Early tournament strategy

pokypoky

I've at last been motivated to post something by an argument i had just now with another boardsie. I won't name and shame. Yet. My question to you experts is as follows... In the early stages of a tournament do u think it is right to pass up small edges (i mean 1-2%) against weaker players (lets presume you know they are weaker) with a view to saving chips for later situations where your edge may be greater? Do you think it is correct strategy to race off chips when the blinds are low and there is no pressure from players that you feel are weaker than you? This relates purely to early on in tournaments. Nothing to do with cash games.

cardshark202

Its never right because you can't guarantee there will be a greater edge. Passing up +EV situations is almost never right (Obviously the only times you do are in satellite situations near the bubble).

EDIT: Antesup have a beginners forum by the way.

Ste05

Well I would pass a tiny edge like 1-2% early against weak opposition.

If they really are weak opposition you are nearly guaranteed to get much better spots later. I know there has been discussion on 2+2 and here about similar situations and Phil Laak's (I think) blog, (I could be way off) but I think that one involved AA early in a big tourney, maybe not what you're talking about). But in general I don't like to get too busy early in a tourney, it might just be my style and I'm no MTT expert, (nor cash/STT for that matter) but I wouldn't be racing for all my chips with weaker opposition when there's no need.

However it would depend on how you can adequately define this tiny edge against poor opposition

EDIT: just read cardshark's reply, I would agree that there's no guarantee you'll get better spots later, but I would certainly say there will more than likely be better spots later, if not an almost guarantee.....

bohsman

I dont like to commit all my chips at any time in a tournament without the stonecold nuts but yes Im perfectly happy to get it in with QQ against AK at any stage.

fuzzbox

This depends on the tournament itself.

If it is a short tourney with hardly any chips, then racing early becomes useful because you need chips to win, and racing is a good way to get em (or go bust trying).

If it is a long tourney, then you would prefer not to race, unless you are consistently being given no choice, at which point you have to race.

DapperGent

I have trouble with the idea that you know your edge is that small. In the simplest situation how do you know a weak player asking you for all your chips while you have AKo actually has a pair rather than AQ, AJ, AT which you have in deep trouble? You don't simply.

If I know a player is crap and I know I'm ahead by the tiniest of margins and I don't have any significant amount of chips commited at this point then I would consider folding. It's never come up though.

fuzzbox

If you have 88, and somebody has raised pf.
If you know that they are a calling station, and are certainly going to call you if they have overcards, then it might be better to see a flop before committing, rather than pushing now.

You are passing up a small preflop edge, in the hope of either generating a bigger postflop edge, or passing a dangerous flop.

If, on the other hand, you know that your opponent can lay down something like KT or KJ (hands you would prefer them to fold), then you can push as you would have a lot of Fold Equity.

Gholimoli

DapperGent wrote:

I have trouble with the idea that you know your edge is that small. In the simplest situation how do you know a weak player asking you for all your chips while you have AKo actually has a pair rather than AQ, AJ, AT which you have in deep trouble? You don't simply.

If I know a player is crap and I know I'm ahead by the tiniest of margins and I don't have any significant amount of chips commited at this point then I would consider folding. It's never come up though.

i agree,
how can you tell that you have a 1%-2% edge and that you can pass.
this is all theory and the point behind is dont chace or try to bluff an opponent off a pot when there is no need.or dont go looking for action with your 66 early in a tourny if you think your better than most of people in the field.

DeVore

what gholimoli and dappergent said.

If I were sure I was ahead by only 1-2% I would pass it up (presuming I havent committed chips to the pot). Like Oscar the best tournies are when I rarely or never put all my chips at risk. I would try to find a better spot later on. Why would I want to take a coin flip preflop with a moron. I'd be reducing myself to his skill level and equalising our tournament chances.

DeV

BigDragon

Goal No.1: Make the money

Goal No.2: Make the FT

Goal No.3: Win

Theres is no way you can repeatedly achieve Goal No.1 by taking 1/2% chances early in a tournament. Ask any good player, see cheap flops and have the nuts! Turbo tournies excluded.

Mid to late tournament strategies are, of course, a different kettle of squid.

Culchie

BigDragon wrote:

Goal No.1: Make the money

Goal No.2: Make the FT

Goal No.3: Win

Theres is no way you can repeatedly achieve Goal No.1 by taking 1/2% chances early in a tournament. Ask any good player, see cheap flops and have the nuts! Turbo tournies excluded.

Mid to late tournament strategies are, of course, a different kettle of squid.

This is pretty much my thinking as well, you can't win a tournament early on, you can only lose it.
When down to 'squeaky bum time' when we are just short of the money, my thinking progresses to

"OK, I'm nearly in the money, but I want to give myself as good a chance as possible to make final table" ... and when 2 or 3 short of final table, again I'm trying to have as many chips as possible on that final table to give me the best chance to win.
Profiling of your opponents is very important at this I find.

I guess I'm trying to say it's about setting targets, but when you've nearly acheived them, keep pushing yourself to improve on them again, don't rest on your laurels, .. get greedy.

slegs

BigDragon wrote:

Goal No.1: Make the money

Goal No.2: Make the FT

Goal No.3: Win

Theres is no way you can repeatedly achieve Goal No.1 by taking 1/2% chances early in a tournament. Ask any good player, see cheap flops and have the nuts! Turbo tournies excluded.

Mid to late tournament strategies are, of course, a different kettle of squid.

I agree 100% with this...imo (and mostly in regard to large tournaments) early tournament play is about avoiding trouble and playing the nuts (with the odd steal thrown in for table image)...if you think you are 1-2% ahead (and how would you know anyway) then imo this is not enough for large calls/raises

later on this all change...goals 2 and 3 are where individual styles shine

dinjo99

bohsman wrote:

I dont like to commit all my chips at any time in a tournament without the stonecold nuts but yes Im perfectly happy to get it in with QQ against AK at any stage.

Oscar, would you really call for 10k all-in with qq after seeing your opponents AK in the first hand of next Summer's wsop main event. i think not!

cardshark202

dinjo99 wrote:

Oscar, would you really call for 10k all-in with qq after seeing your opponents AK in the first hand of next Summer's wsop main event. i think not!

I would.

DapperGent

dinjo99 wrote:

Oscar, would you really call for 10k all-in with qq after seeing your opponents AK in the first hand of next Summer's wsop main event. i think not!

I wouldn't because for the simple fact (that Marq mentioned in the thread on this) if the opponent directly to my right was a) Not protecting his hand and b) Dumb enough to push there, I can definately find a better spot.

The most important thing about that whole thought experiment is that c) It will never happen.

The C Kid

This topic reoccurs every couple of months on the various message boards, one of the most interesting articles on the subject is this:

http://www.cardplayer.com/poker_magazine/archives/?a_id=15093

cardshark202

DapperGent wrote:

I wouldn't because for the simple fact (that Marq mentioned in the thread on this) if the opponent directly to my right was a) Not protecting his hand and b) Dumb enough to push there, I can definately find a better spot.

The most important thing about that whole thought experiment is that c) It will never happen.

You can't guarantee to find a better spot. You fold here and then you're moved to another table with a few strong big-stacked aggressive players and now you wish you just had those extra chips. If only you'd called when you were ahead there and not folded that +EV situation....

bohsman

dinjo99 wrote:

Oscar, would you really call for 10k all-in with qq after seeing your opponents AK in the first hand of next Summer's wsop main event. i think not!

I would rather get knocked out first hand than play for 27 hours and finish 100 outside the money.

pokypoky

ok cardshark is the GAMBLER i had this argument with...if ever there was a candidate for one player russian roulette. Thinking purely in terms of the ev of each individual hand early on in a torunament is, I feel, blinkered logic.

What I was saying was that in some cases it seems right to pass up opportunities where u have a slight edge against weaker players where this edge could cost you alot of chips that could be invested later on in a tournament where u are almost guaranteed as ste says to be presented with greater edges. Thanks for your thoughts thought they're all really helpful

Imposter

Just thinking out loud here about early game strategy moreso that the 1-2% advantage!

If you guys are all playing so tight in the early rounds then surely the only big stacks will be the unpredictable LAGs who've knocked all those other unpredictable LAGs out!

And then later in the tournament usually those that are in with a shout are generally the ones that were on the leaderboard all through with a few exceptions. Something doesn't add up there!

At some stage relatively early in the tournament you've got to take some risks if you've not been getting cards (which will be the case for most people). Otherwise you are going to be struggling come bubble time and very unlikely to win big in the tournament.

Culchie

Imposter wrote:

Just thinking out loud here about early game strategy moreso that the 1-2% advantage!

If you guys are all playing so tight in the early rounds then surely the only big stacks will be the unpredictable LAGs who've knocked all those other unpredictable LAGs out!

And then later in the tournament usually those that are in with a shout are generally the ones that were on the leaderboard all through with a few exceptions. Something doesn't add up there!

At some stage relatively early in the tournament you've got to take some risks if you've not been getting cards (which will be the case for most people). Otherwise you are going to be struggling come bubble time and very unlikely to win big in the tournament.

I wouldn't say tight, I think position is really important....avoid digging holes that are difficult to get out of.

fixer

the classic Fox vs Farmer article from rec.gambling.poker from years ago seems appropriate to bring up now. http://www.playwinningpoker.com/articles/03/06.html

BigDragon

#1: Tighten up- Early on in tournaments, you really should play tight. There is really just no point in being loose. Lets say you call in late position with 9-7 suited with the blinds at 5-10. The flop comes 9-7-J. You bet, get called…turn is a 2. You bet, the other guy folds and you win 60 chips. WHO CARES? You start with 1500 or 2500, 60 means nothing!! And sometimes, you’re going to bust when that other guy hits his trip deuces on the turn! At the beginning stage of the tourneys, the chips you DON’T lose are worth more than the small amount of chips you could win. Also, build a pot with your big hands. If you pick up KK when the blinds are 5-10, make it 50 to go. Someone with A-Q, or lower pocket pairs is probably going to call you. Now you have a pot worth playing for.



#2: Make Good Laydowns- I don’t mind taking stabs here and there, but don’t be afraid to laydown if you think you are beat. If you have KK and the flop is A-5-9 and you bet and someone raises…lay it down. I know its hard, but lay it down. Do NOT play trouble hands like A-9, K-10 or the like, fold those hands preflop. Another big point here is not to overvalue top pair. Say you have A-10 in the BB and the flop comes 10-5-7 and you bet the pot. Your bet gets raised or maybe there is even a reraise…your top pair is likely no good, dump it. Also, youre gut will tell you a lot. We have all just “felt like we’re beat” even though we have a good hand. If you get that feeling, fold. You’ll suprize yourself with how many times you are right. Remember, you WILL get enough good hands in the first hour of an average tourney to accumulate a good stack without playing trouble hands.



#3: Have Position- One of the most undervalued factors in the game, is position. Watch some of the top 10 players, see when they bluff, see when they play questionable hands it is almost always when they have position. If I get hands like 22-88 or AJ when I am in early or middle position, 90% of the time I fold them. There are too many people left to act behind me. Also, don’t forget, if you are in late position and there are 3 or 4 limpers, a 3xBB raise isn’t likely to win you the pot. Say you pick up QQ on the button, but there are 4 limpers before you. The blinds are 20/40. 120 is probably going to get you one or 2 callers. Try making it 200 to go, likely you will win the pot right there or be up against one caller. If you do get a caller, you have position. You have the ability to see what that player does before you put any more money into the pot. That is a HUGE advantage…use it!



#4: Learn When to Raise- A good example is with something like J-10 suited. If I am on the button or the cutoff and it is folded around to me, I will often raise with J-10 suited. However, I would never call a raise with those cards. Learning when to raise and when to call a raise is a very important part of tournament strategy. You’ve all heard this: “You need a stronger hand to call a raise than you do to make a raise”. But many of us don’t follow that mantra. Also, unless you have a very good hand, most of your raises will be from positions 7-9. Poker should (to an extent) be boring. You should be folding most of the hands you get.



#5: Find a Mentor- I know this is not as easy as it sounds and I have been very lucky in this regard. Find someone who is a winning player, someone who’s game you respect. And flat out, just ask them. “Hey, would you be willing to help me with my game?” Many players, especially the good ones, are very busy. So don’t be disheartened or take it personally if they say no. I asked 6 people and only got 2 responses. But you will find someone, there are a LOT of good players on this site.