Fitz tonight?

Iago

$100 FO right? what kind of numbers/ prizepool does it normally get?

5starpool

usually gets around 50-60 runners, but last week was only 44 I think, very poor. Thus prize pool usually around 5k-ish, with around half going to the winner.

It's a tourney I enjoy, and will be going tonight.

bohsman

Its actually around $135 with reg..

5starpool

bohsman wrote:

Its actually around $135 with reg..

Funny boy. Nearly had me confused for a sec.

White Knight

Day off tomorrow .. so im on my way in now too!

Iago

Played in this tonight and by the fact that I'm home early you can see that I didn't do so well...although I did achieve my main objective, not to get knocked out in the first hand!! Although it was very tempting to push UTG with 92o I managed to resist it. 47 runners started the game, with 2 tables downstairs and 3 upstairs.

It all started off so well, about 6 hands in I pick up 44 in the CO, two limpers in front of me and I limp as well. SB completes and BB raises to 200, the limpers call, so I follow suit, as does the SB.

Flop comes down Kc 7c 4h, SB checks, BB bets 400, first limper folds and the second limper immediately to my right raises to 1,600. I think for about 10 seconds and re-raise to 3,200 leaving me with about 1,500 behind. The BB seems to strongly consider calling but folds, and the limper pushes for 800 more and is all-in. I call expecting him to turn over 77, but he turns K4 and I double up to over 8K...sweet.

Then the night started to get interesting, there were three key hands and I'm keen to get other opinions on what I did wrong in them. Be as critical as you like, it can only help me.

Hand 1: I get QsQc in late position, two limpers and it comes around to me. Blinds are 50/100 so I raise to 500. The BB calls and has about 4.5K behind but I have her covered. MP calls as well and we see a flop.

Flop comes down Ks Js 7h. It's checked to me and I bet 800, BB flat calls and MP folds.

Turn is the Ts giving me and up and down straight flush draw. BB checks and bet 1500 and the BB flat calls.

River is 7d so no good, BB bets 1000, and I feel I have to call from here, I call and she turns over Ad Kh to take the pot. Should I have played it differently?

I still have just over 5K in chips though so no panic. A few hands later I pick up TcTs in the SB. All fold to the button who limps and I raise to 500, BB flat calls and the button folds.

Flop comes down Jd 8d 3s, I bet 1000 and the button flat calls, leaving 1600 behind. At this point I'm convinced he has either AJ-88 or maybe KK-QQ, he's letting me bet into him trying to get maximum value.

Turn is the 3c, I check (very very weak I know) and he pushes, exactly as I expected him too. At this stage if I call here and lose I'm down to just over 2K with the blinds about to go up to 100/200. I fold and show TT, thoughts?

This last hand is the one that really killed me and left me floundering. I pick up KsKh on the button with the blinds at 100-200. There's one limper in front of me and I raise to 800. The BB calls as does the limper.

The flop comes down Qs 7s 3d, it's checked to me and I bet 1,000. The BB re-raises all-in for 5.5K and the limper after much thought calls. WTF?? The BB has shown two hands to date the AK that beat me earlier and a set of jacks on a flop later on. The limper seems to be a bit loose, playing plenty of flops and hands to the river without really hitting anything.

They both have me covered so if I call and lose I'm out of the tournament. I've raised preflop and bet on the flop and they've both come over the top of me. If only one of them had then I call here in a flash, but two of them? I took the full amount of time allotted to me and then folded showing the kings face up. There was a general consenus that it was a crazy fold, and when the BB turned over AQo and the limper turned over 87s it seemed they were right.

Ts on the turn gave the limper the pot, knocked out the BB and would have knocked me out as well if I had called. Was folding the wrong move regardless? I don't think so, I'd of called against one player, but against two I have to consider that I'm well behind and chasing a miracle. Or at the very least I'm up against draws of 12+ cards on turn and river that can beat me. Any thoughts here?

After that I ended up getting blinded away, for 20 minutes the best hand I saw was Q3s in MP with a raise in front of me so I folded. Flop came down Q Q 3 doh!!

With 1400 left and the blinds at 200-400 with me sitting on the BB, MP1 made it 1000 to go and I pushed with 22 hoping for a race, he turned over 99 and out I went soon after the break, around about 24th I think.

DeVore came in just after the break and tried to sit at the tournament table thinking it was a cash game, when it was pointed out to him his answer was "Well when I saw Iago there I figured it must be a cash game, he wouldn't last that long in a tournament" har de har har...everyone's a comedian.

Before leaving I won €65 playing BlackJack so €45 for a night's entertainment was well worth it. With a bit more luck I might have lasted longer and maybe cashed, I look forward to playing it again.

5starpool

Just to be picky, it was 2k you bet on the flop with your KK. I had only just arrived to the table at that time (to your right), so can't really comment as I didn't know the guy who won. He was UTG in that hand with 78s, and had limped before your raise.

I was down to 525 at one stage, managed through 2 double ups and numerous blind steals to get it up to 6300 when i went out with AK vs 22. No help. Frustrating when you are shortstacked all night.

Iago

you're right it was, my mistake...would you have called there?

5starpool

Iago wrote:

you're right it was, my mistake...would you have called there?

Hard one. You had nearly 1/2 (i think) of your stack in postflop. I knew by the Button that she would have reraised preflop if she had AA, or even QQ, as I have played with her lots. The other guy was the wildcard. He didn't look like he really wanted to call (understandable given what he had). Flush draw or AQ was all I would have put either of them on, not an overpair, and given that I would have called. I think it is one of those wrong folds, right result hands. Similiar to when I laid down AK to big preflop betting only to see AQ and AJ turned over, but the J hit.

I would have had to call in your position using that reasoning tbh, as you were reduced to double up hopes after that, with not enough chips to play with on that table where there were lots of raises called preflop.

Iago

5starpool wrote:

Hard one. You had nearly 1/2 (i think) of your stack in postflop. I knew by the Button that she would have reraised preflop if she had AA, or even QQ, as I have played with her lots. The other guy was the wildcard. He didn't look like he really wanted to call (understandable given what he had). Flush draw or AQ was all I would have put either of them on, not an overpair, and given that I would have called. I think it is one of those wrong folds, right result hands. Similiar to when I laid down AK to big preflop betting only to see AQ and AJ turned over, but the J hit.

I would have had to call in your position using that reasoning tbh, as you were reduced to double up hopes after that, with not enough chips to play with on that table where there were lots of raises called preflop.

Yeah, when she called I was thinking AQ or maybe 77 either way I was calling regardless. When he called I thought the same as yourself it was likely he was on a flush draw, but it was possible that he's limped with 77 or 33 (by the way he had been playing to date) so in a best case scenario my opponents have 12 outs leaving me at 52/48 or so to win the hand. In the worst case scenario I'm praying for a K to come out and drawing almost dead.

I still had 2,700 left behind with the blinds at 100/200 and felt I'd get a chance to play in future hands. Even then I felt that I should be calling and that's why I took so long about the decision, right up to the point where I turned them up I thought I was going to call, but something stopped me. I just "felt" that I wasn't going to win the hand. I think you're right though, wrong decision, right hand.

One thing that did bother me was the table situation. We were left for 2 hands before the break and about 5 hands after the break with only 6 players while there was two tables of 8 players upstairs. I don't think it would have affected the outcome, but I'd of had an extra hand or two to wait for the aces, and maybe the change in card distribution would have seen an epic comeback..then again, maybe not

5starpool

The person that came into your seat got AA the first hand we had a full table. Typical says you.

Culchie

My 2 cents .... and normally Iago I really like your hand analysis, so this is unusual for me to disagree with some of your play, but this is what the forum is for .... I'm sure my views will be challenged as well.

Iago wrote:

Hand 1: I get QsQc in late position, two limpers and it comes around to me. Blinds are 50/100 so I raise to 500. The BB calls and has about 4.5K behind but I have her covered. MP calls as well and we see a flop.

Flop comes down Ks Js 7h. It's checked to me and I bet 800, BB flat calls and MP folds.

Turn is the Ts giving me and up and down straight flush draw. BB checks and bet 1500 and the BB flat calls.

River is 7d so no good, BB bets 1000, and I feel I have to call from here, I call and she turns over Ad Kh to take the pot. Should I have played it differently?

I think you should have taken your free card on the turn when it was given to you (mistake by opponent). It was a fairly decent preflop raise, and after the flop bet was called, unless you have the player down as being very tricky with a bluff call, I would have given them credit for a king, and put brakes on.

Iago wrote:

I still have just over 5K in chips though so no panic. A few hands later I pick up TcTs in the SB. All fold to the button who limps and I raise to 500, BB flat calls and the button folds.

Flop comes down Jd 8d 3s, I bet 1000 and the button flat calls, leaving 1600 behind. At this point I'm convinced he has either AJ-88 or maybe KK-QQ, he's letting me bet into him trying to get maximum value.

Turn is the 3c, I check (very very weak I know) and he pushes, exactly as I expected him too. At this stage if I call here and lose I'm down to just over 2K with the blinds about to go up to 100/200. I fold and show TT, thoughts?

Trickier, out of position and at this stage of tourney, I'd be inclined to just make up small blind and take it from there after flop. Hope for a low flop, and bet out. I would have bet out the 400 you used with your preflop raise representing that Jack, and put brakes on if (as was the case) resistence was there.

Iago wrote:

This last hand is the one that really killed me and left me floundering. I pick up KsKh on the button with the blinds at 100-200. There's one limper in front of me and I raise to 800. The BB calls as does the limper.

The flop comes down Qs 7s 3d, it's checked to me and I bet 1,000. The BB re-raises all-in for 5.5K and the limper after much thought calls. WTF?? The BB has shown two hands to date the AK that beat me earlier and a set of jacks on a flop later on. The limper seems to be a bit loose, playing plenty of flops and hands to the river without really hitting anything.

They both have me covered so if I call and lose I'm out of the tournament. I've raised preflop and bet on the flop and they've both come over the top of me. If only one of them had then I call here in a flash, but two of them? I took the full amount of time allotted to me and then folded showing the kings face up. There was a general consenus that it was a crazy fold, and when the BB turned over AQo and the limper turned over 87s it seemed they were right.

Bad fold I think. With two limpers in, I'd be inclined to increase preflop raise to make the drawing hands pay more.

Iago wrote:

Ts on the turn gave the limper the pot, knocked out the BB and would have knocked me out as well if I had called. Was folding the wrong move regardless? I don't think so, I'd of called against one player, but against two I have to consider that I'm well behind and chasing a miracle. Or at the very least I'm up against draws of 12+ cards on turn and river that can beat me. Any thoughts here?

Results based thinking?
A bigger raise preflop would probably have driven the 78 from the pot, (unless player X type dude). I would definitely have have stuck with this hand, with 2800 already committed, I can't fold this.

Iago

Culchie wrote:

I think you should have taken your free card on the turn when it was given to you (mistake by opponent). It was a fairly decent preflop raise, and after the flop bet was called, unless you have the player down as being very tricky with a bluff call, I would have given them credit for a king, and put brakes on.

Had the turn been a blank then I would have just checked and waited on the river. because it gave me a monster option I decided to bet it for two reasons, firstly if the caller has a weakish K she may well fold with a possible straight and flush on the board. Secondly if the river is a spade or A then I want her to have to call a bet there. By increasing the amount in the pot I think I do that. However taking a free card wouldn't be a bad thing at all there, and might have been the best option considering she was clearly representing a K.

Culchie wrote:

Trickier, out of position and at this stage of tourney, I'd be inclined to just make up small blind and take it from there after flop. Hope for a low flop, and bet out. I would have bet out the 400 you used with your preflop raise representing that Jack, and put brakes on if (as was the case) resistence was there.

I don't like limping with TT, again maybe I get them to fold, or better yet call with Ax and not yet and I increase my winnings. However given that I had been betting fairly aggressively (always with hands though) maybe a limp would have been better.

Culchie wrote:

Bad fold I think. With two limpers in, I'd be inclined to increase preflop raise to make the drawing hands pay more.

Results based thinking?
A bigger raise preflop would probably have driven the 78 from the pot, (unless player X type dude). I would definitely have have stuck with this hand, with 2800 already committed, I can't fold this.

Well I wanted a caller here, I didn't want a couple of them. 600-800 had been the standard raise at the table and anymore than that would probably have set off alarm bells. As the hands worked out the AQ would have called anyway, so maybe you're right.

I almost never fold here, but it seemed like an odd betting pattern for a weak flush draw, and I honestly believed that at least one of them had hit a set, weak play on my part.

Gholimoli

Iago wrote:

Had the turn been a blank then I would have just checked and waited on the river. because it gave me a monster option I decided to bet it for two reasons, firstly if the caller has a weakish K she may well fold with a possible straight and flush on the board. Secondly if the river is a spade or A then I want her to have to call a bet there. By increasing the amount in the pot I think I do that. However taking a free card wouldn't be a bad thing at all there, and might have been the best option considering she was clearly representing a K.





I don't like limping with TT, again maybe I get them to fold, or better yet call with Ax and not yet and I increase my winnings. However given that I had been betting fairly aggressively (always with hands though) maybe a limp would have been better.




Well I wanted a caller here, I didn't want a couple of them. 600-800 had been the standard raise at the table and anymore than that would probably have set off alarm bells. As the hands worked out the AQ would have called anyway, so maybe you're right.

I almost never fold here, but it seemed like an odd betting pattern for a weak flush draw, and I honestly believed that at least one of them had hit a set, weak play on my part.

you raise pre flop, you bet the flop and get called on both times. this screams top pair but i wanna i keep the pot small.you get your draw on the turn however you should almost always take your free card here. nothing will be gained by betting here. if villain had the K she is not gonna fold. if she was drawing she just hit her draw. When your on the come then you want to see the next card as cheap as possible because after all its a draw. hence you should deffo take the free card and hope for a cheap show down.

The KK hand:
Very weak fold man, you have alot invested here and your beating the board with only two cards to come.
the reason why you getaway from hands IMO is because you think your deep enough and so have enough time to wait for a better spot. hats the only reason why you should ever make big folds. Here when folding you don’t have much left at all to wait for a better chance. Also the fact that you were up against two opponents does change things at all. You have KK here with an opportunity to triple up, if that should lead to you going bust then so be it.

Culchie

Iago wrote:

Had the turn been a blank then I would have just checked and waited on the river. because it gave me a monster option I decided to bet it for two reasons, firstly if the caller has a weakish K she may well fold with a possible straight and flush on the board. Secondly if the river is a spade or A then I want her to have to call a bet there. By increasing the amount in the pot I think I do that. However taking a free card wouldn't be a bad thing at all there, and might have been the best option considering she was clearly representing a K.





I don't like limping with TT, again maybe I get them to fold, or better yet call with Ax and not yet and I increase my winnings. However given that I had been betting fairly aggressively (always with hands though) maybe a limp would have been better.




Well I wanted a caller here, I didn't want a couple of them. 600-800 had been the standard raise at the table and anymore than that would probably have set off alarm bells. As the hands worked out the AQ would have called anyway, so maybe you're right.

I almost never fold here, but it seemed like an odd betting pattern for a weak flush draw, and I honestly believed that at least one of them had hit a set, weak play on my part.

I won't nitpick, because you've seen my logic, and I have seen yours.

Just these couple of last points ... (a) the 10's hand you are badly out of position, ... and (b) the regarding my preflop raise (suggesting it wasn't enough) on the KK hand, well you got 2 callers with your QQ hand raising 5BB earlier, so it seems like in order to narrow this table down you should have gone with a 5 or 6 BB raise this time.
I've lately started adding a 'tax' to my raises ... 1 extra BB for any limper in the pot above standard 4*BB raise, and I like the results. (i.e 1 limper = 5BB, 2 limpers 6BB)

Gholimoli

i think Culchies analysis was spot on .
also the standard 3BB raise + 1BB for every limper is a very good technique and you should adjust the standard raises based on the odds your giving ppl behind you.

cardshark202

Gholimoli wrote:

you raise pre flop, you bet the flop and get called on both times. this screams top pair but i wanna i keep the pot small.you get your draw on the turn however you should almost always take your free card here. nothing will be gained by betting here. if villain had the K she is not gonna fold. if she was drawing she just hit her draw. When your on the come then you want to see the next card as cheap as possible because after all its a draw. hence you should deffo take the free card and hope for a cheap show down.

The KK hand:
Very weak fold man, you have alot invested here and your beating the board with only two cards to come.
the reason why you getaway from hands IMO is because you think your deep enough and so have enough time to wait for a better spot. hats the only reason why you should ever make big folds. Here when folding you don’t have much left at all to wait for a better chance. Also the fact that you were up against two opponents does change things at all. You have KK here with an opportunity to triple up, if that should lead to you going bust then so be it.

I'm sorry but regardless of whether you're right or wrong in your analysis I find it very hard to respect the MTT strategy advice of someone who advocates folding preflop in the later stages of an MTT.

Culchie

cardshark202 wrote:

I'm sorry but regardless of whether you're right or wrong in your analysis I find it very hard to respect the MTT strategy advice of someone who advocates folding preflop in the later stages of an MTT.

Keep the personal stuff to the PM lads if you're going down that route.

Iago

Culchie wrote:

I won't nitpick, because you've seen my logic, and I have seen yours.

Just these couple of last points ... (a) the 10's hand you are badly out of position, ... and (b) the regarding my preflop raise (suggesting it wasn't enough) on the KK hand, well you got 2 callers with your QQ hand raising 5BB earlier, so it seems like in order to narrow this table down you should have gone with a 5 or 6 BB raise this time.
I've lately started adding a 'tax' to my raises ... 1 extra BB for any limper in the pot above standard 4*BB raise, and I like the results. (i.e 1 limper = 5BB, 2 limpers 6BB)

good points. Don't get me wrong, I don't feel I played any of these hands well. If I had of I wouldn't have been knocked out.

In many ways a limp/small bet/ fold strategy for the TT would have been a far smarter move when I wasn't under any stack pressure. Similarly taking a free card with QQ when I knew I was behind unless my draw hit was also a much better strategy.

Had I done both of those I could have called with KK and left myself plenty behind to continue the game. Certainly a lesson learned, and I appreciate all the comments. I need to start playing live more.

Gholimoli

cardshark202 wrote:

I'm sorry but regardless of whether you're right or wrong in your analysis I find it very hard to respect the MTT strategy advice of someone who advocates folding preflop in the later stages of an MTT.

No need to be sorry man.
First of all the advice was given to you and OP was asking for opinions and that’s who the opinion was aimed at.
Second of all (and I hope I can get this across right) I honestly and genuinely don’t care what you think of my comments, advice, game, skill, talent and I don’t know what made you think I do.
3) there has been some interesting discussion on this thread and others today and the fact that of all the comments you could have made about the subject in hand you choose to comment about something irrelevant and also the fact that you mentioned “regardless of whether your right or wrong…” says a lot about you and your attitude towards the game.
You will go far in this game I can tell.

sunzz

Ghol ain't doing to badly with regards the mtt tournies on line

Nice 4k last week ghol :cool:

Norwich Fan Rob

havent read the other replies, dashing out, so sorry it this is a repeat but i suggest the following:

QQ - take the free card on the turn.
Good fold with the TT.
KK - definite call given your stack, u need to take on the flush draw here.

Never call a 1k raiser with 22 !!!!!!
(u are better off open raising all in with ATC than calling a raise with 22)