Penalty Points - 3.25 years on

Victor

Introduction of penalty points: 31 October 2002

Initial reduction in deaths: 43% [1]

Subsequent increase: 81% [2]

Drivers with penalty points (December 2005) 291,800

Drivers disqualified under penalty points scheme (December 2005): 19

Deaths (31 October 2002 - 31 January 2006): 1,194 [3]


[1] November 2002 - January 2003, compared to November 2001 - January 2002
[2] November 2005 - January 2006, compared to November 2002 - January 2003
[3] http://www.garda.ie/angarda/statistics98/nroadstats.html

is_that_so

Victor wrote:

Introduction of penalty points: 31 October 2002

Initial reduction in deaths: 43% [1]

Subsequent increase: 81% [2]

Drivers with penalty points (December 2005) 291,800

Drivers disqualified under penalty points scheme (December 2005): 19

Deaths (31 October 2002 - 31 January 2006): 1,194 [3]


[1] November 2002 - January 2003, compared to November 2001 - January 2002
[2] November 2005 - January 2006, compared to November 2002 - January 2003
[3] http://www.garda.ie/angarda/statistics98/nroadstats.html

How much is that in real money ?

Fabritzo

Apparently it costs a million quid a person, what's the deal with the driving test...I've been waiting since late 2004 for mine, and the news tells me it's because of a trade union dispute. You're taking your life in your hands when driving at the best of times, Ireland is a special case though.

spockety

Victor wrote:

Introduction of penalty points: 31 October 2002

Initial reduction in deaths: 43% [1]

Subsequent increase: 81% [2]

Drivers with penalty points (December 2005) 291,800

Drivers disqualified under penalty points scheme (December 2005): 19

Deaths (31 October 2002 - 31 January 2006): 1,194 [3]


[1] November 2002 - January 2003, compared to November 2001 - January 2002
[2] November 2005 - January 2006, compared to November 2002 - January 2003
[3] http://www.garda.ie/angarda/statistics98/nroadstats.html

Increase in the number of drivers and/or vehicles on the road in that time?

MorningStar

spockety wrote:

Increase in the number of drivers and/or vehicles on the road in that time?

I am wondering adbout the figures too.

82% or what? Is that a % increase on the year before?

I used to think some people just used figures to lie but most seem just not to understand them. How about a % of the people who died versus the number of cars on the road. That might be a bit more useful

robfitz

spockety wrote:

Increase in the number of drivers and/or vehicles on the road in that time?

[url=http://www.nra.ie/PublicationsResources/DownloadableDocumentation/RoadSafety/file,1948,en.pdf]NRA, Road Collision Facts 2004 (2005)[/url]
Collisions Classified by Type and Vechicles Licensed
Collision Type        1989    1990    1991    1992    1993    1994    1995    1996    1997    1998    1999    2000    2001    2002    2003    2004
Fatal                  430     432     402     384     394     371     405     415     424     408     374     362     360     346     301     334
Injury               5,401   5,635   6,092   6,293   5,982   6,239   7,712   8,271   8,072   7,831   7,433   7,395   6,549   6,279   5,684   5,447
Material Damage     13,507  13,859  16,095  15,997  15,455  16,127  19,825  21,662  22,364  23,604  24,995  25,066  21,191  17,915  17,930  16,525
TOTAL               19,338  19,926  22,589  22,674  21,831  22,737  27,942  30,348  30,860  31,843  32,802  32,823  28,100  24,540  23,915  22,306
Vechicles Licenced   1,020   1,054   1,060   1,260   1,151   1,200   1,262   1,338   1,432   1,512   1,608   1,684   1,770   1,850   1,937   2,036
(thousands)

Environ, 2004 - Vehicle & Driver Statistics

dts

These figures would sugest that thing are getting better?

MorningStar

dts wrote:

These figures would sugest that thing are getting better?

Yes they do so the question is why are we being told it is getting worse by the media? In factor maybe Victor can let us know why he chose the particular figures he did to illiustrate his point and yet make no comment.

I guess it could be ignorance of what the figures mean. I had somebody on boards go on about the large profits indicate a rip off by insurance companies but would not consider larger number of people being insured as a valid reason. I guess Victor might have a similar bias about the penalty point system.

dts

But in the three years I have been here I don’t see anything that has been done to improve things.
I would have a safer commute if I used the new M4 but due to the toll I like most other people still use the back roads.
From the people I talk to the points system couldn’t have an effect as most people are aware of the fact that to get caught doing any of the offenses is so unlikely it’s not worth worrying about.
It has been show in the UK that when they had the big drink driving campaign, name and shame the amount of drink driving offences went down. Now because speeding has become the center of attention drink driving is on its way back up. The only way to stop people breaking the law is to enforce the law.
So why have those figures come down?

masterK

The massive increases in the number of vehicles could actually have resulted in a decline in accidents due to traffic congestion which results in people having to
drive slower especially in major population centres.

Drink Driving is still a major issue today, however I suspect it is nowhere near as widespread as it was 20 years ago.

MorningStar

masterK wrote:

The massive increases in the number of vehicles could actually have resulted in a decline in accidents due to traffic congestion which results in people having to
drive slower especially in major population centres.

I doubt congestion is that bad all over the country and considering the majority of deaths are at night on country roads it is unlikely to be congestion. The increase in material damage is more likely to be the cause of congestion.

Not saying it isn't true just an unlikely reason considering where the deaths occur in this country.

Cuauhtemoc

These figures would sugest that thing are getting better?

I'd be interested to see a further breakdown of those figures to see how many are happening on country roads/at night(which just from memory a lot are), what percentage were drink driving/speeding/provisional drivers etc.

Anywhere i could find those?

robfitz

Cuauhtemoc wrote:

Anywhere i could find those?

National Roads Authority, Road Collision Facts 1996 to 2004

mike65

Whether things are getting better pro capita is frankly missing the point.

The best one could say is that 600 people might have died last year. 400 is still 400 too many and happening in the face of something near disinterest from the authorities.

Mike.

Mucco

dts wrote:

These figures would sugest that thing are getting better?

Don't be fooled by the anomaly that is 2003

2004 334 deaths 2,036,000 cars
2005 399 deaths 2,239,600 cars ( don't know cars figure so guessed 2004+10%)

334/2.0360=164 deaths per million cars
399/2.2396=178

And aren't we doing well this year.

M

gurramok

Mucco wrote:

Don't be fooled by the anomaly that is 2003

2004 334 deaths 2,036,000 cars
2005 399 deaths 2,239,600 cars ( don't know cars figure so guessed 2004+10%)

334/2.0360=164 deaths per million cars
399/2.2396=178

And aren't we doing well this year.

M

2003 was a blip year in that introductory of penalty points affected the rate immediately.
A valid comparison should be made with previous years to see if its getting better which it seems to be.

Mucco

Sorry, I've messed up my figures there a bit. I've used the no. of fatal collisions for 2004 (334) instead of the number of fatalities (374).

So using by guess for car licenses for 2005, it seems things are getting better, if you consider an increases in fatalities of 7% from 2004 to 2005 better.

Capt'n Midnight

Firstly the increased number of cars has made Dublin and other urban areas safer a lot of the time due to the very low speed of most traffic during most journeys. You'd best check the stats for night / weekend rural deaths to see how things have changed.

As Victor has pointed out the number of drivers disqualified is about 1% of the number of deaths over the period. This is not quite the same as saying you are 100 times more likely to be killed by bad driving on the road than loose your license for bad driving.

The deal with the driving test is that nothing has changed since '79. Some people who wern't even born then will have their their 10 year licenses expire this year if they forget to renew.
Lots of hot air etc. and no proposal that will guarantee a test or ban, for the 10% of the population who are currently allowed to drive without passing a test, before we enter the next decade. :mad: :mad: :mad:

IMHO insurance companies should not be allowed to sell insurance to provisional drivers unless they are on the second provisional license. Since they are not allowed to drive on their own they should be named drivers on the policy of the person who they claim will teach them. Or in other words unless there is some pressure to force people to attempt the test and then it causes a political backlash then as far as I can see the current situation will continue for the foreseeable future.

_Kaiser_

Capt'n Midnight wrote:

IMHO insurance companies should not be allowed to sell insurance to provisional drivers unless they are on the second provisional license. Since they are not allowed to drive on their own they should be named drivers on the policy of the person who they claim will teach them. Or in other words unless there is some pressure to force people to attempt the test and then it causes a political backlash then as far as I can see the current situation will continue for the foreseeable future.

*yawn* Once again it's all the provisional driver's fault eh? :rolleyes:

The amount of stupid, dangerous, and inconsiderate-of-other-road-users driving I see every day (most of which have no L-plates in sight) makes me wonder where you get this idea that taking provisional drivers off the road will magically solve the problem??

How about regular re-testing of everyone on the road? How about this stupid backwards country just stops caving to unions and hires as many testers as are needed to clear the current backlog and KEEP it clear. We all know that public transport outside of the major cities is virtually non-existent from a practical usability standpoint (and even in the cities it's a joke! I know; it used to take me 3-4 hours and 4 buses every day just to get from Blanch to Coolock.. a journey that can be done in about 25-30 minutes by car - and that's without using the M50!) so the REALITY is that most people in these areas NEED their car, both to get to work, to school, the nearest shop etc.

I applied for my test the same week I got my provisional last April. I'm STILL waiting, and probably will be for a while yet. I shouldn't have to try "tricks" like getting letters from my employer to jump the queue. The maximum anyone is waiting for a test should be 2 weeks. (Incidentially, I'd my test tomorrow if I could).

Once (more accurately an unlikely if) this ever happens, THEN you can complain about provisional drivers and people not doing the test.

Until then, a lot of people here need to get over this holier-than-thou attitude they seem to have :mad:

Capt'n Midnight

My point about provisional drivers is related to enforcement. Most people in this country have driven illegally for extended periods of time while waiting for their tests. cf. the broken window / zero tolerance mindsets.

There will be a change in driver behaviour when the points come in. Then a few months later everyone will realise it's pretty much back to normal apart from a selected few revenue generating locations.

Why are the numbers dying on our roads going UP when the trend in the rest of Europe is DOWN , remembering that most of Irish journies are at a lower speed in congestion or on safer motorways than ever before !

While the number of cars has doubled since '89, remember that before the scrappage scheme the AVERAGE car was 8 years old. And few had the "safety" (for occupants only) devices that more recent cars have like. And seat belt usage has gone up enormously since then too.


As for regular re-testing of all road users, first test the provisional drivers, then test those who got an amnesty in '79, then test those who just bought their licences. Once everyone has passed the test ONCE, then perhaps bring in a 10 year cycle.

http://oasis.gov.ie/transport/motoring/driving_test.html
n 2004 a total of 153983 driving tests were conducted throughout Ireland.
http://www.drivingtest.ie/drivingtest/HTMLContent/passrates.html
pass rate is about 55% - so maybe 85,000 pases per year. If they stop handing out provisional licenses it would at the current rate take 5 years to process the backlog, before they get to those who were granted full licenses without having done a test.

The only reason the aveage waiting time is as LOW as 43 Weeks is that a lot of people don't bother doing the test preferring to self-certify. This IHMO is a very bad thing because drivers learn that they can self-certify on most things.
Self-Certification is not good for safety. Look at drink driving or speeding. Driver testing/training is what is needed rather than lip service and promising to do something about waiting lists.

Enforcement is what is needed, not more laws for people to ignore.

MorningStar

Mucco wrote:

2005 399 deaths 2,239,600 cars ( don't know cars figure so guessed 2004+10%)

Last year we broke the previous record for new cars beating the previous year 1999. Can't quite recall but it is the largest increase of cars on the road in the countries history.
I would hazzard a lot more cars will be sold this the the first year of the SSIAs

Capt'n Midnight wrote:

Firstly the increased number of cars has made Dublin and other urban areas safer a lot of the time due to the very low speed of most traffic during most journeys. You'd best check the stats for night / weekend rural deaths to see how things have changed.

Can point out that is just your opinion. As many deaths on the roads seem to be at night or generally after dark. It has commonly been said that most people get in accidents on their regular routes due to over familiarity.
$ tons of metal driven at 20mph is a bloody dangerous thing one way or the other.

It's nicve you feel strongly about the subject but it is kind of just your opinion. It's not really based on any logic or study of the subject. AS accidents have increased you have no basis to beleive traffic congestion makes it safer it's just your view. It is certainly known however that threat of being caught makes people stop illegal acts. THe punishment doesn't matter that mush if you don't think you will be caught.

According to the cops speed, alchol/drugs and youth are the biggest causes.