Why the Tricolour doesn't work for me

DublinWriter

Our national flag, the tricolour, was originally designed as a piece of symbolism to signify peace between Nationalists and Orangemen.

However, it's one basic flaw is that it aspires to include a people who pledge allegience to a different nation and have no wish to ever be citizens of an Irish republic of any shape or form.

Although many Orangemen state that the LOL has nothing to do with politics, the fundamental pillar of Orangism is faith and subservience to the British Crown.

It would be as if the Mexico decided to incorporate some of the Texan flag in it's national flag in the hope that some day they'd reclaim the area and that Texans would want to become Mexicans.

I also would draw the distiction between Prodestant and Orange; many nationalist heros were Prodestant - Tone, Emmett, Casement et al. In fact many Prodestants I know, both North and South, would be insulted to be automatically presumed to have anything to do with the Orange Order.

Personally, I believe the precursor to the Tricolour, the Gold Harp on a green background, is a more suitable flag for our nation.

(http://www.infoplease.com/spot/irishflag1.html)

stereo_steve

I don't think it should be changed. It's part of our culture now. Foreign people see it and instantly know its the Irish Flag. Why change it?

Sure it started out as something else, but its different now. To most people its just a set of colours to which they identify with.

flogen

DublinWriter wrote:

Our national flag, the tricolour, was originally designed as a piece of symbolism to signify peace between Nationalists and Orangemen.

However, it's one basic flaw is that it aspires to include a people who pledge allegience to a different nation and have no wish to ever be citizens of an Irish republic of any shape or form.

Although many Orangemen state that the LOL has nothing to do with politics, the fundamental pillar of Orangism is faith and subservience to the British Crown.

It would be as if the Mexico decided to incorporate some of the Texan flag in it's national flag in the hope that some day they'd reclaim the area and that Texans would want to become Mexicans.

I also would draw the distiction between Prodestant and Orange; many nationalist heros were Prodestant - Tone, Emmett, Casement et al. In fact many Prodestants I know, both North and South, would be insulted to be automatically presumed to have anything to do with the Orange Order.

Personally, I believe the precursor to the Tricolour, the Gold Harp on a green background, is a more suitable flag for our nation.

(http://www.infoplease.com/spot/irishflag1.html)

I know it was created with the idea of a United Ireland, but while there is a flaw, it's still a nice message. Why can't it be peace between two sections of the Island of Ireland, even if they both follow a different set of politicians?

Besides, it is a relic from a different time, but now it's just a symbol of ROI. It may have been made with one concept, but that doesn't really mean anything now.
Lets say NI is given back to the Republic, do you think the UK would change their Union Jack? No, because it is now a representation of something different to what it was originally based on

arbeitsscheuer

Actually the flag that that was used as a symbol of the island of Ireland right up until 1916 was a gold harp on a NAVY background.

In fact, while we're on the subject, the traditional colour of this island is Navy, not Green or Emerald.

LordSutch

Yeah, I agree with most of what you say DublinWriter and it is very true that the National identy of Unionists has nothing to do with the Tricolour but has everything to do with the Union Flag and/or the cross of StPatrick.

I suppose in theory, if 1916-1922 (The South exiting the UK) (and then exiting the Commonwealth) in 1949 had never happened then it might be possible for the Whole Island to lay claim and to stand proud under the one flag, but unfortunately that flag cant be the "Tricolour" because its just too tarnished in the eyes of Unionists and it denies the Union between England, Scotland, N.ireland & Wales, but as you say DublinWriter The Tricolour does "In Theory" unite the Green & Orange Traditions with White in the centre to symbolise peace between the two traditions, But!
and its a Very Big But .........................................................

Sir Oxman

SebtheBum wrote:

The Union Jack has nothing to do with Northern Ireland. It symbolises the Union between England, Scotland, and to a lesser extent Wales.

Union Jack is made up of the crosses of St George (England), St Andrew (Scotland) and St Patrick (Ireland), so it has something to do with (Northern) Ireland.

http://www.royal.gov.uk/output/page398.asp


As for the tricolour, I think it is still very relevant to Ireland and is actually quite inspiring. Nothing wrong with a flag aspiring to peace between the two main 'camps' as it were...

The gold harp on r oyal blue is very nice too and I wouldn't mind seeing it flying much more (afaik, it's the presidential flag?)

SeanW

I'm with DublinWriter on this one: the harp on a single colour background seems like a better idea.

Anyone for a referendum?

smashey

SeanW wrote:

I'm with DublinWriter on this one: the harp on a single colour background seems like a better idea.:)

If the country ever becomes united, it doesn't matter what flag is used. A large percentage of unionists would never accept or acknowledge anything with even the remotest hint of Irishness about it.

Hagar

Smashey wrote:

A large percentage of unionists would never accept or acknowledge anything with even the remotest hint of Irishness about it.

They would snatch a Euro with a Harp on the back of it out of your hand
quicker than Ian Paisley could say "NO"

smashey

Hagar wrote:

They would snatch a Euro with a Harp on the back of it out of your hand
quicker than Ian Paisley could say "NO"

Jaysus they would have to be fast to do something before the word 'no' comes out of his gob.

lostexpectation

SebtheBum wrote:

Actually the flag that that was used as a symbol of the island of Ireland right up until 1916 was a gold harp on a NAVY background.

In fact, while we're on the subject, the traditional colour of this island is Navy, not Green or Emerald.

there was very interesting program on c4 a while back about the patron saints of Britain and Ireland and trying to overcome the sectarian problems over the tricolour some towns on both sides adopted the red diagonal cross as their symbol to celebrate st patricks day...


where did the navy come from, somebody said royal blue ? is supposed to be royal blue or something completely different...

DingChavez

Maybe we should just join back with Britain......no?:v:

Litcagral

The only problem that I have with our flag is when it's reproduced with yellow instead of orange (especially when we were in the world cup) and the fact that many dimwits refer to it's colours as green, white and gold.

LostinBlanch

That's because they are referring to the offaly flag (green, white and gold) even if they don't know it.

They would snatch a Euro with a Harp on the back of it out of your hand quicker than Ian Paisley could say "NO"

I think Harry West who said in the 50's that the orangemen were loyal to the crown but more loyal to the half crown.

Not that I am anything like that old but I remember hearing this soundbite ages ago.

Hagar

If we were to change we would need a distinctive flag. Everone and his brother has a vertical tricolour. Our flag is often confused with the Italian. The Ivory Coast has the same colours reversed. The Mexican flag is not a hugely different either. here in France I have been disaapointed approching a boat to find the "Irish" flag is actually a French flag faded by sun and sea. Much as I would like to see the Gold Harp on a Royal Blue background we would only set ourselves up for ridicule as "the country sponsored by Guinness". An acid test for the new flag is "it should be identifiable in black and white" as is the Stars and Stripes, the Union Flag and the Japanese flag. We have rich graphic legacy from our Celtic roots. Surely we could utilise a Celtic symbol, An Claibh Soluis for instance or a triskel. These would be destinctive. We should also consider shape. A blind man could identify the flag of Nepal if it were placed in his hands. It is unique in not being rectangular.

I am not going to post any links. If are interested enough in the topic find the references for yourselves. I'm not spoon-feeding anyone.:p

DublinWriter

Hagar wrote:

Much as I would like to see the Gold Harp on a Royal Blue background we would only set ourselves up for ridicule as "the country sponsored by Guinness".

Obviously you've not had any state correspondance lately! The offical state symbol of Ireland is the harp, it's printed on all state stationary and brown envelopes.

Hagar wrote:

We should also consider shape. A blind man could identify the flag of Nepal if it were placed in his hands. It is unique in not being rectangular.

There's a number of non-rectagular, or non-conventional 'longer' rectangular flags, such as the offical Belgian flag, so unless the flag was printed in Braille as well, our blind friend would have some difficulty.

lostexpectation

Hagar wrote:

If we were to change we would need a distinctive flag. Everone and his
I am not going to post any links. If are interested enough in the topic find the references for yourselves. I'm not spoon-feeding anyone.:p

March 17th Happy Guinness Day.

what about having no flag?

LordSutch

On a different note 'but connected to the Tricouour theme' my uncle was a Captain in the Irish Merchant Navy during the second World War, he was torpedoed in the Atlantic by the RAF and lost most of his crew, he himself was badly wounded also (Several aircraft bullets lodged in one leg)!

For decades he cursed the "Brits" for his trauma (loss of his leg) and the loss of his crew until his death five years ago, when his daughter and I went to the Archive records office in Greenwich (London) to check-out his story about those Evil Brits and their dastardly deeds against the Irish Navy!

To cut a long story short - It transpired that the RAF Pilot was Polish and had previously been straffing Italian gun Boats in the Mediterrain! Obviously (as far as he was concerned) the flag painted on the deck of the boat was (Green White and Red) = Italian = Nazi Friendly . . . . . . . .
(The Irish Tricolour was in its infancy and was not widely recognised)!

Hagar

DublinWriter wrote:

Obviously you've not had any state correspondance lately!

Obviously you can't read my location. Stick your tax bill up your arse

Capt'n Midnight

SebtheBum wrote:

Actually the flag that that was used as a symbol of the island of Ireland right up until 1916 was a gold harp on a NAVY background.

In fact, while we're on the subject, the traditional colour of this island is Navy, not Green or Emerald.

Or St Patrick's Blue
http://foreignaffairs.gov.ie/information/publications/facts/fai/historystate.asp

The Presidential Standard is a blue flag with the heraldic harp.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Irish_flags

Litcagral

DublinWriter wrote:

The offical state symbol of Ireland is the harp, it's printed on all state stationary and brown envelopes.QUOTE]


The number of strings on the official harp varies according to the Government Department where the letter originates.

kc66

A bit off topic- I know of this guy probably around 60 now. Hes a staunch republican. All his life he refused to stand for the national anthem because he didn't recognise the Republic of Ireland. It is only the anthem of the 26 counties. Same lad has been working in London for years, spending the queens pound!

magick

Personally, I believe the precursor to the Tricolour, the Gold Harp on a green background, is a more suitable flag for our nation.

actually porbably in the minority here, but i have to agree, i think the old flag of the greenbackround and gold harp would be far more suitable and nicer

meldrew

magick wrote:

actually porbably in the minority here, but i have to agree, i think the old flag of the greenbackround and gold harp would be far more suitable and nicer[/QUOT
Nicer ? you're having a laugh Right?

AngelofFire

What about the Cross of St Patrick

democrates

All this symbolism is a load of TOSS!

What has anyone alive today got to do with the architects of these idols? Identity? Consider all of our parents dna can be traced back to the Nile rift valley.

Or is it who's lived in what geographical region for what period of time? Or what religion your ancestors were brought up to, handed down from parent to child? If you trace it back, how did it start? Is it really something eternal?

Personally I refuse to be a glove puppet on the dead hand of the past. Honour those who have died so that we may have a better life, sure, but don't assume everything they said was right. Imagine if you had a stand on some issue today, and in 100 years people were fighting based on your words without re-thinking them? Would you call that progress?

They had their time. This is ours. Move on. Civilisation has to develop, we have to live together on this blue marble, 6.4 Billion of a species out to consume and pollute beyond what the biosphere can handle. Billions will die needlessly. But hey, forget that, I don't like the shade of this flag. Let's add another wrinkle to this particular conflict.

Bam Bam

I think that the tricolour is an excellent flag and its symbolisim is very idealistic.

It was an attempt to portray the peace that can exist between to infinatly different groups.

As apt now as it was when it was first created.

Snickers Man

The flag as symbolic of an aspiration: Green for the Fenians Orange for the Jaffas and white to symbolise the hoped for peace between the two is fine.

If we're going to change anything about our symbols can we do something about our God-awful national anthem? Or even anthems?

It was so embarassing to listen to Ireland's Call being played before the match in Paris yesterday to be followed by one of the great stirring anthems La Marseillaise.

And as for our real anthem Amhran na BhFiann. That's not much better.

Can we have a good tune to play before big matches please

LordSutch

lostexpectation wrote:

there was very interesting program on c4 a while back about the patron saints of Britain and Ireland and trying to overcome the sectarian problems over the tricolour some towns on both sides adopted the red diagonal cross as their symbol to celebrate st patricks day...

The diagonal cross you speak of is the "Cross of St Patrick" and was incorporated into the Union Flag in 1801 to represent Ireland.
Obviously these days Cross Of St Patrick or (Saltire) represents Northern Ireland only.
Interesting to note that back in the 18th century many Irish people would wear the Saltire to mark St Patricks Day! also of interest is that the "New" Police service of Northern Ireland or (PSNI) has chosen the Saltire as their emblem/flag because St patrick is seen as a "safe" and non secterian figure!

LostinBlanch

Snickers Man wrote:

It was so embarassing to listen to Ireland's Call being played before the match in Paris yesterday to be followed by one of the great stirring anthems La Marseillaise.

And as for our real anthem Amhran na BhFiann. That's not much better.

Can we have a good tune to play before big matches please

Be careful what you ask for. The Soldiers Song won a national competition to find an anthem. It was later translated into Irish.

Finding a new anthem will probably mean more Saturday evenings wrecked by "You're a star - anthem search". Though given the fact that it'll probably be text voting it'll probably turn into you RA star.

As for talk about changing flags and anthems I don't think it'll be a runner. It will seem like we are giving up more of what makes us Irish to placate the likes of Paisley up north. Do you honestly think they'd give up theirs?

magick

meldrew

Nicer ? you're having a laugh Right?

nope, prefer the design

Snickers Man

LostinBlanch wrote:

Be careful what you ask for. The Soldiers Song won a national competition to find an anthem. It was later translated into Irish.

Hmm good point. Mind you, I wasn't suggesting putting that to the popular vote. And you know why they translated A Soldier's Song into Irish? It was to hide the embarassment of coming up with a word to rhyme with Ireland. What the hell is a Sireland anyway?

In case you don't believe be

Soldiers are we
Whose lives are pledged to Ireland
Some have come
From a land beyond the wave

Sworn to be free
No more our ancient Sireland
Will shelter the despot or the slave

etc etc

LostinBlanch wrote:

As for talk about changing flags and anthems I don't think it'll be a runner. It will seem like we are giving up more of what makes us Irish to placate the likes of Paisley up north. Do you honestly think they'd give up theirs?

I'm not talking about changing our anthem to placate Paisley. My motivation is merely good musical taste. Don't worry about what anybody else thinks. Ever translated the words to La Marseillaise

Marchons, Marcons
Qu'un sang impur
Abreuve nos sillons

(loosely)
Let us march on together and fill our ditches with filthy blood.

I don't think they're talking about the AIDS epidemic either .

Binomate

It looks cool.

murphaph

The gold harp on the green background is much nicer than the manky tricolour IMO. Tricolours are so common and has been said, do not render at all well in B&W! Ireland is unique in the world too-the only country in the world which uses a musical indtrument as it's official state seal. It should get greater exposure than just on tax office envelopes! The problem with the gold harp on green field is that it's already the flag of Leinster, so what are the chances of the professional whingers west of the Shannon agreeing to that! The harp on blue would be very nice but we'd find ourselves being sued by Ryanair for trademark infringement

lostexpectation

which is older the blue(azure) or green?

ivan087

i think we should stop this talk of changing the flag and anthem, because believe me before long we'll be singing some westlife song before the rugby and waving a white flag!!! (so to not offend anyone!).
but in fairness the anthem is terrible, it will never be changed, but its embarresing, at sporting occasions, when about 12 people out of 30,000 can sing it.
maybe we just need a remix...scooter!!!

DublinWriter

Snickers Man wrote:

In case you don't believe be

Soldiers are we
Whose lives are pledged to Ireland
Some have come
From a land beyond the wave

etc etc

I thought the lyrics where...

Sine Fine Fail...
Mmmm mmmm mm m m mmmmmmm mm,
Laaa laaaa laaaaahh,
deee deeee de de de deeeeeeeeeeee.

...and the last verse being...

(LOUDLY) DAH DAH DAH-DAH-DAH
DAH DAH-DAH-DAH-DA-HAAAAAA
Aaaaaaaahhhhh,
Laaaa laaaaaaaahhhh,
Laaaa-laaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhh.

arbeitsscheuer

lostexpectation wrote:

which is older the blue(azure) or green?

The blue. The first representation of the island of Ireland in flag form was a Gold Harp on a Blue (Although I must say it looks closer to Navy on the Royal Standard IMO) background.

And I'd be much prouder of that flag tbh. Represents more history and the unity of the island than a Tricolour dreamt up less than 100 years ago.

On the subject of lyrics... I like the National Anthem, and know the words pretty well, especially compared to most in Lansdowne Rd any given International match!

StupidLikeAFox

Its the Irelands Call i dont understand, wtf is up with that?

knox1664

I know the national anthem very well and i think everyone else should too! i learned it in an afternon in primary schol and as for the flag i'd go with the harp over the tricolour anyday.

Vangelis

Your flag contains a strong hope for peace.
Keep it! I don't know of any other flag with such strong symbolism.

LordSutch

Vangelis wrote:

Your flag contains a strong hope for peace.
Keep it! I don't know of any other flag with such strong symbolism.

If you are talking about the Tricolour? you are missing the point.

Say for instance (in 60 years time) the majority of people "up North" voted to leave the UK (by a small margin) then we would all be looking for a new more inclusive flag for the whole island and (the Tricolour has too much baggage)!

Hence some New "fresh" flag .............................?

Snickers Man

DublinWriter wrote:

I thought the lyrics where...

Sine Fine Fail...
Mmmm mmmm mm m m mmmmmmm mm,
Laaa laaaa laaaaahh,
deee deeee de de de deeeeeeeeeeee.

...and the last verse being...

(LOUDLY) DAH DAH DAH-DAH-DAH
DAH DAH-DAH-DAH-DA-HAAAAAA
Aaaaaaaahhhhh,
Laaaa laaaaaaaahhhh,
Laaaa-laaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhh.

As a previous poster said, it was originally in English and then translated into Irish. And I can't believe that you haven't been taught this if you went to school in Ireland. Can you imagine what would happen to a yank who didn't know the words to their God-awful anthem?