I wish I was a girl..

cormie

Just did an online quote and under the exact same criteria and putting myself as female, my quote was about half of what it is for me being a guy:mad: €500 odd compared to about €1,100 for TPFT.

So what classes you as a girl then? Do you need the assets or has anyone ever been known to get away with it by saying they are a girl in a guys body? I might try that!

Is there any discrimination laws they are breaking?

Also, regarding getting a discount by having a spouse on the policy, can I just get a friend and ask if they want to be my spouse? Am I going to be insuring them on my policy which will then allow them to drive my car, or will the spouse need their own car and already have their own policy? How can a 21 year old single chap living at home get around this?

Seth Brundle

cormie wrote:

I wish I was a girl..
it can easily be arranged
http://www.google.ie/search?q=sex+change&start=0&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official

cormie wrote:

Is there any discrimination laws they are breaking?

Quite possibly but they are allowed to do this based on their statistical data.

Eoin

kbannon wrote:

Quite possibly but they are allowed to do this based on their statistical data.

Indeed, but I would wonder how they would get on if they openly charged coloured drivers more even if the statistics backed them.

Cormie, I know I have said this ad naseum on this forum, but €1100 is nothing for a 21 year old fella. Wind the clock back even 6 years ago, and you could at least double that premium.

elexes

eoin_s wrote:

Indeed, but I would wonder how they would get on if they openly charged coloured drivers more even if the statistics backed them.

Cormie, I know I have said this ad naseum on this forum, but €1100 is nothing for a 21 year old fella. Wind the clock back even 6 years ago, and you could at least double that premium.

he is right its fairly low . got what my focus will cost me net year and its 1k with full lisence and 2 yr ncb and im 25 but mines fully comp . theres no difference in price between me and tpft

cormie

Has anyone ever heard of somebody who claimed to be a woman in a mans body to get cheaper insurance? I'll do it if it works:D I think I'll avoid getting the operation for now though. That would probably cost more than the difference I would pay if I remained male;)

I know €1100 isn't that bad (for Irish standards of course). The thing is, I don't have €1100.. I'm not saying I don't have €1100 to be spending on insurance, I actually don't have €1100 at all:o Any way I can reduce the premium I'll do it.

How about the spouse malarky? What are the requirements for thaT?

EDIT: I've also a full license, 2 years NCB, Ignition discount driving a 1.1. I'm always hearing of people my age who know people in insurance companies and get it for €600 or so, and I bet they are still making a nice profit on them.

fjon

Wow - that's low, or else mine is really high!
I pay the same, am 27 and have 3 years NCD. Granted I drive a 1.4 and don't have an Ignition course.

maidhc

cormie wrote:

Has anyone ever heard of somebody who claimed to be a woman in a mans body to get cheaper insurance? I'll do it if it works:D

http://www.bailii.org/ie/cases/IEHC/2002/116.html

The judge goes into some detail on how to know the difference!

Henry Ford III

Isn't that (charging more for a male) sexual discrimination?

PaddyFagan

As far as I know - the spouse requirement does require that they have their own car (and possibly that they live at the same address) - some place also require that they drive a car with a lower cc. As ever with insurance companies, you mislead them and have an accident they may decline to pay out.

Paddy

Eoin

cormie wrote:

Has anyone ever heard of somebody who claimed to be a woman in a mans body to get cheaper insurance? I'll do it if it works:D I think I'll avoid getting the operation for now though. That would probably cost more than the difference I would pay if I remained male;)

I know €1100 isn't that bad (for Irish standards of course). The thing is, I don't have €1100.. I'm not saying I don't have €1100 to be spending on insurance, I actually don't have €1100 at all:o Any way I can reduce the premium I'll do it.

How about the spouse malarky? What are the requirements for thaT?

EDIT: I've also a full license, 2 years NCB, Ignition discount driving a 1.1. I'm always hearing of people my age who know people in insurance companies and get it for €600 or so, and I bet they are still making a nice profit on them.

€600 is a pretty good price for people of any demographic, I don't think either of my parents get it that cheap (granted they are driving 1.6 and 2.0 engine cars).

I forget the Latin / legal term, but insurance works on the principle of "utmost good faith". This means that you are obliged to tell the insurance company anything that might be relevant to your policy. Omitting a fact is tantamount to lying to them.

With regards to the spouse thing, I am pretty sure that spouse = wife/husband, not just a partner. But there is absolutely nothing stopping you putting one of your parents down as a named driver. This may reduce your premium, as it increases the chance of a lower risk person driving your car, therefore reducing the risk of an accident.

cormie

maidhc wrote:

http://www.bailii.org/ie/cases/IEHC/2002/116.html

The judge goes into some detail on how to know the difference!

Did you read all that?:eek: did he get away with it? Is it related to insurance?

Ok, so I suppose in terms of Irish standards, €1100 isn't that bad, but if all I have to do is say I'm a woman in a mans body to get it for €500 I'll do it!

Anyone know about the spouse thingy?

Eoin

Henry Ford III wrote:

Isn't that (charging more for a male) sexual discrimination?

As kbannon said, apparently not if it is based on the statistics. Anyway, young males are probably the only demographic which is acceptable to discriminate against.

As I said earlier, it would be interesting to see what would happen if the insurance companies discriminated against people it was not seen as acceptable to do so against - even if the statistics backed them up.

Are you not in the insurance biz yourself? You must know this stuff inside out!

cormie

Hmm. So I could put my mother down on my insurance, even though she doesn't have a licence to even drive a car, let alone a car with a lower CC and it could reduce my premium? I wouldn't be lying saying I was a woman in a mans body, I could just be confused:v:

Eoin

cormie wrote:

Hmm. So I could put my mother down on my insurance, even though she doesn't have a licence to even drive a car, let alone a car with a lower CC and it could reduce my premium? I wouldn't be lying saying I was a woman in a mans body, I could just be confused:v:

She doesn't even drive at all? Then I don't know what the story would be (though I suspect there are a LOT of people in their middle age who never bothered to get a license who drive every day). Certainly no harm in getting a quote for her as a named driver.

Is there anyone else at home you can get put on?

Henry Ford III

eoin_s wrote:

...I forget the Latin / legal term, but insurance works on the principle of "utmost good faith". This means that you are obliged to tell the insurance company anything that might be relevant to your policy. Omitting a fact is tantamount to lying to them.

....But there is absolutely nothing stopping you putting one of your parents down as a named driver.....

Latin term is Uberrima Fides. It assumes you tell them (the insurer) any material fact that would effect the assessment of a risk. Modifications are a dangerous area for example if not disclosed. Mods. include i.c.e. upgrades and aftermarket alloys, which won't increase nor later performance, but will make the car more attractive to a potential thief. If in any doubt always disclose.

There is a potential problem with parent as proposer/insured and young driver as a named driver. For example an Insurer would rightly assess the risk of a 20 year old driving his own say 1.4 litre car, as being greater than that of him being named on his parents policy with the parent the main driver. The question "are you the main driver" is crucial here. It's a material fact. If the
young driver is to be the main driver the truth needs to be told.

Eoin

Henry Ford III wrote:

Latin term is Uberrima Fides. It assumes you tell them (the insurer) any material fact that would effect the assessment of a risk. Modifications are a dangerous area for example if not disclosed. Mods. include i.c.e. upgrades and aftermarket alloys, which won't increase nor later performance, but will make the car more attractive to a potential thief. If in any doubt always disclose.

There is a potential problem with parent as proposer/insured and young driver as a named driver. For example an Insurer would rightly assess the risk of a 20 year old driving his own say 1.4 litre car, as being greater than that of him being named on his parents policy with the parent the main driver. The question "are you the main driver" is crucial here. It's a material fact. If the
young driver is to be the main driver the truth needs to be told.

I am actually talking about the reverse - having the parent as the named driver. Although the child is still the primary driver, the fact that a lower-risk driver is also insured in the car may reduce the overall policy. The fact that the parent may never drive the car is - I feel - irrelevant, and NOT up to you to disclose the insurance company, as they are not the primary driver of the car.

My g/f pays more insurance than me because she is still on a provisional (even though she is older, and drives a smaller car) and her policy was cheaper when she put me on as a named driver.

cormie

Well I want to have it in my own name anyway, get my NCB up to the max, touch wood!

Nope, my mam doesn't drive at all. Could I still put her down as a named driver perhaps?

On a side note, I wonder if you did get a sex change, would they view you as a male or female.

fletch

Henry Ford III wrote:

Isn't that (charging more for a male) sexual discrimination?

I was thinking about that angle too but when you think about it, it's not like they won't provide you with a quote, they are simply charging you an amount based on a number of criteria/statistics

Boggle

all I have to do is say I'm a woman in a mans body to get it for €500 I'll do it!

I'd go for the "I'm a lesbian in a man's body" approach myself...

Eoin

cormie wrote:

Well I want to have it in my own name anyway, get my NCB up to the max, touch wood!

Nope, my mam doesn't drive at all. Could I still put her down as a named driver perhaps?

You're dead right, I was in the same position as you and I briefly thought about just being a named driver but decided to get own policy. From what I remember, my premiums for the first couple of years were:

22yo - 1 litre - TPFT - £2200 - provisional
23yo - 1.1 litre - TPFT - £2800 - provisional, and back down to about 2100 when I got my license

It dropped after that, but mainly because I got a deal through the a group insurance scheme at work.

If your mum has no driving experience, or even a provisional then I don't know if you will get any reduction, but for the price of a phone call I would find out. Basically, anyone who lives at the same address who is in a lower risk category of drivers may help you reduce your premium.

Remember, a personal loan of €1100 over a year will cost you about €100 per month (no point getting a loan longer than your insurance term).

cormie wrote:

On a side note, I wonder if you did get a sex change, would they view you as a male or female.

Don't even want to think about that legal minefield!

kluivert

Insurance is to cover the risk of an event happening.

Risk is calculated based on variables such as
Age
Sex
Driving Experience
Type of Car and model
and stats

Theres no grounds for discrimination as no one person is the same.

Its sad to see AXA breaking into the UK and charging lower premiums to the UK 21yr compared to that of 21 irish male. Now there maybe grounds there on the wide variance between two countrys.

And the reply from the insurance companies is that England is a safer country to drive on, when in fact the truth is the UK market is far larger than here in Ireland.

Get a house in Amargh or Down and buy a NI Reg car.

Carb

fletch wrote:

I was thinking about that angle too but when you think about it, it's not like they won't provide you with a quote, they are simply charging you an amount based on a number of criteria/statistics

I doubt if there is a statistic that would justify charging a male twice as much as a female

Eoin

Carb wrote:

I doubt if there is a statistic that would justify charging a male twice as much as a female

It is not based purely on the amount of crashes that young men cause, relative to the amount that young women cause; the average cost of each crash has to be taken into account.

I would not find it hard to believe that young men are a lot more likely to drive faster than their female counterparts, and logic dictates that if they are in a crash, then the higher speed will cause more damage and therefore the cost of the crash is greater.

Henry Ford III

eoin_s wrote:

I am actually talking about the reverse - having the parent as the named driver. Although the child is still the primary driver, the fact that a lower-risk driver is also insured in the car may reduce the overall policy. The fact that the parent may never drive the car is - I feel - irrelevant, and NOT up to you to disclose the insurance company, as they are not the primary driver of the car.

I understand now, and agree btw.

My earlier comment was not aimed at you, but is relevant to a large no. of Irish motorists, who tell blatant lies on motor ins. proposal forms.

Henry Ford III

kluivert wrote:

Insurance is to cover the risk of an event happening.

Risk is calculated based on variables such as
Age
Sex
Driving Experience
Type of Car and model
and stats

Theres no grounds for discrimination as no one person is the same.

Its sad to see AXA breaking into the UK and charging lower premiums to the UK 21yr compared to that of 21 irish male. Now there maybe grounds there on the wide variance between two countrys.

And the reply from the insurance companies is that England is a safer country to drive on, when in fact the truth is the UK market is far larger than here in Ireland.

Get a house in Amargh or Down and buy a NI Reg car.

Lots of variables. My question is though if somebody went onto an online quotation engine, and put their own detials in, i.e. Pat O'Shea (m), and obtained a premium and then changed only the name to Patricia O'Shea (f) and got a lower premium would that be discriminatory?

The thing about living near the border (in the South however) and driving a N.I. car has been covered before. It's illegal, fraudulant, and your insurance would probably be voidable. Your own call however.

Duiske

eoin_s wrote:

though I suspect there are a LOT of people in their middle age who never bothered to get a license who drive every day

And the reverse is also true. My g/f's mother has a full licence which she gets renewed every 10 yrs, despite the fact that she has never even sat behind the wheel, let alone drive ! Something to do with the gov handing out full licences years ago to reduce backlog for driving test.

Seth Brundle

Henry Ford III wrote:

Lots of variables. My question is though if somebody went onto an online quotation engine, and put their own detials in, i.e. Pat O'Shea (m), and obtained a premium and then changed only the name to Patricia O'Shea (f) and got a lower premium would that be discriminatory?

If you are given a quote it is based on all variables submitted. IIRC men (esp. young men) tend to have less claims than women but their claims tend to be much higher. For this reason men are more expensive to cover.
It is not discriminatory because it is legal (leaving out ethics!) as the decision is supposedly based on valid data.