The U.N and Religon

pretty-in-pink

Ok, I've been wondering about some aspects of religon lately.

Firstly I need to state that I do believe that faith in a higher power is beneficial to the majority of those who believe, (there are wack jobs who kill in the name of God, but hey, people kill for everything and just use money/revenge/sex/god etc as their excuse)

However I'm starting to really wonder about the amount of power given to the higher up positions (rabbi/priest etc), as it seems that they can treat people really badly, shockingly, disturbingly so- and yet it's accepted as being part of "God/ Allahs etc" way. Case points - the magdelen laundries, the Christian brothers, the way Muslims treat their women and children. The pattern seems to be the men get to do what they like, its only recently that rape inside of marriage is recognised by the Irish government, and as for Muslim ones-such as Yemen-I don't know if its recognised yet, and the incredibly unsterile "traditional/proper" way they circumcise their children in Muslim countries - yet again I'll cite Yemen- is horrific.

This has led me to wonder if the U.N should maybe step in and insist that human rights are met, and that things like female circumcision should be outlawed, male circumcision should be performed only in hospital, and that checks are done into the rural villages and towns where most abuses take place. In essence should the UN be brought in to "police" religous leaders and to ensure all practices are fair, and that they don't deny someone their rights or abuse them. ( I know that persuing any religon of your choice is a right too, I'm asking about the right to health-care, sterile living conditions,not being beaten up or raped, not being treated as a slave, allowed to get an education, wear what you like etc as opposed to the right to believe or not believe in something)

** The reason I have chosen Ireland and Yemen is because I can back it up with evidence, if you have more to add work away.

Zombrex

naughty_girl wrote:

Ok, I've been wondering about some aspects of religon lately.

Firstly I need to state that I do believe that faith in a higher power is beneficial to the majority of those who believe, (there are wack jobs who kill in the name of God, but hey, people kill for everything and just use money/revenge/sex/god etc as their excuse)

However I'm starting to really wonder about the amount of power given to the higher up positions (rabbi/priest etc), as it seems that they can treat people really badly, shockingly, disturbingly so- and yet it's accepted as being part of "God/ Allahs etc" way. Case points - the magdelen laundries, the Christian brothers, the way Muslims treat their women and children. The pattern seems to be the men get to do what they like, its only recently that rape inside of marriage is recognised by the Irish government, and as for Muslim ones-such as Yemen-I don't know if its recognised yet, and the incredibly unsterile "traditional/proper" way they circumcise their children in Muslim countries - yet again I'll cite Yemen- is horrific.

This has led me to wonder if the U.N should maybe step in and insist that human rights are met, and that things like female circumcision should be outlawed, male circumcision should be performed only in hospital, and that checks are done into the rural villages and towns where most abuses take place. In essence should the UN be brought in to "police" religous leaders and to ensure all practices are fair, and that they don't deny someone their rights or abuse them. ( I know that persuing any religon of your choice is a right too, I'm asking about the right to health-care, sterile living conditions,not being beaten up or raped, not being treated as a slave, allowed to get an education, wear what you like etc as opposed to the right to believe or not believe in something)

** The reason I have chosen Ireland and Yemen is because I can back it up with evidence, if you have more to add work away.

The UN has a few declarations of human rights that outlaw most of what you are talking about.

The problem is without going to war with half the countries in the world what do you think the UN can do to enforce these human rights?

pretty-in-pink

Wicknight wrote:

The UN has a few declarations of human rights that outlaw most of what you are talking about.

The problem is without going to war with half the countries in the world what do you think the UN can do to enforce these human rights?

I honestly don't know, but I'd like to think that somewhere out there something is being done to help people caught up in the, frankly barbaric, practices of "old" religons. And in some of the newer ones. Is there any way the U.N could just go into a country and check stuff out? Even secretly? Probably not, but crikey, maybe they could bring the governments of offending countries to trial over it? I know that would take a long time (so many countries, so many hide-ups, so little time or human resources).

Is politics too tight to actually look out for people or is it just a case of putting pressure on them? Does amnesty actually make a difference?

metrovelvet

Naughty girl,

I would agree with you if I had any faith in the UN to do anything other than waste money.

But you're right, these are barbaric and cruel practices. The difficulty comes in with "ethnocentricty" which is what the west would be accused of if law were imposed and it would also violate the right to practise one's religion.

But I do agree with you. I think a lot of them are unimaginable.

I think there should be a nurmeberg style trial for the Irish RC Church. Big time and its up to the Irish to demand one.

AngryBadger

In terms of pure logistics, ignoring ethical/social considerations, it would be a compelte nightmare to attempt this. I agree there are religions out there which are completely barbaric, and no amount of browbeating about god/civil liberty is going to change that. However in a lot of the countries where these alues persist, I think you tend to get large areas of extreme wealth, and then huge numbers of what essentially amount to villages all over the country.

The U.N. policing these would be extremely hard to achieve, night impossible to de efficiently, even if every village was tagged, how do you get the locals to co-operate with, what is essentially an invading western force? You would wind up getting local or regional leaders to row in with you, and disseminate your wants to the people at large. But how do you ensure these guys are actualy enforcing what you want? You don't fully understand the system, so you largely have to take them at their word. Forthermore, a lot of the people in power are former guerilla warriors, people who led various insugencies and the like. A lot of these guys wouldn't see it as being in their interests to eliminate these practices, inf act many of them would view it as an incursion by the west, an act of war by any standards.

There are religions/beliefs that are simply disgusting. But the countries/areas where these persist tend to be maelstroms of political, and social corruption, making it impossible to address these issues without bringing other, larger issues to bear.

But yeah, regarding Ireland, the church should NOT be covered by the government to any extent, and they are being given a sickening amount of flexibility by the government. personally it turns my stomach to think these people raped, and abused, and then forced into silence so many peoiple. We really have no idea how many lives they destroyed. FRankly given the choice, I'd string every convicted paedophile up, sell everything asset in the churches possession, and tell the remaining priests to get real jobs.

GusherING

The UN is effectively powerless. The International system is an anarchic one, there are states but no overarching ruler. You might think the UN is one but it isn't. The (self) interests and vetoes of the 5 permanent members puts paid to that. Also, is it right to undermine a states sovereignty with some sort of International police force? Why not use an army? Or even just let Russia or the USA or China invade and see if the religious practices in that country meet their standards? Thats what you are doing, your judging the rest of the world by your standards. They judge us by their standards too, but I'm sure you'd resent Islamic countries like Saudi Arabia where alcohol is illegal telling the Irish not to drink!

AngryBadger

GusherING wrote:

They judge us by their standards too, but I'm sure you'd resent Islamic countries like Saudi Arabia where alcohol is illegal telling the Irish not to drink!

But don't a lot of muslim cultures, (which seems to be what we're talking about), do exactly that? Isn't the whole furor over the danish cartoons an example of it?

tj-music.com

AngryBadger wrote:

But don't a lot of muslim cultures, (which seems to be what we're talking about), do exactly that? Isn't the whole furor over the danish cartoons an example of it?

I can understand that the muslim community is angry about the cartoons but I cannot understand how violence can be a way to express anger.
This is the learning curve the muslims have to realise - This is the 21st century:

WE DO NOT KILL AND HARM OTHERS PHYSICALLY JUST BECAUSE THEY PISS US OFF and I don´t think that Allah/God or any prophet for that matter would welcome violence towards mostly innocent people!

The Corinthian

GusherING wrote:

Thats what you are doing, your judging the rest of the world by your standards. They judge us by their standards too, but I'm sure you'd resent Islamic countries like Saudi Arabia where alcohol is illegal telling the Irish not to drink!

That is really the point, after all different cultures have different definitions of right and wrong, good and evil - indeed, there’s even disagreement within cultures (e.g. abortion in the West). As such, the only way that your argument holds true is if you believe that our (Western) culture is superior to theirs.

I love it when liberals are racist.

pretty-in-pink

I don't care whether they drink or not, eat meat or not, marry their cousins or not. I just think (wish) something could be done about forced marriages, circumcision, domestic violence. Some of these were massive problems here until maybe 40 or 50 years ago. Like it was accepted, if you were married, you were owned. Its violation of peoples bodies and rights. Its sick.

There are many things I disagree with in the east- the way they treeat their animals is also hideous. Male dominated east is pretty barbaric, I know we are pretty bad, but we aren't as bad as them.

We could all do with some lessons in humaity, and dealing with the world around us.

Cruelty makes me so cross.:mad:

The Corinthian

You’re kind of missing the point. That is your (Western) definition of cruelty, not anyone else’s. So if you hate what you consider cruel, fair enough, but don’t delude yourself in thinking that you are doing anything other than imposing your definition of right and wrong on other then. And as an extension of this, what you may think all right they might think sick.

Hobbes

tj-music.com wrote:

WE DO NOT KILL AND HARM OTHERS PHYSICALLY JUST BECAUSE THEY PISS US OFF

Unless they are quote "Orange Bastards". :rolleyes:

bonkey

naughty_girl wrote:

There are many things I disagree with in the east- the way they treeat their animals is also hideous.
...
I know we are pretty bad, but we aren't as bad as them.

Why aren't we as bad?

Because animals are generally only mistreated in the West for profit and not religion?

We could all do with some lessons in humaity, and dealing with the world around us.

We all could, indeed.

jc

bonkey

tj-music.com wrote:

WE DO NOT KILL AND HARM OTHERS PHYSICALLY JUST BECAUSE THEY PISS US OFF

Yeah. I've never seen a fight start because one bloke insulted another....or made moves on the wrong girl....or for any reason other than.....

oh...wait....

Never mind.

jc