Cheney shooting

dathi1

Someone try explaining how a person could shoot another during a quail shoot? I've never been on a bird shoot but don't they fly overhead?

civdef

Apparently the procedure on the shoot in question is to walk in groups of 3 in a line abreast, the man who was shot stopped to pick up a shot bird, but didnt tell the others, Cheney swun on a flushing quail, and managed to catch yer man at a distance of about 30m with some of the shot pattern. Apparently he isn't badly injured.

Sparks

Shooting first, thinking about adverse consequences later. It's totally out of character for the man...

deRanged

dathi1 wrote:

Someone try explaining how a person could shoot another during a quail shoot? I've never been on a bird shoot but don't they fly overhead?

It sounds like you're talking about a driven shoot, like you'd see on TV. The shooters are usually static on those, and the game is driven towards them. Even then, each shooter has an arc in which they can shoot, and outside that they shouldn't.

On a coarse shoot you could have a number of shooters walking ditches or fields or whatever. With this you don't have such a well defined arc to shoot in, so if someone walks into it things can get more exciting.
It's not unusual for flushed game birds to fly very low or to follow the line of a ditch.
If you've two or more parties shooting the same ditch and a bird crosses over it can literally start raining shot!

I usually follow the approach that the safest numbers of people shooting is 1.

Clare gunner

civdef wrote:

Apparently the procedure on the shoot in question is to walk in groups of 3 in a line abreast, the man who was shot stopped to pick up a shot bird, but didnt tell the others, Cheney swun on a flushing quail, and managed to catch yer man at a distance of about 30m with some of the shot pattern. Apparently he isn't badly injured.

Shows the VITAL importance of keeping inline on a driven shoot,and knowing exactly where your fellow shooters are at any moment.Not to mind beaters ,dogs etc.Communication between all is deadly important.wooded .Dont know what terrain Cheney and the boys were hunting in.But if it was quail,it would be high grass field type stuff.Quail are usually a flock bird,so they will rise in a big ball of birds.
Lucky for that fellow that he was out with the VP,there would have been enough secret service,paramedics and doctors who specialise in gunshot upon him in seconds.

jcatony

Looks like bush isnt the only dummy in the white house.

coyote6

It may be a result of tunnel vision as a result of a rapidly spiking heart rate (and we know VP Cheney's ticker isn't exactly new). You become much more "target focused". Cheney probably didn't ever see the guy. His eyes also aren't the youngest so a rapid change of focus would be tough. Even a trained operator has to constantly battle against tunnel vision and auditory exclusion. If any one is interested check out the book "On Combat" it is a well written and researched book on the physical and mental reaction to combat. Basic safety protocols were broken. The guy who got shot should have followed those. I wouldn't lay all the blame on the veep.

Reaver772

Simple explanation - the guy was a democrat!

TomBeckett

Next week there going Fullbore!!
There going to put Bush sitting an a bar stool with a chicken on his head there going to dress up like Mujja hadden warriors and try to take a cigar out of the chickens mouth with a .50bmg @ 1600yds!!
Ready
Aim
Steady
Steady!!!
F**K Sake!!
ok BOOOOM = Kentucky fried Chicken:D

Sparks

coyote6 wrote:

Basic safety protocols were broken. The guy who got shot should have followed those. I wouldn't lay all the blame on the veep.

Nuts to that thought. Cheney was the one with the finger on the trigger. If he's not willing to accept the responsibility of looking at what he's aiming at, then he's got no business picking up any kind of firearm. On top of which, from the description of the argument, he had to wheel through 180 degrees to hit Whittington. Correct me if I'm wrong, because walking up to domesticated quail with a shotgun isn't on my list of ways to pass the time, but isn't that way outside the safety rules of driven hunts?

Personally, I'm wondering how the NRA's going to react to this - Cheney's been their golden boy for years, but they also have a very strong safety message they have to back up.

On a more serious note, Whittington has since been readmitted to ICU after a minor heart attack. Some of the birdshot he was shot with has lodged in his heart.

fre

The blame must be laid on the shooter - how many times have you not taken a shot because it wasn't right? Especially in a group shoot - its up to the people with the firearms to know where everyone else is.

Heinrich

civdef wrote:

Apparently the procedure on the shoot in question is to walk in groups of 3 in a line abreast, the man who was shot stopped to pick up a shot bird, but didnt tell the others, Cheney swun on a flushing quail, and managed to catch yer man at a distance of about 30m with some of the shot pattern. Apparently he isn't badly injured.

He only got a pellet in the heart causing a heart attack - nothing serious or life threatening!!!:mad:

airy-fairy

Did the pellet go straight to the heart? I thought that the pellet travelled there via a vein.

He was discharged before he that the heart attack and the docs noticed the pellet there. You'd think that being shot in the heart would show up in the initial examination...

If the guy who was shot was not abiding by the rules for safe conduct he put him self at risk and has to take some responsibility. You don't go forward of the line of guns when walking up... cos if you do you are liable to get shot.

Sparks

airy-fairy wrote:

Did the pellet go straight to the heart? I thought that the pellet travelled there via a vein.

I thought so as well.

He was discharged before he that the heart attack and the docs noticed the pellet there. You'd think that being shot in the heart would show up in the initial examination...

Well, he wasn't discharged - he was released from ICU after two or three days. For a 78-year-old, that's a pretty serious place to be, by the way!

If the guy who was shot was not abiding by the rules for safe conduct he put him self at risk and has to take some responsibility. You don't go forward of the line of guns when walking up... cos if you do you are liable to get shot.

He wasn't forward of the line; he was 30 yards behind them. Cheney had to turn through 180 degrees to hit him, and then Whittington caught the full force of the shot.

airy-fairy

Behind the line! I got the impression he had dissappeared forward to retreive a bird (do they have no dogs?).

Thanks for clearing the story up BTW. Looks like I was wrong on most points regarding what happened!

Sparks

airy-fairy wrote:

Behind the line! I got the impression he had dissappeared forward to retreive a bird (do they have no dogs?).

No, he'd shot two birds, stopped to retrieve them, told the line to continue on, and was walking up behind them when he got shot. Apparently there were dogs, not sure what was causing him problems in finding the quail.

Clare gunner

Sparks wrote:

Nuts to that thought. Cheney was the one with the finger on the trigger. If he's not willing to accept the responsibility of looking at what he's aiming at, then he's got no business picking up any kind of firearm.

Apprently he did accept responsibility on this.Plus as Coyote said this is an old duffer,who was out shooting with a bunch of old coots.so I would include in this some deafness,and people not paying attention as well as they should to where who was or should be there when.

On top of which, from the description of the argument, he had to wheel through 180 degrees to hit Whittington. Correct me if I'm wrong, because walking up to domesticated quail with a shotgun isn't on my list of ways to pass the time, but isn't that way outside the safety rules of driven hunts?

Find this hard to belive myself,as Cheney would have to swing thru 90degrees of the shooting line [if there was one] and then fire.More than likely he forgot that Whittington was behind him picking up the dead bird and he stood up as Cheney fired.It would be outside the rules if it was a shooting line set up.IE all line abreast.But this seems to be an informal set up and cant comment further as I dont know the terrain over which they were hunting.Think they were wild quail myself.

Personally, I'm wondering how the NRA's going to react to this - Cheney's been their golden boy for years, but they also have a very strong safety message they have to back up.

They already have, as Sarah and Mike Brady,the loveable nuts who run Handgun control INC ,put their feet and wheelchair tyres in it by saying"I knew Cheney was scary,but now I know I am right"[Sarah Brady] and "Now I know why Dick always is inviting me out hunting"[Mike Brady]
NRA mentioned the fact that the Bradys have sunk to the lowest yet,and have made "dancing in blood a fine art".Apart from that the NRA has stated that basically accidents do happen to the best of us.And quite frankly folks,who amongst us here is without guilt and able to cast the first stone??

Sparks

Clare gunner wrote:

Apprently he did accept responsibility on this.

Where did it say this?

Plus as Coyote said this is an old duffer,who was out shooting with a bunch of old coots.

So they all ought to be old enough to know better!

Find this hard to belive myself,as Cheney would have to swing thru 90degrees of the shooting line [if there was one] and then fire.

Nevertheless, that's what the eyewitness accounts say happened.

Think they were wild quail myself.

Nope, farmed quail. The ranch they were on was set up to raise quail in pens and let people shoot them.

They already have, as Sarah and Mike Brady,the loveable nuts who run Handgun control INC ,put their feet and wheelchair tyres in it by saying"I knew Cheney was scary,but now I know I am right"[Sarah Brady] and "Now I know why Dick always is inviting me out hunting"[Mike Brady]

*hehe*
Well, they may be a pain in the ass most of the time, but that second quote is actually worth a grin or two

NRA mentioned the fact that the Bradys have sunk to the lowest yet,and have made "dancing in blood a fine art".Apart from that the NRA has stated that basically accidents do happen to the best of us.And quite frankly folks,who amongst us here is without guilt and able to cast the first stone??

Check the NRA's commandments on firearms for hunters CG: Always keep the gun pointed in a safe direction, always keep your finger off the trigger until ready to shoot, always keep the gun unloaded until ready to use and be sure of your target and what lies beyond it. Or in their words, "This means observing your prospective area of fire before you shoot. Never fire in a direction in which there are people or any other potential for mishap. Think first. Shoot second." As repeated by the Texas Parks and Wildlife Department website. The P&W department, by the way, has found that the cause of the accident was a "hunter's judgment factor."
Basicly, the Bradys are right in this case. Cheney acted unsafely and injured someone and, like in the case where you drive into the back of someone who stops suddenly on the M50, it's your fault - end of story. Doesn't matter if other people have had similar accidents CG - if you muck up, you muck up. It's an absolute. It has to be, or else you're not really making safety your top priority.

Clare gunner

To err is to be human,to forgive is divine .Sparks.Yes,firearm saftey is paramount with us all,no doubt with mr Cheney as well.I am sure Cheney didnt set out to shoot the misfory=tunate fellow[although if it had been Bill Clinton ,it might have been a different story ]Incidents like these behove
us all to be more careful,and frankly I,and anyone who is honest with themselves will admit they have done klutzy things with their firearms with greater or lesser consequences to themselves,property or others.We are human and like all of us prone to mistakes.SoI am sure you too Sparks have made some odd daft basic saftey mistakes aswell
I am not one to take a holier than thou attitude on this,as it is very embarrassing for those who go on about things like this to be reminded of their pontifications when they screw up.
As for driving into somone into the M50.That can depend on many factors as to who is right or wrong.Was it some bint who decided the fast lane was a good place to change their tyre?[has happened].Many things,usually small,add up to accidents.

jeffshc1

We probably will never know exactly what happened.
Fact is I’d rather Quail hunt with Cheney than ride across a bridge with Ted Kennedy.

civdef

He's also taking full personal responsibility for the incident apparently.

Clash

Clare gunner wrote:

I,and anyone who is honest with themselves will admit they have done klutzy things with their firearms with greater or lesser consequences to themselves,property or others.

Usually when younger and more inexperienced though.

Was it some bint who decided the fast lane was a good place to change their tyre?[has happened].

It's not the fast lane, it's the overtaking lane. The sooner everyone realises this, the safer our motorways will be.

Clare gunner

Clash wrote:

Usually when younger and more inexperienced though.

So long as one learns from it.But there seem to be plenty of "oul fools"out there

It's not the fast lane, it's the overtaking lane. The sooner everyone realises this, the safer our motorways will be

Nothing like calling a spade a manually powerd earth inverting horticultural impliment is there?:rolleyes: .More like as soon as we get the L plated ones on their tenth provo lics off the FAST lane the better.

rrpc

Clare gunner wrote:

So long as one learns from it.But there seem to be plenty of "oul fools"out there

Oh, I just met one of those on Sunday. Drove straight across (yes across!) the road in front of me. Then couldn't find reverse :eek:

Nothing like calling a spade a manually powerd earth inverting horticultural impliment is there?:rolleyes:

Actually to be pedantic about it :cool: It's a bi-manual earth-inverting...etc.

More like as soon as we get the L plated ones on their tenth provo lics off the FAST lane the better.

And the other gob****es who think because somebody called it the FAST lane, that they have every right to camp in it because "I'm going fast aren't I?"

Clare gunner

You need TWO people to operate a spade???:eek:

Double Barrel

I find the facts as described by the White House and the woman in Texas improbable. You're responsible, as the shooter, for knowing no person is in your line of fire before you pull the trigger. So this stuff about Harry Whittington being at fault for the accident just doesn't wash.
Now, just to be clear where we're going here. I don't think any bad act took place here or anything nefarious. What I suspect is that this was some pretty big f@#k up by the vice-president. And the White House is passing it off as the result of reckless behavior on the part of the guy who got shot. In addition, they're putting out word that getting hit by close range shotgun fire isn't a big deal.

At a minimum it seems a tad ungentlemanly to put out word through your media operation that the guy you just shot was at fault for getting shot.

Dick Cheney screwed up and violated one of the most important rules of hunting.

Think before you shoot.

Know your surroundings before you pull the trigger. Particularly identify the game that you are shooting and particularly identify your surroundings, that it's safe to shoot.

It is the simple geography of safety that determines that we are here and we only shoot there -- that is, ahead of us. It has certain mandates. One is that at any given moment, one should know where everybody in the hunting party is. You have to keep those images in mind as you move over the ground. It has to be second nature. Never shoot without being absolutely sure of what you're shooting at, and what's behind it.

When you're shooting and you hit a person -- that is your fault.

Good Luck

Clare gunner

Very true what you say DB.

However I think what has happened is the White House spin doctors have been involved in it as well.Damage limitation springs to mind,or making it worse in this case.
If it was anyone else apart from the VP of the United States this would have rated a line in the local paper.
But in all fairness Cheney admitted it was his fault,and the worst Saturday in his life,and Whittington said he empathised with Cheney as to what he had to go thru in the media.

[As Jay Leno said this improved Cheneys poupurlarity by 95%.Not because he was hunting ,but because he shot a lawyer.:rolleyes: ]

Double Barrel

"If it was anyone else apart from the VP of the United States this would have rated a line in the local paper." Without question.

No one who has gone hunting will blame Mr. Cheney particularly for the accident, just bad judgement, accidents happen. We all know it. I applaud him for taking responsibility for his action.

I tend to forget that we are not speaking of regular sportsmen but of politicians who shoot and of course everything is open to interpretation...er spin .

So, whatever he did to poor Harry Whittington, Cheney's secrecy amounted to shooting himself in the foot. A simple chronology of events and a spokesman's response to follow-up questions would have laid most of this to rest.... the Next day.

Good Luck

Double Barrel

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y126/gunboom/harv0214.jpg

Mighty unfair if you ask me...that Gundog has only one solicitor representing his interest.

Good luck