Enging size & tax

fjon

This topic was touched upon in this thread.

colm_mcm wrote:

2) Due to tax implications, Irish people will mostly buy the smallest engine size possible. whereas in the UK 1.8 Astras are quite common.

It's a pity really. You don't see the same diversity you would in the UK. Either someone gets a 1.1 small car or they go for a 1.8 saloon.
How many small 1.9 hatchbacks do you see?
Is it really for tax reasons though, or is there also something else? Maybe people feel that if they're going to get a high powered hatch they may as well go for a bigger car.

It's not all that bad though. In Japan they also have high taxes for cars based on engine size. Most of the major manufacturers there have started to produce 500cc "cars", and they are really taking off. There is a huge amount of these tin cans on the roads there - they really look hideous.

John R

Probably insurance as much as tax, VRT doesn't help either.

Paying the tax on a 2 litre every year is not fun but on balance the joy of having a decent engine when needed makes up for it IMO, not sure it would be worth a €2000 insurance hike though.

Alun

Yes, it's a bit annoying alright. In fact, in some instances even if the manufacturer actually produces a wide range of combinations of car type / engine size / trim level, in many cases they're not imported into Ireland due to lack of demand or some such other lame excuse.

Now personally, I like to drive a relatively powerful car, nothing too OTT, but something with sufficient power to overtake safely and also not to be too over-stressed on long journeys. On the other hand, I do a lot of driving on country roads, and don't want anything too big and burdensome either.

Big Nelly

Im on a 1.9Tdi and paying over 500, don't mind paying to have the comfort of a bigger engine/bigger car

layke

People should* pay a flat rate of tax regardless of your engine size as it makes FA difference.

But for the sake of squeezing more money from motorists they do it that way.

If the gov had it their way we'd all be driving a 1.0L Yaris.

Bluehair

It's a real shame in many ways mind you i just bought a '00 2.5 litre 323i for a song largely because very few people are prepared to tax/insure the thing.

Can't say i agree with bigger engine=bigger tax though, surely it'd be much fairer to all if it was emisions based like in the UK?

Tipsy Mac

The road tax system in place in this country makes no sense at all, it doesn't account for actual pollution from a vehicle nor does it account for actual road use. Ie someone could be driving 40,000 miles in a clapped out 15 year old Nissan Micra that has a jetstream of toxins coming out of it and be paying his €150 a year road tax, someone else in a 2006 BMW 325 could be paying €600 and doing 5,000 miles a year with almost crystal clear air (exageration I know) coming out of the exhaust.

Litcagral

My tax costs almost twice what my insurance costs. Tax= €1109

RobAMerc

Why doesn't the government implement a fuel based tax system.

ie Put (Even more) tax on fuel and abolish the road tax system now in place.

Therefore the more fuel you use, the more your car burns ie more polution or the more milage your doing, therefore the more road tax you pay.

I can actually answer this:

The governments environmental excuse for road tax is bullsh*t as is there lip service to road safety. This way they get a good skelp out of everybodies wages wheter you use the car or not.

Big Nelly

RobAMerc wrote:

Why doesn't the government implement a fuel based tax system.

ie Put (Even more) tax on fuel and abolish the road tax system now in place.

Therefore the more fuel you use, the more your car burns ie more polution or the more milage your doing, therefore the more road tax you pay.

I can actually answer this:

The governments environmental excuse for road tax is bullsh*t as is there lip service to road safety. This way they get a good skelp out of everybodies wages wheter you use the car or not.

They are already taxing fuel

How many more ways can they gouge the motorist I wonder.

LFCFan

ronoc wrote:

How many more ways can they gouge the motorist I wonder.

I dunno but if there's a way, the Irish government will find it.

unkel

Tipsy Mac wrote:

The road tax system in place in this country makes no sense at all, it doesn't account for actual pollution from a vehicle nor does it account for actual road use. Ie someone could be driving 40,000 miles in a clapped out 15 year old Nissan Micra that has a jetstream of toxins coming out of it and be paying his €150 a year road tax, someone else in a 2006 BMW 325 could be paying €600 and doing 5,000 miles a year with almost crystal clear air (exageration I know) coming out of the exhaust.

Spot on. It is an unfair system and I'm saying that out of principal, not because I happen to fall in the latter category, in fact I do 7,000 miles in a '96 BMW 735 (modern engine) with a tax bill of €1343

RobAMerc wrote:

Why doesn't the government implement a fuel based tax system

Indeed, the polluter should pay. There is still plenty of scope for increasing the fuel price by say €0.25 per liter

If the government was half interested in the environment, they could do a lot more stuff, like dramatically reducing VRT on environmentally friendly new cars and abolishing all excise duties on bio-diesel and ethanol

ambro25

Bluehair wrote:

Can't say i agree with bigger engine=bigger tax though, surely it'd be much fairer to all if it was emisions based like in the UK?

The IE tax system reminds me more of the FR road tax system that was in place for decades, wherein they'd invented 'tax horspowers' (that's why the 2CV was called the 2CV: because it was 2 'tax horspowers', not because the engine was 2HP. Same with the 60s' Renault "4 chevaux", etc.).

FR road tax has now been abolished for a few years, but behaviour in car purchases was very similar while it was still in force (people buying more 'small cars', and diesels since these were getting rated with less 'tax horspowers' even though engine might have had same or more BHP than petrol equivalent).

UK is only based on emissions for 'new' cars (can't remember cut-off date/point) - for years (and still for 'older' cars), it's been a flat rate: £80-odd for 6 months or £130-odd for the year, whether you drive an '81 mini or an '04 S320.

What they could do in IE, short of fuel-based (which I would support as fair and probably generating just as much cash if not more, plus encouraging people more to use public or alternative transports), is tax based on NCT-measure emissions. Can't get more accurate 'emissions-based' than that!

seamus

I would say insurance is the main reason why 1.8+ or 2.x hatchbacks are so rare. While you're young, the smaller the car, the cheaper the insurance. When you get to a point where insurance on a powerful hatchback becomes affordable, you're starting into "getting married and having kids" territory, where a saloon is arguably a better choice.

There's also the Jones's factor. If your mate with 3 kids has a 2.0l saloon, your hatchback could be 2.5l, but it still looks smaller and cheaper. Us Irish have a ridiculous need to make people believe we are more successful than our peers.

cujimmy

ambro25 wrote:

UK is only based on emissions for 'new' cars (can't remember cut-off date/point) - for years (and still for 'older' cars), it's been a flat rate: £80-odd for 6 months or £130-odd for the year, whether you drive an '81 mini or an '04 S320.

Car tax over here as follows

Cars not over 1549cc £110 pa
cars over 1549cc £170pa

cars registered on or after 1 March 2001 based on CO2 emissions and fuel type. CO2 emmissions range A to F and the tax rates are £65, £75, £110, £125,£150 and £165 pa. Disel engines add £10, gas deduct £10

ambro25

cujimmy wrote:

Car tax over here as follows

Cars not over 1549cc £110 pa
cars over 1549cc £170pa

cars registered on or after 1 March 2001 based on CO2 emissions and fuel type. CO2 emmissions range A to F and the tax rates are £65, £75, £110, £125,£150 and £165 pa. Disel engines add £10, gas deduct £10

Scotland same as UK? (pardon my ignorance of all things Scottish - but hey! I ain't no Brit either! )

Alun

ambro25 wrote:

Scotland same as UK? (pardon my ignorance of all things Scottish - but hey! I ain't no Brit either! )

Scotland was part of the UK, the last time I looked They do have a different legal and education system to the rest of the UK, but most other things are the same.

fjon

ambro25 wrote:

Scotland same as UK? (pardon my ignorance of all things Scottish - but hey! I ain't no Brit either! )

Scotland is part of the UK, as are England, Wales and Northern Ireland...

ambro25

I know that, but since the devolution and the fact that they can raise & administer their own taxes, I was wondering whether road tax in Scotland is the same as in Britain, or England or whatever-the- you want to call the rest of the Island :rolleyes:

Alun

ambro25 wrote:

I know that, but since the devolution and the fact that they can raise & administer their own taxes, I was wondering whether road tax in Scotland is the same as in Britain, or England or whatever-the- you want to call the rest of the Island :rolleyes:

They do have some powers in regard to taxation, yes, but haven't used them yet AFAIK.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scottish_Parliament

colm_mcm

fjon wrote:

It's not all that bad though. In Japan they also have high taxes for cars based on engine size. Most of the major manufacturers there have started to produce 500cc "cars", and they are really taking off. [/url]

These small cars you refer to are in the Japanese "K" or "Kei" class
have strict regulations - like the engine can't be bigger than 660 cc, also the size is regulated. Car can't be wider than 1475mm and longer than 3400mm, height, in the other hand, is not restircted. That's why you saw cars like the Suzuki Wagon R.

This system is ideal for a country like Japan, with huge urban traffic and pollution issues. Also the fact that Japanese people replace their cars so regularly means that the sucess of these schemes can be realised very quickly.

Head The Wall

Japanese have some of the strictest emission regulations in the world, hence the small engine sizes, but they know how to make them efficient and powerful.

colm_mcm

something the Americans should look at........

fjon

Head The Wall wrote:

Japanese have some of the strictest emission regulations in the world, hence the small engine sizes, but they know how to make them efficient and powerful.

Efficient - yes, definitely
Powerful - no

colm_mcm

fjon wrote:

Efficient - yes, definitely
Powerful - no

relative to the size of the engine, no one does more powerful engines than the Japanese