You Can't Be Sick!

Kintarō Hattori

My GF started working in Dunnes Stores in the last few weeks. It was a stressful while, moving from her current job, having to adjust to shift work and so on. Also at the time, I had the flu. After having been there for about two weeks she developed a really nasty cough, almost comparable to the whooping cough I've had twice in my life.
I convinced her to go to the doctor and see what was causing the cough as it was keeping her awake at night. It seems she had some kind of throat infection and he ended up prescribing her what I believe are pretty strong antibiotics: Augmentin Duo. He also told her to take 3 days off of work to recover. She didn't want to take anytime off of work as she was there just two weeks or so and is on 6 months probation, but I told her she should as it would take longer for her to recover.

On her first day back after 3 days off she was called into the Personel Managers office and warned that she shouldn't have taken the time off, even though she had a note from the doctor stating that she had a throat infection, was on strong antibiotics, and that he had prescribed that she take three days off. She was also told to be wary of this for the future. (IE- Don't be sick again!)

Can they give her a warning like this even though she was clearly sick and had the evidence to back it up?

Karma

Don't think they can get away with that but they will try the usual middle management crap with new employees. is there a union there? Ring the CIC for real information, 1890 777121 (9-9, mon-fri) check www.oasis.gov.ie for local offices - one on O'Connell FYI. From there, to report the Personal manager to upper management and to get confirmation off thier actions against this presure on sick staff. They are a personal manager NOT A DOCTOR! (Spot my pet hate in office staff!) good luck with it.

seamus

There should be company policy with regards sick leave. Tell her to check it out. If she followed it, she can't be disciplined (though it's unlikely she'd be allowed file a grievance this early on and for a verbal warning). Personally if any Personell Manager took that attitude with me I'd tell them to shove it up their arse, if they weren't my direct boss. If they were my direct boss, I'd tell them to shove their job up their arse.

No job is worth that grief.

Kintarō Hattori

Thanks guys, I couldn't believe it myself, I was so shocked and angry. We could survive for a while on my wage if she was to quit, and I was seriously thinking about going down there tomorrow and giving the PM a piece of my mind.
It's only a temporary thing however, so she'll decide whether to suck it up and just carry on, or pack it in. I'm going to go through her handbook tonight with a fine tooth comb and see what it turns up.

Karma: excuse my ignorance, but what is CIC?

secret_squirrel

Its also worth bearing in mind that a companies liability insurance doesnt generally cover them if they let people who have been signed off come in a work.

Basically if an accident happens the employee can sue the ass off them.

Some companies actually require a note from your doc, revoking your sick status if you want to come back early.

Tell the HR mgr to stick that!

Karma

Would Chase it up with the CIC and if you had a friendly solictor, to offer advice to you... had a lot of hassle with a PM years ago(some deserved but some not) and put up with it. Never again. the CIC will help you a lot.

Litcagral

secret_squirrel wrote:

Its also worth bearing in mind that a companies liability insurance doesnt generally cover them if they let people who have been signed off come in a work.

Some companies actually require a note from your doc, revoking your sick status if you want to come back early.QUOTE]



The company would have to have accepted the sick certificate in the first place - I don't think that happened in this instance.

(They are not obliged to accept a sick cert. from an employee's doctor and can request that the employee see a doctor approved by them.)

Kintarō Hattori

Sorry Guys, what's the CIC? Just read her handbook, and it does not mention that she is not entitled to be off sick during her probation. It does not mention either that she needs to see a company approved doctor.

testicle

eo980 wrote:

Sorry Guys, what's the CIC? Just read her handbook, and it does not mention that she is not entitled to be off sick during her probation. It does not mention either that she needs to see a company approved doctor.

Are you sure it doesn't say that she isn't entitled to paid sick leaveduring probation?

Karma

Citizens Information centre relating to employment, tax, social welfare- your rights in relation to these matters and more.

Kintarō Hattori

testicle wrote:

Are you sure it doesn't say that she isn't entitled to paid sick leaveduring probation?

No, it mentions that for six months she'll be on probation, but it doesn't mention in the handbook that during this time she cannot have time off if she is sick.

Agent Smith

eo980, i work for dunnes, if you would like to ask me any questions, feel free to pm me,

WexCan

Did they actually give her a verbal/written worning? As in a formal warning? If they did then that's ridiculous, if not it's just an eejit of a manager.

Kintarō Hattori

I don't know for sure if it was formal, it was hard to get the full details, but she was warned not to be sick again during her probation. She was told she should be careful.

Thanks Agent Smith, I might just do that.

pepper

eo980 wrote:

My GF started working in Dunnes Stores in the last few weeks. It was a stressful while, moving from her current job, having to adjust to shift work and so on. Also at the time, I had the flu. After having been there for about two weeks she developed a really nasty cough, almost comparable to the whooping cough I've had twice in my life.
I convinced her to go to the doctor and see what was causing the cough as it was keeping her awake at night. It seems she had some kind of throat infection and he ended up prescribing her what I believe are pretty strong antibiotics: Augmentin Duo. He also told her to take 3 days off of work to recover. She didn't want to take anytime off of work as she was there just two weeks or so and is on 6 months probation, but I told her she should as it would take longer for her to recover.

On her first day back after 3 days off she was called into the Personel Managers office and warned that she shouldn't have taken the time off, even though she had a note from the doctor stating that she had a throat infection, was on strong antibiotics, and that he had prescribed that she take three days off. She was also told to be wary of this for the future. (IE- Don't be sick again!)

Can they give her a warning like this even though she was clearly sick and had the evidence to back it up?

They can- she was lucky- the SAME thing happened me only i was at the place two months and I got Cistisis(kidney infection) was out for 3 days- I went back with the sick note- and they fired me

I went to Citizens Information and It turns out they are allowed do that

Thats just not right!!!

Our man in Havana

Until your there a year you have shag all rights.

Kintarō Hattori

That's disgraceful, I can't believe what I'm reading! Anywhoo I think I'll make a few discreet calls today and see what turns up.

WexCan

eo980 wrote:

That's disgraceful, I can't believe what I'm reading! Anywhoo I think I make a few discreet calls today and see what turns up.

In my experience, very few Irish employers have a clue when it comes to labour law.

seamus

Bond-007 wrote:

Until your there a year you have shag all rights.

While you're technically correct, there are a couple of things to keep in mind.
When you start work, your employer is obliged to issue you with a contract (within two months of starting), signed by him/her and give you a copy.
This contract must contain the conditions relating to incpacity due to sickness or injury. If it does not contain this provision, the contract is technically not legal.

They cannot deduct sick days from your annual leave. That's the law.

waz

Just a quick question?
Did your GF notify them that she would be out for the 3 days??
The company I work for and numerous others require, that you phone your line manager within 15 mins of your usual start time to inform them that you will not be in.
Also many companies dunnes included have a return to work interview process for employees who have been certified sick.
Maybe the lack of notification was the reason behind the warning

I have a friend who was working in M&S and apparently they're pretty similar. She knew someone else working there had been out sick for a few days, and when she came back they wouldn't offer her a permanent contract after the temporary one on that basis.
I guess that means I should never bother to apply for somewhere like that for a summer job or something, I'm always getting sick.

Kintarō Hattori

waz wrote:

Just a quick question?
Did your GF notify them that she would be out for the 3 days??
The company I work for and numerous others require, that you phone your line manager within 15 mins of your usual start time to inform them that you will not be in.
Also many companies dunnes included have a return to work interview process for employees who have been certified sick.
Maybe the lack of notification was the reason behind the warning

She went to the doctor on the Wednesday which was her day off. She also went into Dunnes that day to see about getting the three days off. She couldn't find her manager so spoke to the general manager, who didn't say she couldn't have those days off.

They were given advance notice, the day before!

WexCan

eo980 wrote:

She went to the doctor on the Wednesday which was her day off. She also went into Dunnes that day to see about getting the three days off. She couldn't find her manager so spoke to the general manager, who didn't say she couldn't have those days off.

They were given advance notice, the day before!

They should have said something then, then. Eejits.

Litcagral

eo980 wrote:

That's disgraceful, I can't believe what I'm reading! Anywhoo I think I'll make a few discreet calls today and see what turns up.

The Unfair Dismissals Act does not normally apply to employees with less than 365 days service.

The only exceptions to this are if the employee was dismissed;

(a) for trade union membership/activity
(b) for pregnancy and related matters
(c) for rights under minimum wage act
(d) for taking adoptive leave
(e) for taking 'carers' leave

Litcagral

seamus wrote:

When you start work, your employer is obliged to issue you with a contract (within two months of starting), signed by him/her and give you a copy.
This contract must contain the conditions relating to incpacity due to sickness or injury. If it does not contain this provision, the contract is technically not legal.QUOTE]


AFAIK Seamus, an employment contract is created by agreement between the employee and employer and may be made ORALLY or expressed in writing. Despite the percieved importance of the employment contract, the legal rules governing it's formation are vague and it is modified by considerable amounts of legislation and case law regardless of the wishes of the parties.

seamus

Litcagral wrote:

AFAIK Seamus, an employment contract is created by agreement between the employee and employer and may be made ORALLY or expressed in writing. Despite the percieved importance of the employment contract, the legal rules governing it's formation are vague and it is modified by considerable amounts of legislation and case law regardless of the wishes of the parties.

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/ZZA5Y1994S3.html

Now, unless that particular piece of legislation has changed in 12 years, I don't know.

(Although, reading that, the contract doesn't have to state the terms regarding time off for sickness, it only has to state them if there are any).

amen

She went to the doctor on the Wednesday which was her day off. She also went into Dunnes that day to see about getting the three days off. She couldn't find her manager so spoke to the general manager, who didn't say she couldn't have those days off.

They were given advance notice, the day before!

theres you problem right there
if I was the manager I would be thinking this girl asked for the days off was told no and then went to the doctor for a sick cert
she should haven't gone near work just went home after the doctor and rang later that day or the next

Kintarō Hattori

What problem? I don't see a problem? She never asked anyone for a few days off before going to the doctor. She went to the doctor to see what was wrong with her, and THEN went to work about it. I don't see how you could have come to that conclusion.

Litcagral

seamus wrote:

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/ZZA5Y1994S3.html

Now, unless that particular piece of legislation has changed in 12 years, I don't know.

(Although, reading that, the contract doesn't have to state the terms regarding time off for sickness, it only has to state them if there are any).

Interesting link Seamus,

I was at a trade union 'workshop' a few weeks ago and was informed that an employment contract need not necessarily be a written one. Your link appears to contradict that. I must make some enquiries.