Folding Aces Preflop?

Mark_T_147

(AGAIN)...I think this was discussed before but:

So. What do you think? Is there ever a conceivable situation where folding your pocket rockets preflop would be appropriate?

I ask because an interesting situation presented itself tonight while I was playin a SNG on stars:

It's middle-late stages and I'm currently the short-stack, sitting in 5th chip-position out of 5 players remaining. I get rockets in the BB, but by the time it gets around to me 3 players are all in!!! They've all got plenty of rounds left, and all of whom have me covered. There's a but. They are almost EXACTLY equal in chips between them. UTG had gone all-in, was reraised by the slightly bigger stack and this reraise was called by the button.

Now. Im getting 3-1 on my money, and I think I'm just over 50% to win the hand against three other players (right?). This should be an easy call because we know after all this is what long term profitable play is all about; getting it in when you've got the best of it.

However, look at the situation that had just presented itself:
- It's now more than possible that I can fold my way into the money (as one of the three leaders takes the other two out) when I didn't reasonably have a hope in hell of doing so before.
- Alternatively I could take my slightly-better-than-even chance and gamble, looking to quadruple up. This quadruple up would still leave me the shortstack though.

As it happened, I folded. :eek: - You probably think I'm crazy, or maybe you buy in to my thinking. In reflection, perhaps I got a little obsessed with my "clever" analysis of the opportunity and went with the blatantly wrong option out of stubbornness. My reasoning was that regardless of whether my bullets held up or not, the winner of the side-pot was gonna be so over-stacked that I could only reasonably play for second from there. It boiled down to whether I wanted to gamble my tournament on a 50-50 or almost definitely safely settle for third.

UTG showed KQs. UTG+1 showed JJ. Button showed AQs. The flop came J-Q-4 rainbow, Turn 7, River K! (Actually looks like a typical 'stars hand, intended to be played out post-flop by the evil money-grubbing rake-hungry secret society poker elders. This isn't a thread for my conspiracy theories though) So I've avoided two bigger hands, and I smugly slide into the money, thinkin I'm the best thing since sliced bread and actually end up finishing second behind the side pot winner.

Now, I know it's very easy to be blinded by the short-term result of the hand, but it doesn't seem so crazy now does it? I researched the topic on 2+2 forums and opinions seem to be divided 70/30 in favour of never folding bullets preflop.

So, what: a) Would you have done? and b) Do you think of my play?

Here's another analagous/hypothetical scenario to mull over:

VERY first hand of your first WSOP main event. You again look down at bullets in the BB, and a similar course of events take place. 3 players all-in in front of you. So it's basically down to a 50-50 again for your entire tournament involvement.

- Do you want to risk your entire tournament on a slightly better than 50-50 under zero pressure for $40,000 in chips? Or alternatively wait and pick a better spot down the line knowing you're good enough to outplay the majority with plenty of time to do so?

It's an invidious decision to say the least. The arguments for calling include: "You have to take your chances whenever you're even a slight favourite in a tournament like this"; But will those $40,000 give you enough of an advantage on the first day to actually make a difference in the later stages? When has a player who was chip leader in the first day maintained that lead and gone on to win it?

Anyway, enough talky.

RoundTower

I think this question just might have been discussed before, all right. I definitely call in the second hand, I would love to have the 40k chips in that situation. Yes everyone knows the Day 1 chip leader at the WSOP has never reached the final table, but that doesn't mean it's a bad idea to accumulate some chips on the first day.

The first hand might be a fold because you say quadrupling up would still leave you as the short stack, you obviously have a micro stack not just a short stack. Give the exact stack sizes and play around for ages and ages with the chip model calculator Bozzer linked to in the other thread, and you might get an answer. I think this would be an interesting problem, and with a small enough stack it would be a clear fold.

BrokenArrows

I would have folded these aces here too.

If it were a cash game i would say always call but in the late stages of a tourne its a fold.

Vikings

I would call here, I would much rather take the shot at quadrupling up and being in a position to go on and win rather than hope the others take each other out and still being left as the low stack. If you were to win the hand here, you would have a healthy stack and there is still the possibility that the next largest stack would take out the other two with the side pot, leaving you in the same position if you folded except with 4 time the chip count. As you have the best hand preflop I see no reason to fold.

peeko

I like your fold in this situation, it make sense.

WSOP, don't know if I could fold first hand. 40,000 in chips would be a Very nice start.

ChipLdr

In hindsight a good fold but how different if two ppl all in turned over KK KK and other guy AQ.Its happened believe me!!!! Of course i'm being way too particular here but in the situation above a split pot would be a disaster for you.BTW anyone going all in with KQ should be hunted down and emptied of all his bankroll!!!

And in relation to WSOP how much of a twat would you feel if Aces turned out to be the winning hand.You couldnt tell anyone at the table you folded or else kiss goodbye to any respect/chips that might've came your way.I'd have to play them at the WSOP just to say my aces got cracked!!!

roryc

Ive only ever folded aces ONCE preflop. In the Fitz freeroll, there was 5 tickets. I was Chip leader and picket up the rockets. 3 all ins ahead of me which made it an easy fold.

I would have been up against AK, QQ and 10 10. The Queen flopped trips, although the outcome doesn't really matter. It was a flat payout structure, 1st got the same as 5th. There was no need for me to take ANY risk.

In a real tournament I can't really think of any situation where I would fold aces, unless there was more than 4 people in the pot with even stack sizes. Even then it would be a tough fold.

peeko

I could see myself folding AA under the following:

- MTT
- Medium-Low Stack
- Late poistion
- All in before me
- One person away from the money.

Norwich Fan Rob

peeko if u play like that, with just one all in b4 u, u will never win or go deep in a multi.

cardshark202

Is it possible to be anything other than a shortstack at that stage if you fold aces preflop? Its kind of annoying to see people post stuff like that. To be honest I think posting something like that is worse than posting a bad beat thread outside of the sticky.

5starpool

peeko wrote:

I could see myself folding AA under the following:

- MTT
- Medium-Low Stack
- Late poistion
- All in before me
- One person away from the money.

Have you ever played Hold'Em before?

Norwich Fan Rob

peeko just described the perfect time to be dealt AA (sorry for stating the obvious)

roryc

Haha, lads he must be takin the piss

Culchie

Can we ban AA hands, pretty pretty please

gosplan

I'm considering folding them all the time,

I'll be rich then!!!

stupid aces

TacT

call, when they get cracked you have a story, great innit?

kpnuts

Warning: hand history, not really a bad beat, just annoying given circumstances

Wish I'd folded the AA pre-flop last night ... final table of $20 rebuy MTT on Stars! $6,700 for 1st place, I am chip leader with 6 left if the rockets hold up in 3-way coup AA v AK v TT. instead T-hi flop sends me crashing out in 7th for $800 :eek:


PokerStars Game #3972776929: Tournament #19613442, Hold'em No Limit - Level XX (10000/20000) - 2006/02/14 - 17:10:09 (ET)
Table '19613442 32' Seat #5 is the button
Seat 1: killerkp (185574 in chips)
Seat 2: SteamFitter6 (219000 in chips)
Seat 3: scanjet25 (139580 in chips)
Seat 4: ajschrissy (273968 in chips)
Seat 5: sheets (481116 in chips)
Seat 7: rodv (330431 in chips)
Seat 9: jusgivithere (292831 in chips)
killerkp: posts the ante 1000
SteamFitter6: posts the ante 1000
scanjet25: posts the ante 1000
ajschrissy: posts the ante 1000
sheets: posts the ante 1000
rodv: posts the ante 1000
jusgivithere: posts the ante 1000
rodv: posts small blind 10000
jusgivithere: posts big blind 20000
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to killerkp [Ad Ah]
skippy32 [observer] said, "aderol?"
killerkp: raises 40000 to 60000
10E$UN [observer] said, "gg killer"
hennisy [observer] said, "waterloo, ia jusgiv"
SteamFitter6: raises 158000 to 218000 and is all-in
scanjet25: folds
ajschrissy: folds
sheets: folds
rodv: folds
jusgivithere: raises 73831 to 291831 and is all-in
killerkp: calls 124574 and is all-in
*** FLOP *** [7c 2s Tc]
skippy32 [observer] said, "100000000000000000"
Diablo VT [observer] said, "T!"
ajschrissy said, "niiiiiiice"
skippy32 [observer] said, "100000000000000000000"
*** TURN *** [7c 2s Tc] [5s]
skippy32 [observer] said, "aaaaaaaaaa"
SteamFitter6 said, "gg"
*** RIVER *** [7c 2s Tc 5s] [6c]
Diablo VT [observer] said, "sicko"
*** SHOW DOWN ***
jusgivithere: shows [Ts Th] (three of a kind, Tens)
SteamFitter6: shows [Ac Ks] (high card Ace)
10E$UN [observer] said, "c"
jusgivithere collected 66852 from side pot
killerkp: shows [Ad Ah] (a pair of Aces)
ajschrissy said, "WOOOOO"
jusgivithere said, "lol"
jusgivithere collected 570722 from main pot
ajschrissy said, "$$$$$$$$"
JohnnyBax [observer] said, "WOWEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE"
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 637574 Main pot 570722. Side pot 66852. | Rake 0
Board [7c 2s Tc 5s 6c]
Seat 1: killerkp showed [Ad Ah] and lost with a pair of Aces
Seat 2: SteamFitter6 showed [Ac Ks] and lost with high card Ace
Seat 3: scanjet25 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 4: ajschrissy folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 5: sheets (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 7: rodv (small blind) folded before Flop
Seat 9: jusgivithere (big blind) showed [Ts Th] and won (637574) with three of a kind, Tens

kpnuts

By the way, I am not suggesting for a moment that anyone in their right mind should consider folding the AA in the situation above. I think the only situation I would fold em pre-flop is where there is an EXTREMELY flat pay structure, e.g. supersatellite with 40 places into WSOP, 45 players still in and me sitting on treble the average stack and faced with a decision for half my own stack. In the oft-cited "would u fold the AA first hand of WSOP if there are 2+ players all-in before you" chestnut, I am all-in every time, even if four of them are all-in before me! Better than going out overplaying a medium pair 25 hours of poker later!