the point of delivery. Doctor only medical cards are a good first step. Hopefully Harney will get that pushed through with the IMO and then we can look to the next phase.

QUOTE]


Perhaps you should keep more up to date Doctor only medical cards are available. However as is the case with the full medical card the income levels are set very low so no where the number that Harney announced will be issued.
Of course there is the ability of the HSE to use discretion which translates as get your local FF/PD TD to lobby for you for something you should already be entitled to.

On the Issue of Health care what we really need is for Doctors to be grouped together in a single local medical centre operating for at least 12 hours a day with the ability to treat minor injuries and do x rays
Within 500 metres of my doctors surgery there are 4 other doctor surgeries all operating for 2 hours in the morning and 2 hours in the afternoon No saturdays or Sundays 8 doctors in total with a bit of organisation they could be all located in the one Surgery operating throughout the day.
There would be no loss of income for the individual Doctors as the same number of people if not more would be attending the surgeries.

At the moment if you have a minor injury outside of the 2 hours in the morning or 2 hours in the afternoon or god forbid the weekend you have no choice but to join the long queues in Aand E.

Anyway sorry for the off topic Rant

Cork

Gaussian wrote:

At the moment if you have a minor injury outside of the 2 hours in the morning or 2 hours in the afternoon or god forbid the weekend you have no choice but to join the long queues in Aand E.

Anyway sorry for the off topic Rant

People going to A+E for minor injury is a part of the problem.

Great discussing health on a thread on SF - A party that does not condemn Warrington or Enniskillen or call the murder of Jean McConville a crime.

Sand

When it comes to such discussions it's amazing that so many are more focussed on playing the blame game over the past or theorising on panto-politics. Does anyone else out there give a sh1t about where we go from here? About what POLICIES are going to work for the people?

Anyone can state a policy. I can stand up and happily recite verbatim socialist dogma. Wouldnt mean Id believe in it, or apply it when making decisions. And when you elect a government, you elect them to make decisions about problems and deal with issues were not even aware of yet. Policy might give an idea of a persons views, perhaps a misleading one, but the nature of the organisation or individual is as least as important and probably more so. SFIRA might talk the talk, but they dont back it up. They continue to endorse violence and terrorism, they continue to indulge in criminality and espionage, and they continue to refuse to co-operate with murder investigations. This is even before people evaluate their pathetic policies, and already theyre unsuitable for any public office whatsoever. Even if they were advocating free trade, low tax liberalism Id still never vote for them because of the nature of the organisation. How can you have serious criminals becoming Ministers for Justice, or running the economy whilst also running a black market in smuggling and money laundering?

Hence the "blame game" is important - we have to hold anyone who wants to enter public office accountable for their actions and views.

Gaussian

Cork wrote:

People going to A+E for minor injury is a part of the problem.

Great discussing health on a thread on SF - A party that does not condemn Warrington or Enniskillen or call the murder of Jean McConville a crime.

Hello that is my point people have no choice but to attend A and E so provide an alternative to going to A and E

And FF and FG do not condemn various acts carried out by their founding fathers during 1916 , the war of Independence or the Civil war nor do the Labour Party condemn James Connolly and the violent acts he engaged in.

Cork

Gaussian wrote:

Hello that is my point people have no choice but to attend A and E so provide an alternative to going to A and E

And FF and FG do not condemn various acts carried out by their founding fathers during 1916 , the war of Independence or the Civil war nor do the Labour Party condemn James Connolly and the violent acts he engaged in.

Bertie was right pointing out to the shinners today that there is only one Óglaigh na h-Eireann. That is the Irish Army. It is about time the shinners and their buddies began to cop onto this.

SF/IRA had zero mandate for their "war". The "war" is over but there seems to be no end in sight for IRA criminality.

FF and FG are not calling for the early release of the cold blooded murderers of Gerry McCabe at their Ard Fheis. SF/IRA are a disgrace.

How much has IRA activity cost this economy?

Has Ferris, Adams etc any idea?

Perhaps if the IRA stopped criminal activity then more revenues would be available for health.

Does SF have any idea how much illegal dumping and fuel laundering is costing the state?

The shinners seem absolutely clueless.

murphaph

Gaussian wrote:

Hello that is my point people have no choice but to attend A and E so provide an alternative to going to A and E

There's a primary health care centre being built across the road from me right now. They are doing something about primary healthcare. It's slow and painful yes, but people need to be realistic-we have half a century of catching up to do. Every aspect of society needs money spending on it and it's a delicate job balancing it out.

Gaussian

Cork wrote:

Bertie was right pointing out to the shinners today that there is only one Óglaigh na h-Eireann. That is the Irish Army. It is about time the shinners and their buddies began to cop onto this.

SF/IRA had zero mandate for their "war". The "war" is over but there seems to be no end in sight for IRA criminality.

FF and FG are not calling for the early release of the cold blooded murderers of Gerry McCabe at their Ard Fheis. SF/IRA are a disgrace.

How much has IRA activity cost this economy?

Has Ferris, Adams etc any idea?

Perhaps if the IRA stopped criminal activity then more revenues would be available for health.

Does SF have any idea how much illegal dumping and fuel laundering is costing the state?

The shinners seem absolutely clueless.

And that has exactly what to do with what I posted

We seem to be stuck in groundhog day were people will just not move forward no matter what.

For years the peace process was held up by calls for decommisioning now that has been done we move onto ciminality and back to events that happened ten years ago.

If there are people who were in the IRA or are still in the IRA that are involved in criminal behaviour then as in any democratic society the Gardai should deal with them. If they have any links to SF then this should be publicised as it is when corruption in FF is uncovered for example.


It seems to me that criminality is the new bone that people who are intent on stifling political progress have sunk their teeth into

Gaussian

murphaph wrote:

There's a primary health care centre being built across the road from me right now. They are doing something about primary healthcare. It's slow and painful yes, but people need to be realistic-we have half a century of catching up to do. Every aspect of society needs money spending on it and it's a delicate job balancing it out.

That is interesting will it operate something along the lines of what I suggested in my post.

While I agree that we are catching up on a lack of investment for years it begs the question as to why the government were giving people who already have money more money in the SSIAs rather than spend that money on primary care centres for example
How much further down the road would we be if that Billion a year had been spent on this and on Public transport for example

Cork

Gaussian wrote:

For years the peace process was held up by calls for decommisioning now that has been done we move onto ciminality and back to events that happened ten years ago.

Provo criminality is more recent.

BRITISH MPs, such as Adams seem to be clueless.

What is Adams doing about IRA criminality?

What about fuel rackets, illegal dumping, Joe Rafferty?

The Shinners don't seem to be addressing such issues.

Let them welcome back the Columbia 3 and call for the early release of Garda killers - this is SF.

A Dub in Glasgo

Cork wrote:

BRITISH MPs, such as Adams seem to be clueless.


.

Irish MPs in the UK Parliament

Cork
FF would regard Gerry Adams as an Irish MP

Cork

Earthman wrote:

Cork
FF would regard Gerry Adams as an Irish MP

Point taken.

Irish MP or member of the British House of Commons.

constitutionus

was listening to the ard feis on rte last night and i do have to admit there was ONE thing gerry said that is indisputable.

the maistream parties DID abandon 1916 as a celebration. all the waffle in rescent months about SF "highjacking" it by FF and FG is exactly that.they did EVERYTHING in their power to distance themselve from that event

to their SHAME .

if the 1916 celebrations are viewed as a SF thing, they have no one to blame but themselves

constitutionus

Cork wrote:

Point taken.

Irish MP or member of the British House of Commons.

just out of interest. would that make devalera a british taoseach when he ran for the dail in belfast

murphaph

Gaussian wrote:

That is interesting will it operate something along the lines of what I suggested in my post.

I believe so. There are already a couple of those doctors co-ops on the southside but none at all on the northside for some reason.

Gaussian wrote:

While I agree that we are catching up on a lack of investment for years it begs the question as to why the government were giving people who already have money more money in the SSIAs rather than spend that money on primary care centres for example
How much further down the road would we be if that Billion a year had been spent on this and on Public transport for example

A fair point, but at the time inflation was rampant and this was seen as a way to stop people spending money. A good way of doing that? Probably not and yes, you will claim that the poor are subsiding the rich and they are to an extent, but it is a rare example where middle earners can get something for nothing from the government, and most of the country are middle earners and so I have no doubt that the SSIA feel good factor will help FF come next election.

Cork

constitutionus wrote:

just out of interest. would that make devalera a british taoseach when he ran for the dail in belfast

De Valera was an American.

But every one born on the island is entitled to Irish citizenship.

They continue to endorse violence and terrorism, they continue to indulge in criminality and espionage, and they continue to refuse to co-operate with murder investigations. This is even before people evaluate their pathetic policies, and already theyre unsuitable for any public office whatsoever. Even if they were advocating free trade, low tax liberalism Id still never vote for them because of the nature of the organisation. How can you have serious criminals becoming Ministers for Justice, or running the economy whilst also running a black market in smuggling and money laundering?

Sand - hits the nail on the head here. SF needs to clean up its act.

The Media, McDowell, Bertie, DUP, IMC, PSNI,Blair etc are all to blame. But SF/IRA are never to blame.

Spin Fein have done little to stop criminality. But if anybody knows differant - let me know.

What annoys me most about SF is their atitude to life. Incidents like the post office raid in Adare, Joe Rafferty and Robert McCartney have turned me off SF.

I actually once voted for SF. I come from a very republican family. But I feel criminality and taking of life has nothing to do with true republicanism.

Apart from that - I have very little to say on this subject.

Gaussian

Cork wrote:

Provo criminality is more recent.

BRITISH MPs, such as Adams seem to be clueless.

What is Adams doing about IRA criminality?

What about fuel rackets, illegal dumping, Joe Rafferty?

The Shinners don't seem to be addressing such issues.

Let them welcome back the Columbia 3 and call for the early release of Garda killers - this is SF.

Well in this society we leave the policing of criminality to the Gardai

If criminality is ongoing as you suggest then it is up to the Gardai to investigate and arrest and charge anyone involved it is then up to the courts to decide on guilt or innocence.

A Dub in Glasgo

Stick around a bit longer and you will find that the above process is meaningless to some. An article in a tabloid newpaper will suffice for proof.

Zombrex

Gaussian wrote:

Well in this society we leave the policing of criminality to the Gardai

If criminality is ongoing as you suggest then it is up to the Gardai to investigate and arrest and charge anyone involved it is then up to the courts to decide on guilt or innocence.

And it is also up to Sinn Fein as a (supposeably) a democractic political party, to distance themselves as much as humanly possible from any form of criminality.

They don't do this, they don't even attempt to do this, which is a very worrying sign.

constitutionus

Cork wrote:

But every one born on the island is entitled to Irish citizenship.

not anymore , thank you micheal mac "if i had done my job we wouldnt be in this situation " dowell

Gaussian

Wicknight wrote:

And it is also up to Sinn Fein as a (supposeably) a democractic political party, to distance themselves as much as humanly possible from any form of criminality.

They don't do this, they don't even attempt to do this, which is a very worrying sign.

As far as I know Sinn Fein do not support criminal activity I have yet to hear any of them saying that they support criminality.


Perhaps you could give an example of where SF have aligned themselves to criminal activity or where they have not distanced themselves from it just so we are clear as to what we are talking about

Cork

Gaussian wrote:

As far as I know Sinn Fein do not support criminal activity I have yet to hear any of them saying that they support criminality.

Shinner westminister allownces were withdrawn for good reason.

Zombrex

Gaussian wrote:

As far as I know Sinn Fein do not support criminal activity I have yet to hear any of them saying that they support criminality.

You can support criminality without saying you support it. The Mafia in Italy and America never said they supported criminality either.

Gaussian wrote:

Perhaps you could give an example of where SF have aligned themselves to criminal activity or where they have not distanced themselves from it just so we are clear as to what we are talking about

Ok, of the top of my head, the most recent example would be Toireasa Ferris failing to condemn the shooting of Jerry McCabe. To me that would be a no brainer, IRA rob a post office and shoot dead a Garda. Whats not to condemn?

The you have Robert McCarthy and the Northen Bank robbery. All this in the last 2 years.

ISAW

Wicknight wrote:

...
of f the top of my head, the most recent example would be Toireasa Ferris failing to condemn the shooting of Jerry McCabe. To me that would be a no brainer, IRA rob a post office and shoot dead a Garda. Whats not to condemn?

You would be wrong about that! I believe Gerry Adams originally condemned the killing but subsequently found out the IRA did it. He then changed his mind. He doesn't involve himself in the "politics of condemnation" or some such newspeak nowadays.

Zombrex

ISAW wrote:

You would be wrong about that! I believe Gerry Adams originally condemned the killing but subsequently found out the IRA did it. He then changed his mind. He doesn't involve himself in the "politics of condemnation" or some such newspeak nowadays.

I stand corrected

St_Crispin

Wicknight wrote:

You can support criminality without saying you support it. The Mafia in Italy and America never said they supported criminality either.



Ok, of the top of my head, the most recent example would be Toireasa Ferris failing to condemn the shooting of Jerry McCabe. To me that would be a no brainer, IRA rob a post office and shoot dead a Garda. Whats not to condemn?

The you have Robert McCarthy and the Northen Bank robbery. All this in the last 2 years.

To be fair with the ferris woman, she said last night she didn't support the killing of Jerry McCabe. But she wouldn't condemn criminality in general. (I don't think that's any good. But I just wanted to set the matter straight)

But what would you expect from a woman who's dad was implicated in arms running and drug smuggling for the ra.

St_Crispin

Just to make sure, she is martin ferris's daughter isn't she?

constitutionus

St_Crispin wrote:

To be fair with the ferris woman, she said last night she didn't support the killing of Jerry McCabe. But she wouldn't condemn criminality in general. (I don't think that's any good. But I just wanted to set the matter straight)

But what would you expect from a woman who's dad was implicated in arms running and drug smuggling for the ra.

she's a haughey?

ghostdancer

St_Crispin wrote:

But what would you expect from a woman who's dad was implicated in arms running and drug smuggling for the ra.

martin ferris has never been implicated or arrested for drug smuggling actually.

Cork wrote:

Shinner westminister allownces were withdrawn for good reason.

yes, and reinstated since, as there was no evidence whatsoever which backed up the reasons given for their withdrawl.

Cork

ghostdancer wrote:

yes, and reinstated since, as there was no evidence whatsoever which backed up the reasons given for their withdrawl.

Good reasons were given.

Did the shinners not put on a court challange?

ghostdancer

Cork wrote:

Good reasons were given.

Did the shinners not put on a court challange?

good reasons in your view perhaps. idle specualation without any facts presented to the public to those without an axe to grind. doesn't change the fact that they were reinstated as there was no evidence which suggested that they were right to.

i don't know if they did or not. not to the best of my knowledge. either way there clearly wasn't enough, if any, evidence to support the reasons for withdrawing in the first place.

democrates

Possible Scenario:
The paramilitaries view seems to be that they were at war, so that meant anything done in a war situation, they could do. The death of innocents at their hands would be seen as, in American parlance, collateral damage, and not to be condemned as it was part of the war effort.
Their actions were simply criminal to those of us who have perceived ourselves to be living in peacetime, and even if the war argument were accpted, the geneva convention was not always respected.

As part of that it seems they had an interesting take on how to handle the drugs and general crime issue. On the one hand kneecappings, the rumours were that they were keeping drugs out of local communities. Others say elements of the paramilitaries got involved in the operation of the drugs business which was going to operate there one way or another, ostensibly to co-opt the funds for their war rather than watch the ascendance of ordinary decent criminals in their midst.

The disarmament of the IRA would now present questions for drugland. Now any scuzz can rise to be a druglord and take all that money, except when the IRA laid down it's arms and most retired, maybe some left and continued what was their war effort as normal crime gangs.

For me this view fits well with what we do know. Thoughts?