Apostasy - we have the same problem in Poland!

proch

Hello everybody,

If you think that only Irish people have troubles with leaving the RC church - you are wrong! Try to do it in Poland, the country of more than 34 million of catholics (90% of population) and you will face the same problems as in Ireland. Questions, letters to church authorities without answers, bizzare obstacles and so on.
Because of that problems we've created a website www.apostazja.info in order to help people that decided to apostatize. Soon we'll prepare an English section on it (feel welcomed already now!), but now we are searching for similar webpages in the world internet. Can you supply me with some links, please? It's good to exchange experience, isn't it?

Regards

robert

Ag marbh

Hey,


Great idea for the site and an English version would be great

Dades

Welcome Robert!

Just as a matter of interest, are there practical implications to officially leaving the church in Poland? What I mean is, do you do it for yourself only - or does it change your legal status in any way?

I'm still on the church books as a catholic, but have no inclination to be "officially" recognised as an apostate. I will be happy to state my (lack of) belief in the next census.

Zombrex

proch wrote:

Hello everybody,

If you think that only Irish people have troubles with leaving the RC church - you are wrong!

Maybe a dumb question, but why do you need to offically leave the Roman Catholic church (ie Apostasy). Excuse my ignorance on the subject, I don't know much about the inner workings of the RC

[edit]LOL, Atheist you beat me too it... damn you!!:)[/edit]

Dades

Wicknight wrote:

[edit]LOL, Atheist you beat me too it... damn you!!:)[/edit]

Yossie

As far as i know, there are a number of ways to get automatically ex-communicated from the RC church. One of these is to strike the pontiff.

I'm in the process of getting him to make himself available in the centre of St. Peters from 12.00 to 2.00 on Saturday afternoons.:D

Anybody care to join me?;)

robindch

> we are searching for similar webpages in the world internet. Can you
> supply me with some links, please?

There are a few out there but it's been quiet a while since I've seen any ones like yours, and my polish ain't good enough to enjoy it. There are plenty of atheistic/agnostic webpages out there, though:

http://ffrf.org/
http://www.infidels.org/
http://www.iidb.org/vbb/index.php
http://www.positiveatheism.org/
http://www.valleyskeptic.com/

...which are worth a look at, though the last guy really does need to relax more.

> robert

Hmmm... another robert

- ro{bin|bert}

robindch

> As far as i know, there are a number of ways to get automatically
> ex-communicated from the RC church. One of these is to strike the pontiff.

Wish I'd known that last year. I was in Rome with another catholic apostate and on the last day we drove slowly up through the big piazza in the Vatican with the two of us doing the papal wave, bowing graciously to everybody. While it didn't get us excommunicated (sigh), I do wish I'd been paying more attention to the road signs, as we ended up on a long buslane-only street with a dour-looking cop at the far end who -- praise be to Allah -- grinned and waved us on.

lostexpectation

what would happen if you got married by the church and then wanted to actively leave it ?

Scofflaw

Automatic excommunication offences (you are obliged to observe the excommunication yourself - you're barred from receiving the sacraments and participating in public worship):

Wikipedia wrote:

1. Apostasy,
2. Heresy,
3. Schism,
4. Desecration of the Eucharist,
5. Physical force against the Pope,
6. Attempted sacramental absolution of a partner in adultery,
7. Ordination of a bishop without a Papal mandate (e.g. all bishops in the government-run Chinese Patriotic Church),
8. For non-electors present in the conclave, revelation of the details of the conclave,
9. Simoniacal provision of the Papal office,
10. Violation of the sacramental seal of confession by a priest or bishop, and
11. Procurement of a completed abortion.

There's also automatic interdict (effectively same as excommunication if you're a layperson):

Wikipedia wrote:

12 Physical violence against a bishop
13 Attempting to preside over or concelebrate in Mass while being a deacon or lay person
14 Hearing and/or attempting to absolve confessions while being a deacon or lay person
15 Falsely accusing a priest of soliciting adultery while in confession
16 Attempting to marry while having a perpetual vow of chastity

Currently I'm on 1, 4, 11, and 14. I was hoping to get a chance to take a swing at my wife's uncle's brother (a bishop), but he died.

regards,
Scofflaw

Scofflaw

lostexpectation wrote:

what would happen if you got married by the church and then wanted to actively leave it ?

Your civil union would remain valid. The Church union, these days, is pro forma.

regards,
Scofflaw

szymon_goldman

Wicknight wrote:

Maybe a dumb question, but why do you need to offically leave the Roman Catholic church (ie Apostasy). Excuse my ignorance on the subject, I don't know much about the inner workings of the RC

Welcome from catholic, reactionary and homophobic Poland,

Leaving RC church is the best way of weakening this institution which has an enormous impact on the whole Polish political and social life. We tend to be removed from official statistics stating that more than 90% of Poles are catholics.WE DO NOT WANT to be counted among their members anymore. Only formal apostasy ensures being signed out from the statistics. That's why we fight to apostatize formally.

lostexpectation

Scofflaw wrote:

Automatic excommunication offences (you are obliged to observe the excommunication yourself - you're barred from receiving the sacraments and participating in public worship):


Currently I'm on 1, 4, 11, and 14. I was hoping to get a chance to take a swing at my wife's uncle's brother (a bishop), but he died.


Number 11 ?? :eek:

So if you bash a bishop then you're out. I did that last night. :v: :v:

Yossie

szymon_goldman wrote:

Welcome from catholic, reactionary and homophobic Poland,

Leaving RC church is the best way of weakening this institution which has an enormous impact on the whole Polish political and social life. We tend to be removed from official statistics stating that more than 90% of Poles are catholics.WE DO NOT WANT to be counted among their members anymore. Only formal apostasy ensures being signed out from the statistics. That's why we fight to apostatize formally.

More power to yah!:)

I can understand the frustration in being counted amoung a group that you despise, whether that is the RC church or in support of "the war".

In Ireland formal apostasy is not popular or even that well known, because our society out stripped the church at such a fast rate that it never became an issue. All we really have left is the dried skeletal remains of the church's odds and ends. Hopefully that will be the case in Poland too.

Funnily enough the RC church here is getting some new life from young catholic Polish people coming to Ireland to work;) (and worship:rolleyes: )

Yossie

Scofflaw wrote:

Automatic excommunication offences (you are obliged to observe the excommunication yourself - you're barred from receiving the sacraments and participating in public worship):........

You make me wish "Jim'll fixit" was still about

Asiaprod

lostexpectation wrote:

Scofflaw wrote:

Currently I'm on 1, 4, 11, and 14. I was hoping to get a chance to take a swing at my wife's uncle's brother (a bishop), but he died.


Number 11 ?? :eek:

Dare I ask about no 4!!!:eek:

Yossie

Ye all make me wish I was ordering these like a chinese menu:)

"Em...I'll have..... a no.1.....4..... 14, and eh....17 and a side orders of 5 and 12"

Scofflaw

Asiaprod wrote:

lostexpectation wrote:

Dare I ask about no 4!!!:eek:

I'll quote George Bush: "when I was young and foolish, I was young, and foolish".

Otherwise, I plead the 5th, or any other relevant legislation.

I think it has to be a two-eyed bishop...


regards,
Scofflaw

Scofflaw

By the by, how many here put themselves down as atheists on the last census? There were only 500 atheists recorded, as far as I remember.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Asiaprod

Scofflaw wrote:

I'll quote George Bush: "when I was young and foolish, I was young, and foolish". Otherwise, I plead the 5th, or any other relevant legislation.

Well, if he can get away with it, why not you. I think I scored a plus on number 13

Dades

Scofflaw wrote:

By the by, how many here put themselves down as atheists on the last census? There were only 500 atheists recorded, as far as I remember.

cordially,
Scofflaw

In case you missed it...

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2054859254&highlight=statistics

This years census should paint a different picture.

Alun

Scofflaw wrote:

By the by, how many here put themselves down as atheists on the last census? There were only 500 atheists recorded, as far as I remember.

I was one of those! And all that time, I didn't realize I was the member of such an elite club

One question to our Polish friend ... do you pay Church Tax in Poland like they do in Germany? That'd be a pretty good reason to apostatize formally rather than just quitely drifting away from the church, wouldn't it?

EDIT: just read the thread quote above, and maybe I just ticked 'None'.

proch

Hi,

Formal apostasy does not change my legal status.

It does not have an impact on your marriage - since when you get marry in the church, info about it is automatically sent to governmental office.

We do not pay any church taxes.

I have also fullfiled many points from the "excommunication list" - but the question is wheter the church knows about it? And we know that they don't want to know. They pretend like they don't understand what we want from them. It took me half a year to get an answer about the procedure of apostasy. Another few months it took to apostatize and get a confirmation on paper. I tell you it is a hard struggle.

You need to bring two witnesses with you to the priest and apostatize there. Then the church of your baptism is informed and information about apostasy is recorded in the "Book of Batpisms". Those are the basics

robert

Stephen

Scofflaw wrote:

By the by, how many here put themselves down as atheists on the last census? There were only 500 atheists recorded, as far as I remember.

cordially,
Scofflaw

My ould ma filled out the census form in our house, and of course she put me down as a roman catholic. I won't be letting the same thing happen this year.

Of the list, i guess I am just a 1. Is no.4 something like taking a dump on a bible or something?

EcoGirl

Joining this thread late.

According to Jesus in the bible the only unforgiveable sin is blaspheming the Holy [sic] Spirit. Funny that the Catholics don't make that a throwing-out offense.

I'd love to formally leave too.

Galvasean

Dades wrote: »

This years census should paint a different picture.

When's it due?
have to be sure Mammy doesn't misrepresent me again.

Tyler MacDurden

Galvasean wrote: »

When's it due?
have to be sure Mammy doesn't misrepresent me again.

I think Dades' post was from 2006. Does necrothreading feature on the excommunication list?

Somewhat off-topic: If any of our Polish brethren are still about, I wonder if they might enlighten me about a particularly powerful churchman (a bishop I think) back home? My Polish mate began to tell me this story but we got side-tracked. Apparently this guy has the ear of government ministers and is a property tycoon in his own right. Influential enough to direct policy decisions. Sounded rather sinister.

robindch

Tyler MacDurden wrote: »

Apparently this guy has the ear of government ministers and is a property tycoon in his own right. Influential enough to direct policy decisions. Sounded rather sinister.

Not sure if sinister is the right word. Weird might be closer. When Ratzinger hit Poland in 2006, the national telly station cancelled all ads for condoms (understandably), underwear (huh?) and obviously tampons (women are unclean) lest the papal dignity be irretrievably dented:

http://www.spiegel.de/international/0,1518,418054,00.html

I've no idea who promulgated this piece of divine silliness.

Phototoxin

Currently I'm on 1, 4, 11, and 14. I was hoping to get a chance to take a swing at my wife's uncle's brother (a bishop), but he died.

Personally I dont think 11 is one to brag about..

But in poland anyway I hear there's a lot of corruption between the church and business men. 'donating' things to churches and splitting the taxback or some such

Zillah

Phototoxin wrote: »

Personally I dont think 11 is one to brag about..

Yes let's turn this into an abortion argument, great idea. Good luck on the A&A forum by the way.

PDN

szymon_goldman wrote: »

Welcome from catholic, reactionary and homophobic Poland,

You must miss the good old days (pre-1989) when the atheists ran the country. The Catholics knew their place back then, didn't they? Jerzy Popiełuszko and all that.

Galvasean

robindch wrote: »

Not sure if sinister is the right word. Weird might be closer. When Ratzinger hit Poland in 2006, the national telly station cancelled all ads for condoms (understandably), underwear (huh?)

But of course, Underpants are like one great big reusable condom.

Tyler MacDurden

Galvasean wrote: »

But of course, Underpants are like one great big reusable condom.

"It's OK baby, I'm wearing boxers."

DapperGent

Scofflaw don't post here anymore.

MrPudding

Phototoxin wrote: »

Personally I dont think 11 is one to brag about..

I don't think he was bragging, simply stating a fact.

MrP

CerebralCortex

PDN wrote: »

You must miss the good old days (pre-1989) when the atheists ran the country. The Catholics knew their place back then, didn't they? Jerzy Popiełuszko and all that.

I think you'll find it was communists who ran the country pre-1989.

Dades

PDN wrote: »

You must miss the good old days (pre-1989) when the atheists ran the country. The Catholics knew their place back then, didn't they? Jerzy Popiełuszko and all that.

"Atheist" regimes. Yawn.

DapperGent wrote: »

Scofflaw don't post here anymore.

He came to the A&A beers, though! You'll find him in the politics forum these days.

Goduznt Xzst

PDN wrote: »

You must miss the good old days (pre-1989) when the atheists ran the country. The Catholics knew their place back then, didn't they? Jerzy Popiełuszko and all that.

I think you will find that they where mostly Azeusists. As you yourself don't believe in Zeus PDN it can be concluded that you MUST share the same motives and traits as Communists also :eek:

robindch

Goduznt Xzst wrote: »

I think you will find that they where mostly Azeusists. As you yourself don't believe in Zeus PDN it can be concluded that you MUST share the same motives and traits as Communists also :eek:

It's worse than that -- a lot of the leaders were over 45 too, so that obviously causes people to share evil motives too.

And don't get me started on comparative mustachology. Ever noticed that Hitler, Stalin and Saddam Hussein all had mustaches? There's something happening there, I tell ya!

Zombrex

PDN wrote: »

You must miss the good old days (pre-1989) when the atheists ran the country. The Catholics knew their place back then, didn't they? Jerzy Popiełuszko and all that.

Oh no you didn't!

Oh yes he did!

He's behind you!

Phototoxin

Yes athiests running countries, that means that they must be nazis and communists. COMMUNAZIS FTW!!

I think a secular country which allows religion (or lack thereof) as a right is the best thing. Thankfully we live in a country like this. However much of the religous 'power' comes from society at large which cannot be changed.

Yes let's turn this into an abortion argument, great idea. Good luck on the A&A forum by the way.

I don't understand? A&A forum? Just because I'm agnostic doesn't mean I can't be pro-life.

Goduznt Xzst

Phototoxin wrote: »

I don't understand? A&A forum? Just because I'm agnostic doesn't mean I can't be pro-life.

No but in general Atheists have a "live and let live" mentality, and abortion is a gray enough subject that most feel it should be left up to the individual to decide. Pro-lifers tend to want this freedom and facility removed.

Can I ask though, being pro-life, if abortion was made illegal and a woman was found to of had an illegal abortion what punishment should she receive?

Rev Hellfire

I think zillah is more referring to the trend of abortion threads going into a infinite loop of its a person, potential person, a clump of cells ad nauseum

WooPeeA

proch wrote: »

Hello everybody,

If you think that only Irish people have troubles with leaving the RC church - you are wrong! Try to do it in Poland, the country of more than 34 million of catholics (90% of population) and you will face the same problems as in Ireland. Questions, letters to church authorities without answers, bizzare obstacles and so on.
Because of that problems we've created a website www.apostazja.info in order to help people that decided to apostatize. Soon we'll prepare an English section on it (feel welcomed already now!), but now we are searching for similar webpages in the world internet. Can you supply me with some links, please? It's good to exchange experience, isn't it?

Regards

robert

Hello my Polish brother!

The problem in my opinion is that every statistic declares that 90% of Poles are catholics. It's not quite true.. Most of the people I know there are atheists or agnostics, but when it comes to statistics they always declare themselves as catholics, which I witnessed twice. Good evidence to support my statement is the fact that even though 90% declares themselves catholics, only 80% say they believe in God (source: eurobarometer).

Statistics also show that average Pole trust television and radio more than they trust church. IMO they are not good catholics after all.

Same conclusions come when you look at the law in the country: in vitro founded by the state, constitution provides without any exception, separation of church and state, etc.

Maybe I think like that because I grew up in no religious family and never had much religious friends, but it's much worst in Ireland.

---

The website is great! It provides lots of useful information for those who want to be excluded from the Catholic empire and be free again. Have you think about English translation?

Fanny Cradock

WooPeeA wrote: »

Hello my Polish brother!

Just an FYI (ugh, business speak ) - the OP hasn't been active since the start of 2006. Maybe he entered the priesthood!

WooPeeA

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

Just an FYI (ugh, business speak ) - the OP hasn't been active since the start of 2006. Maybe he entered the priesthood!

Haven't seen the date.