Interesting spot, deep PLO

fuzzbox

Ok guys, this one is for all you omaha lovers out-there.

Relevant stacks
You have 4.2k
Button has 5k

PLO 10/20 full ring
You are in LMP with QhTc9c8h

Preflop
Couple of limpers to you and you decide to just limp, another limper and then the button pots it (130). You figure that you will fold if nobody else plays, but then 2 other players join in, and you figure you should call for the value.

Flop (550 or so)
Kh Jh 5c
Well that just tears it, checked to you, and you check, button pots it, and its folded back to you ... whats your plan for the hand?

careca

I would probably call here and reevaluate on the turn. its quite possible the other player has AAxx here and if he has the Ax of hearts, you're in a world of pain as he has you drawing dead to the flush and has a lot of your outs for the str8.

A reraise might get him to drop AAxx with no flush draw, but I don't think its worth it.

This might be passive play, but so be it.

fixer

This is the sort of hand I will always call...and after running some simulations, I can see one of my big leaks! You're only ahead against a set, bare Aces, or similar draw without the flush draw, so unless you can confidently put the button on a very limited range here, I'd have to say fold.

As I said, my first instinct was to call.

fuzzbox

Hehe, you say Im only ahead of
- SET
- AAxx
- similar draw with no nut flush

What am I behind?

cardshark202

fuzzbox wrote:

Hehe, you say Im only ahead of
- SET
- AAxx
- similar draw with no nut flush

What am I behind?

Yeah I was thinking that lol.

I would be potting this flop. Its a pretty good flop for your holding. There are very few hands villian could have that leave you in bad shape and a lot of hands he could have that put you in great shape. I like the check-raise here.

fixer

AA with the nut flush. AAQT. Nut flush with any str8 draw.

I also didn't take into account a set that has some of your str8 cards (KKT9), which makes you a dog there too.

fuzzbox

Well maybe it wasnt that interesting after all.

I check/raised pot (2k), villain called.
An offsuit 2 came on the turn, I pushed for 2k and villain called with KsKd5s7s, and a Th came on the river.

I think he will fold all 2-pair hands to the check/raise, and he will fold naked AAxx to the check/raise also.
I am trying to get him to laydown JJ and 55 also (but he probably doesnt have 55).

The problem is trying to get him to lay down the nut-flush draw (if he has it). Especialy AAxx with the nut flush draw. If he calls the flop with that, then he *should* lay down to the turn bet because he is not getting sufficient odds .... but people play strange.

Im not sure that my play is the best here, but it cant be that bad in relation to his likely holdings, and I can surely get him to fold some made hands and pick up the 1k for free.

If anybody else had called his bet, then I would have folded, as a bet and a call would normally mean that the nut-flush draw was out there. It was only because we were 1v1 that I took a gamble.

careca

wp.

serious question. did you consider all this at the time, or was it afterwards when you had more time to analyse the hand.

the problem I see with this is that lots of players would also call all the bets (I know you were the agressor in this case) because its a lovely flop for them, but they are effectively still drawing and could be in serious trouble. Only after they know the results do they try to justify their play.

careca

one other question. when you reraised on the flop, if he had come back over the top for all his stack, would you have called ?

sorry for hogging the thread

fuzzbox

careca wrote:

wp.

serious question. did you consider all this at the time, or was it afterwards when you had more time to analyse the hand.

the problem I see with this is that lots of players would also call all the bets (I know you were the agressor in this case) because its a lovely flop for them, but they are effectively still drawing and could be in serious trouble. Only after they know the results do they try to justify their play.

I thought of this at the time.

Its important that we are fairly deep (I have 200BBs and he has me covered). I play pretty tight in that game, so my check/raise has some teeth.

My opponent played very well post flop, but I dont like his pot raise preflop, his hand is not that good.

fuzzbox

careca wrote:

one other question. when you reraised on the flop, if he had come back over the top for all his stack, would you have called ?

sorry for hogging the thread

Once I check/raise I am committed for my stack.

fixer

What I find weird (fascinating?) is the circular nature of this particular hand. I wonder if it's a common thing in Omaha hands?

Add in a 3rd hypothetical hand, AA w/nut flush.

Your hand is favorite against KKxx
AAxx nut flush is favorite over your hand.
KKxx is favorite against AAxx nut flush

Result

http://twodimes.net/h/?z=1513108
pokenum -o ks kd 5s 7s - qh tc 9c 8h -- kh jh 5c
Omaha Hi: 820 enumerated boards containing 5c Kh Jh
cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
Ks 7s 5s Kd 365 44.51 455 55.49 0 0.00 0.445
Tc 9c Qh 8h 455 55.49 365 44.51 0 0.00 0.555


Result

http://twodimes.net/h/?z=1513111
pokenum -o ah ac 2h 3c - qh tc 9c 8h -- kh jh 5c
Omaha Hi: 820 enumerated boards containing 5c Kh Jh
cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
Ac 3c Ah 2h 563 68.66 257 31.34 0 0.00 0.687
Tc 9c Qh 8h 257 31.34 563 68.66 0 0.00 0.313


Result

http://twodimes.net/h/?z=1513112
pokenum -o ah ac 2h 3c - ks kd 5s 7s -- kh jh 5c
Omaha Hi: 820 enumerated boards containing 5c Kh Jh
cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
Ac 3c Ah 2h 333 40.61 487 59.39 0 0.00 0.406
Ks 7s 5s Kd 487 59.39 333 40.61 0 0.00 0.594

speedytom

What site you playing on Fuzz?Party Poker? You doing good?

jtsuited

you must have an obscenely huge bankroll to be playing at this level.

bohsman

speedytom wrote:

What site you playing on Fuzz?Party Poker? You doing good?

Any truth in the rumour that its actually you ripping Laddies apart at the moment Speedy?

fuzzbox

speedytom wrote:

What site you playing on Fuzz?Party Poker? You doing good?

Yeah party, yeah Im doing ok.
I would be doing a lot better were it not for a few evil outdraws ... but thats omaha for ya.

Actually this particular hand - the villain was used a full name as his sign on (like BillSmith or JohnBloggs). I recently watched a TV WPT final table (from Paris), and a guy with his name was on the final table of the NLHE event. It must be the same guy .... he looked a little poorer too.

Marq

I would only check the flop with the intention of check-raising. If the button is prone to cont. bets I would play as you did, but otherwise I'll lead that flop and push the turn unless the board pairs.

fuzzbox

Marq wrote:

I would only check the flop with the intention of check-raising. If the button is prone to cont. bets I would play as you did, but otherwise I'll lead that flop and push the turn unless the board pairs.

Ok - this is a valid line.
The reasons I did not do this are:

1. I wanted to get away cheap if two players were contesting the pot, as then I would be pretty sure that the nut-flush draw was out there, and I would pass
2. I cannot push the turn, if I lead the flop (and only one player calls). Stacks are too deep
3. I much prefer it if villain folds, and lets me have the 1k in the middle, rather than calls and we play out a 50/50 shot.

speedytom

You gone full pro now fuzz? And bohsman thats not me playing 25-50 plo on laddies which everyone seems to think.

fuzzbox

speedytom wrote:

You gone full pro now fuzz?

No still just playing for "fun". Maybe next year if I have collected a big enough roll.

Why? Are you a pro?

speedytom

try to be