Education vs Experience

Siogfinsceal

Spent 4 years of my life in college. Rock hard degree - subjects ranged from all of the software design topics (programming, java, algorithms etc) and business topics (sales, management, law, company strucure, marketing etc.)
applied for a job internally few months ago- got turned down due to 'lack of management experience'. person who got the job has been a manager for 2 years but does not have any qualification in it. They are great and well deserve it Im just gettin frustrated having spent 4 years of my life. Ive been a manager in a different industry before but not in an office. Frustrating as if I do not have the experience and my education doesnt count how do I get there? I would honestly tell any kid leaving school only got to college for 2 years unless you actually need a degree (ie doctor, lawyer etc) cos it doesnt seem to matter when you start working - experience goes above education

joeyrat

Yea, that sucks a bit!

But for me, I work in the position that I went to college & got my degree for, & I can honestly say that experience outweighs education.

My degree means nothing to me. It initially got my foot in the door, but after that it's all down to experience & I'd hire someone with that far sooner than someone with a pretty piece of paper that says degree on it.

Pack3t3rroR

Siogfinsceal wrote:

Spent 4 years of my life in college. Rock hard degree - subjects ranged from all of the software design topics (programming, java, algorithms etc) and business topics (sales, management, law, company strucure, marketing etc.)
applied for a job internally few months ago- got turned down due to 'lack of management experience'. person who got the job has been a manager for 2 years but does not have any qualification in it. They are great and well deserve it Im just gettin frustrated having spent 4 years of my life. Ive been a manager in a different industry before but not in an office. Frustrating as if I do not have the experience and my education doesnt count how do I get there? I would honestly tell any kid leaving school only got to college for 2 years unless you actually need a degree (ie doctor, lawyer etc) cos it doesnt seem to matter when you start working - experience goes above education

Well i have to agree with you 100% on this mate. I myself spent 5 years in college. I have 3 Certs, 1 Diploma and 1 Degree and people with any kind of experenice will get the job over an educated person. Another thing to note is that some companies in my opinion don't seem to care about your education and will just pay you the same amount of money as a person with no education. It makes me feel like i wasted 5 years of my life studying for nothing.

I think the only way you will get a job in your field or the money you deserve for the time you have spent in college is if you travel abroad to work.

But then, why should we feel we have to do this...?

Megatron

I have it the other way around now.

I have 11 years experence, yet i'm being told that doesn't really come into it as i don't have a degree to back me up.
I'm top of every Stat that have in the team .
Yet i can't advance any further unless i get a ickle bit of paper saying i can do something that i've been doing for 11 years ...

ZiabR

Megatron wrote:

I have it the other way around now.

I have 11 years experence, yet i'm being told that doesn't really come into it as i don't have a degree to back me up.
I'm top of every Stat that have in the team .
Yet i can't advance any further unless i get a ickle bit of paper saying i can do something that i've been doing for 11 years ...

Yeah there seems to be a very strange thing going on here. Its like if you want to progress in a company both in position and money you need the piece of paper and if i want to progress in a company i need experience.

Just seems companies will use you for as long as you will take and if you bail, its no skin off their noses.

The way i see it is, you can't have it both ways and 1 way is not good enough...

Wickla in Blaa

Being the PC industry myself, everyone seems to have the piece of paper and experience seems to be whats required , it's the catch 22 of the work market, you can have a job unless you've experience and you can't get experience without a job.

ARGH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Siogfinsceal

yeah it sort of devalues our educational system doesnt it? I mean 4 years of education is treated as less valuable that 2 years experience

AngryBadger

Having a similar issue here at the moment. In the middle of finishing my masters, and recently applied for an entry level lab position, just want to get some hands on experience and some moola for the next year or two.

They turned me down on the grounds that they felt I'd "be more suited to a managerial position and be repressed in a laboratory setting", to say nothing of the amount of time I've already spent working in labs, or that my qualifications relate directly to this.

*shrug* c'est la vie

MorningStar

Siogfinsceal wrote:

yeah it sort of devalues our educational system doesnt it? I mean 4 years of education is treated as less valuable that 2 years experience

Maybe it doesn't devalue it but you think it should have more value than the reality. I know people with degrees who can't do the job and people with one years experience can do the job better and faster.

I worked in a company that hired lots of graduates stright from college. They were clueless and thought a lot more of themselves than they were worth. Many claiming they had better knowledge of how the company should be run.

I certainlt would not hire a fresh graduate for a job unless they have worked a preal job for at least a summer. Ones that traveled and worked summers selling ice cream or the like think they are all experienced and worldly but far from it.

Getting a management job in an IT company without any experience of the environment would be next to imposible. The management nature and knowledge needed certainly won't come from a college or another environment.

Tobias Greeshman

I was always told they won't even look at you unless you have a degree, then when I got my degree, they need 1.5 - 2 years experience. IMO you need the degree to get noticed and then experience is where its all at from there on in.

Siog: in the case of the manager, he/she had experience so would be able to deal with problems maybe they encountered before and be a competent manager as a result, since they done it in the past. Not saying you're not but they're going to take the person who has good backround experience in the job at hand.

In short all you can do is get your foot in the door and get as much experience as you can get to climb the career ladder.

decimal

I did a ****e leaving cert, I couldn't do any courses because of low points. I then went to do a PLC course, which got me into college. I didn't need many points to do Multimedia in computers, but I was ****e in school in my later years. So I started college and by the second year came around I was a full time stoner working a part time job.

I failed college before I sat my exams.

I got a lucky break with a multimedia company, been working with them for over 2 years now, I am the only person working with them, my employers fired 7 other people and kept me on. I'm just a lucky SOB. The only downside to all this is that if I want to leave the country and start somewhere new, I don't have an education to back me up.

There's good and bad sides to college.

Wickla in Blaa

AngryBadger wrote:

Having a similar issue here at the moment. In the middle of finishing my masters, and recently applied for an entry level lab position, just want to get some hands on experience and some moola for the next year or two.

They turned me down on the grounds that they felt I'd "be more suited to a managerial position and be repressed in a laboratory setting", to say nothing of the amount of time I've already spent working in labs, or that my qualifications relate directly to this.

*shrug* c'est la vie

My Fiance had the exact same issues as she was applying for jobs in a different profession (working People with Special Needs) as she had a degree in Valuation Surveying. Even though she had decideded that she wanted to devoted her life to peolpe with disabilities etc. she was allways basically told, you are too qualified and will do a runner when a job in your other qualified profession arrives. (but was given the impression that otherwards she'ld have the job)

Luckily she managed to talk her way in at the grounmd level and is now loving her new found profession for over 3 years and has a new degree in Social Care to back it up.

Lemo

Siogfinsceal wrote:

Ive been a manager in a different industry before but not in an office. Frustrating as if I do not have the experience and my education doesnt count how do I get there? I would honestly tell any kid leaving school only got to college for 2 years unless you actually need a degree (ie doctor, lawyer etc) cos it doesnt seem to matter when you start working - experience goes above education

Since it was an internal thing, my advice would be to go to your boss and ask for a chat. Ask what you can do to give yourself a better chance of moving up the ranks next time a job like that comes up. It might be training, taking on responsibility for something etc. etc.

This is a great strategy because:

a) You will be flagging your ambition
b) You will be showing your initiative and a desire to develop
c) You will get a clear indication of what they expect from a manager
d) If you do what they suggest, it's quite hard for them to overlook you next time

There's no downside as long as you stay away from negative stuff about having more qualifications than the other person etc. Any good employer will be delighted. They are most probably thinking to themselves that you're really pissed off and demotivated right now so a positive approach will be a huge relief to them (I'm assuming you don't work for someone like Michael O'Leary or Irish Ferries :-)

Good luck.

b3t4

After recently graduating I'm well aware of people who have that piece of paper and haven't a clue what the degree was about. Experience often speaks louder than words.

I went to UL and was lucky to get a work placement in 2nd year of college. ( I think this is a vital requirement for anyone that wants to do a degree) I worked in that company for 7mnths. I was a software tester in this job.

I then used that experience and college work to get me a job for the summer of 3rd year as a developer.

And now I'm in a very good company starting off as a graduate developer.

Go after the companies that are willing to take you in as a newbie. There are quite a few out there you just have to take the time out to look.

It takes time. There is no rush surely?? Rome wasn't built in a day and all that.

Edit:And what Lemo said :-)

seamus

Experience allows you the confidence to deal with and adapt to situations.

For example, who do you think would be better at installing a network system for a business - A graduate fresh out of a four-year degree, or someone's who been installing networks for the last four years?

The benefit to a degree is that it fills in the gaps that experience misses. Plenty of roles will provide tonnes of experience, but at the sacrifice of flexibility to alter your role. The longer you do the role, the more comfortable you are with it, but also the quicker you find yourself pigeonholed.
With a degree to back up this experience, you are building the experience, but still have a foundation in other areas of the industry, and could easily switch roles or add extra tasks to your current role without having to spend massive amounts of time reading up.

Take for example, someone who's been working as a Junior Sys Admin (I.T. is all I know, sorry guys) for the last two years, and has suddenly been asked to take the responsibilities as webmaster of the company's website on top of their role.
With a degree under their belt, the chances are they've some experience with programming, writing web pages, databases, etc.
If they've purely been working as a sys admin for that time, they may have hacked together some code from bits found on the web, but the entire nature of actual programming and coding will be foreign to them.

All the above said, that's not a set rule. I've worked with people with degrees who are painfully unflexible and undereducated, and I've worked with people who have no degree, but have spent their time picking up as many diverse skills as possible, and would easily be a much better employee than anyone else with equivalent experience, degree or no.

It's a shame that some grades (particularly in Government or multinational companies) are simply inaccessible to those who didn't party and come in late for four years, even if they're more than capable of doing their boss's boss's job.

What Lemo said is very good advice. On top of that, I would make it clear to them that even if they can't make you Manager, you'd be eager to take on some form of supervisory role, in order to build up this experience. As Lemo said, don't come off with an "I deserve to be higher than these peons" attitude.

AngryBadger

seamus wrote:

Experience allows you the confidence to deal with and adapt to situations.

Dam you Seamus! I was just about to hi-jack this thread and re-route it into blaming the women!!! ah well

Megatron

Seamus i do agree withs ome of what you say, but i have to disagree with the pigeonholed part.

Again i work in I.T , and i've managed and ran projects ranging from Simply Desktop support issues to server migrations.

I've got a proven track record no just in this job but in any other job i've done.

In all honestly i belive the company is just messing me about and doing there best to have someone over qualified in this postion than have to move me up to something where i would have a learning curve ( however short it will be) and fill my postion with the next best thing to I can't believe it's not megatron .

in all honesty i know i'll need the peice of paper if i inted to move up or even move on , so i'll use the company's Education program get it , then if i don't move up in the next 2 months from getting it , i'm outa here.

seamus

Megatron wrote:

Seamus i do agree withs ome of what you say, but i have to disagree with the pigeonholed part.

Well, I did add myself a disclaimer
If someone is just chugging away at I.T. to earn a living, they'll pigeonhole themselves. The same is true with any industry. But if someone loves the job and has a passion for the area in which they work, then they're going to be at the top of the stack, with or without the degree.

Third_Echelon

Its really about a mix of the two... education and experience.

Once you leave college with that degree you are back at the foot of the ladder. If you think you should be entitled to a management job at this staget then you are kidding yourself.

The degree is the 'foot in the door' to any company/industry. After that you have to gain the experience that will one day get you that management job if you want it.

In my own case I have found that my degree has helped a lot in my job. I'm now 2 and a half years with my company, which I joined straight out of college and its only at this stage that I am getting team lead positions and a lot more responsibility. Its only since I have taken on this position that I can see the mix of the experience that I have and my degree gelling together.

You just have to be patient. Thats the key.

Megatron

Third_Echelon wrote:

You just have to be patient. Thats the key.

Yeah but how long will that take

Siogfinsceal

just to clarify, I didnt just finish college and expect to walk iinto management. Finished college, worked in 2 other companies for a year then spent 3 years building up experience in this co. Rated highly on education and experience just not on 'management experience' but what is wierd is that they wont give u management experience!

MorningStar

IT companies are notorius for not promoting internally. But 3 years working and 2 other jobs doesn't strike me as the path to management. If they don't think you have "management experience" after knowing you 3 years that means they don't think you could do the job. They are being polite more so than anything else I would suggest moving or at least try to get them to give you a goal to aim for to get experience or to boalster their view of you.

Tha Gopher

Siogfinsceal wrote:

I would honestly tell any kid leaving school only got to college for 2 years unless you actually need a degree (ie doctor, lawyer etc) cos it doesnt seem to matter when you start working - experience goes above education

*Shows my oul one this post*

I work my current job for 11 an hour with a pile of graduates. An Arts degree in UCD isnt what gets you a job. Having on your C.V that you held down 2 or 3 jobs at the same time for years is more impressive imo (thinking about taking on a third job right now, if i can get full time at my 11 per hour job, keep my current weekend job and get a third job for maybe 3 evenings per week im lookin at close on 700 a week, and Im 19 College me bollix, its the two jobbers and the future plumbers/electricians who are raking it in.

Kojak

Siogfinsceal wrote:

Spent 4 years of my life in college. Rock hard degree - subjects ranged from all of the software design topics (programming, java, algorithms etc) and business topics (sales, management, law, company strucure, marketing etc.)
applied for a job internally few months ago- got turned down due to 'lack of management experience'. person who got the job has been a manager for 2 years but does not have any qualification in it. They are great and well deserve it Im just gettin frustrated having spent 4 years of my life. Ive been a manager in a different industry before but not in an office. Frustrating as if I do not have the experience and my education doesnt count how do I get there? I would honestly tell any kid leaving school only got to college for 2 years unless you actually need a degree (ie doctor, lawyer etc) cos it doesnt seem to matter when you start working - experience goes above education

So people I know have been saying the same thing - experience seems to be more desirable than education.

Why then does industry says it wants graduates, surley an experienced worker is better.

jizzum

In work with a guy who has a first class masters in computer science..and another who did his ecdl 7 years ago..similar amount of time spent at computers if you like....no need to tell you is more competent at their job.there is no substitute for experience...Degrees are not wasted but you cant teach problem solving and aptitude in college...every single company has a different structure and bespoke systems etc which take time to learn...ability to learn quickly is the best asset you can bring to IT
As far as management goes companies have different criteria which needs to be met..I wouldn't get to disheartened. Someone here gave the good advice to speak to your manager about what their decision was based on. Excellent advice.

Aporia

well the course i'm considering on doing in college has 6 months of paid work placement so it won't be four years of a waste after all.
i guess you need both for a decent chance out there

Third_Echelon

Siogfinsceal wrote:

just to clarify, I didnt just finish college and expect to walk iinto management. Finished college, worked in 2 other companies for a year then spent 3 years building up experience in this co. Rated highly on education and experience just not on 'management experience' but what is wierd is that they wont give u management experience!

Did you put your hand up and ask to take on projects? No matter how small a project or task may seem, if you look like you are willing to take on something and be in charge of it, that shows that you have leadership qualities. These are the type of things that are looked at when it comes to making decisions on who is best for a management type job.

Start small as in, offer to give a training course to newbies on a topic you are knowledgable in.... Offer ideas on how to improve things in your workflows that bug the hell out of you... Arrange a company day out to the races or something like that... It all counts.

pontovic

I did computer applications in DCU, which is a four year course. Alot of the stuff in it didn't seemingly benefit me at all. When will I ever use Prolog, for instance, or when will I ever use the Maths that I learned in first year ? In my opinion I learned alot more and enjoyed much more my work experience in third year than any of the subjects I had to study. College was a pain in the arse, but you still need a degree to get any decent job most of the time.

The way I see it, a company will look upon you more favourably if you have been able to stick 4 years of a tough degree course and come out on the other side having succeeded.

For my third year intra work placement, I worked in France for 6 months for Alcatel. They hired me because I had experience working with computers and developing websites. I learned about various topics of web development and did a few nixers. That got me 6 months experience. Im working for AOL now, and I only got this job because of my previous experience.