Flop play Villain weak leads....

AmarilloFats

1/2 VC
2nd hand at the table..
I have 200 Villain has me covered.

I get KsQs on Button.
1 Limper in MP and I make it $8.
SB calls BB min raises to $16, MP calls, I call.

Flp comes Kh Js 7c (Pot ~ $64)

SB checks, BB makes it $18, MP folds...I ????????

Gholimoli

AmarilloFats wrote:

1/2 VC
2nd hand at the table..
I have 200 Villain has me covered.

I get KsQs on Button.
1 Limper in MP and I make it $8.
SB calls BB min raises to $16, MP calls, I call.

Flp comes Kh Js 7c (Pot ~ $64)

SB checks, BB makes it $18, MP folds...I ????????

smells of Aces played stupidly(but in vallians mind cleverly).
the odds are good but i dont like it since the MP has called as well.
MP could have KJ,JJ, QT is possible as well.
you have SB yet to act behind you as well so chances are your behind.
depends on the read you have on villian really but i would fold it.

cardshark202

Gholimoli wrote:

smells of Aces played stupidly(but in vallians mind cleverly).
the odds are good but i dont like it since the MP has called as well.
MP could have KJ,JJ, QT is possible as well.
you have SB yet to act behind you as well so chances are your behind.
depends on the read you have on villian really but i would fold it.

AmarilloFats wrote:

SB checks, BB makes it $18, MP folds...I ????????

This looks like a fold to me, you can't beat much that the villian could be holding, maybe QQ but unlikely. Unless he's likely to bet here with AJ.

fuzzbox

AmarilloFats wrote:

1/2 VC
2nd hand at the table..
I have 200 Villain has me covered.

I get KsQs on Button.
1 Limper in MP and I make it $8.
SB calls BB min raises to $16, MP calls, I call.

Flp comes Kh Js 7c (Pot ~ $64)

SB checks, BB makes it $18, MP folds...I ????????

Call and take a turn, be VERY careful.
Or raise, with the plan of not putting a single dime more in if you get called.

Fold to the minreraise from the BB in the first place !

AmarilloFats

fuzzbox wrote:

Call and take a turn, be VERY careful.
Or raise, with the plan of not putting a single dime more in if you get called.

Fold to the minreraise from the BB in the first place !

Are you kidding!! With position. in wot I know is gonna be a 4 way pot...$64 ($56 If I fold to the Minraise) in total. Fold for another $8...The pot is basically offering 7:1..Even equating in the posibilites of the blinds Reraisin or folding...
I'd prefer to eat ghee than fold to his min raise.!!

I agree that I should be very careful.
Folding to his 1/4 pot bet seems so scared..

Culchie

AmarilloFats wrote:

Are you kidding!! With position. in wot I know is gonna be a 4 way pot...$64 ($56 If I fold to the Minraise) in total. Fold for another $8...The pot is basically offering 7:1..Even equating in the posibilites of the blinds Reraisin or folding...
I'd prefer to eat ghee than fold to his min raise.!!

I agree that I should be very careful.
Folding to his 1/4 pot bet seems so scared..

What's wrong with eating ghee?

I agree with you though, but this is advice from someone advocating folding QQ to a min raise on the final table, sitting in the BB.

And I have a tight reputation !

fuzzbox

Culchie wrote:

What's wrong with eating ghee?

I agree with you though, but this is advice from someone advocating folding QQ to a min raise on the final table, sitting in the BB.

And I have a tight reputation !

I didnt actually fold that QQ hand thanks. I wanted to see if anybody could do it, or if I was, in fact, doomed.

No need to be so derisory.

Gholimoli

Culchie wrote:

What's wrong with eating ghee?

I agree with you though, but this is advice from someone advocating folding QQ to a min raise on the final table, sitting in the BB.

And I have a tight reputation !

i prefer eating ghee than having KK instead of your KQ there.

fuzzbox

AmarilloFats wrote:

Are you kidding!! With position. in wot I know is gonna be a 4 way pot...$64 ($56 If I fold to the Minraise) in total. Fold for another $8...The pot is basically offering 7:1..Even equating in the posibilites of the blinds Reraisin or folding...
I'd prefer to eat ghee than fold to his min raise.!!

I agree that I should be very careful.
Folding to his 1/4 pot bet seems so scared..

The reason you fold is because of this precise situation. Its all very nice if you hit a JsTs5c flop, but its not so nice if you hit a Kxx or a Qxx flop, and BB bets.
You save yourself the heartache. For the record I would call here in a flash with Axs, or any pocket pair (of course) or low suited connectors like 78s and 56s, much faster than KQ.

You try to avoid getting into tough spots with your likely totally dominated hand by folding preflop.

Calling aint bad, if you can get away when you hit a flop well.

Culchie

fuzzbox wrote:

I didnt actually fold that QQ hand thanks. I wanted to see if anybody could do it, or if I was, in fact, doomed.

No need to be so derisory.

I must have missed the follow up post, I'm sure you said the fold the hand.

I'm not intending to be derisory, but if someone who had advocated folding QQ on a final table in the BB with a min raise, and advocates folding to a min raise in a 4 way pot with top pair, then I think it's fair to point out to the OP, that the advice he's being given is from the same source, because that is relevant information.

fuzzbox

Culchie wrote:

I must have missed the follow up post, I'm sure you said the fold the hand.

I'm not intending to be derisory, but if someone who had advocated folding QQ on a final table in the BB with a min raise, and advocates folding to a min raise in a 4 way pot with top pair, then I think it's fair to point out to the OP, that the advice he's being given is from the same source, because that is relevant information.

I am not advocating folding a minraise with top pair, I am suggesting that folding preflop, is worth considering. You are likely dominated, and if you flop top pair, it probably wont be good, and you will often blow off some money trying to figure out if its good or not.

If you always jump into a situation with both feet first, then you will often miss the nuances of what is being said. Poker is a difficult game, but its even more difficult if you consistently put yourself into tough situations.

I have seen various posters on this board suggest to make some very dodgy plays, usually with the quote "if he has a better hand, then good luck to him". Often this occurs when somebody hits open trips on the board ... so if the board is 774, and you have 73 that you should always get all your chips in.
This is, in fact, not a clever thing to do against any player who is any good.

This is a similar situation, you have KQs, and you have been MIN reraised from the BLINDS. Villain might as well just turn his hand face up. You do not have very good expectation in this hand. Your flush draw is not the nut draw, and you are likely against AA/KK/AK/QQ, all of which put you in bad shape postflop and set you up to lose a bunch of chips.

You can avoid this bad situation, by folding preflop and waiting for a better spot.

In this hand, I would not be very surprised to see villain flop over KK in the end.

AmarilloFats

Hi FB.
If I don't raise with KQs on the button with 1 limper, in a shorthanded game...well my PFR(pre flo-p raise) would be too low, maybe less than 5%.
so i think it would be a mistake not to raise here with KQs on button...
and folding to a 1/4 pot with no reads on this player, i believe to be weak passive..

fuzzbox

Raising the button with this hand is great.
I would find it hard to fold too, but its probably the right move.

In the end, I probably call the flop, and see what happens on the turn. I dont know if I want to hit a Q though (or a K). In fact, I dont know what cards I like.

Ste05

I'd call here, easily enough. See what the turn brings and his reaction to same. Pray for 10s

Also I'd raise it up Pre-flop with this hand from the button. But if I had limped, I would probably have re-raise after this min-raise from the BB, just because I despise them and don't automatically think the default min-raise from the BB into a 4 way pot indicates a monster hand, for reasons I can explain later if needed.

fuzzbox

I agree that a minraise from the blinds is not always a monster.
However a min REraise usually is.

Well thats my experience anyway.

Ste05

Sorry, Ye I misread the OP, didn't see he raised to 8 from the button.

Hectorjelly

If you fold this preflop (to the reraise) then you shouldnt be playing this game. Its 8 more to you with implied odds of around 25-1, position and high suited connectors.

On the preflop note I think both raising and calling are fine.

You should call the flop and make a read on the turn, most opponents will leak information with the size of their bets. This is the most profitable way to play the hand from then on, as a raise will just let your opponent fold all hands that you beat, beginners and those not concerned with making money should raise the flop and fold to a reraise.

Hectorjelly

AmarilloFats wrote:

Hi FB.
If I don't raise with KQs on the button with 1 limper, in a shorthanded game...well my PFR(pre flo-p raise) would be too low, maybe less than 5%.
so i think it would be a mistake not to raise here with KQs on button...
and folding to a 1/4 pot with no reads on this player, i believe to be weak passive..

You shouldnt fold to a 1/4 pot bet because its weak passive, but because calling or raising will make you more money.

If you are concerned with your PFR being too low I would reduce (it should really be close to 0) your preflop open limps, and raise with a wider range of hands on the button/cuttoff in an unopened pot.

RoundTower

Hectorjelly wrote:

If you are concerned with your PFR being too low

This sounds like an excellent reason to not buy PokerTracker if it will make you worry that "my PFR% is 21.4% and Hectorjelly's is 28.6% so I must be doing something wrong."

Seriously I'm sure PokerTracker is a great tool but thinking like this isn't good.

fuzzbox

Hectorjelly wrote:

If you fold this preflop (to the reraise) then you shouldnt be playing this game.

I really wish that people would stop saying things like this (the you shouldnt be playing the game part).

KQ, facing a min-reraise from the blinds, has REVERSE implied odds, far more often than it has implied odds.

Calling is ok, but you would much rather hit a draw, than a pair. Even two-pair and you could get yourself destroyed. Folding preflop would avoid giving out these reverse implied odds for when you hit a pair (even though it is cheap to call). It cant be much of a mistake to fold this preflop, but if you call it, then you might make a big mistake postflop with this type of holding.

Saying that, you do have a nice draw, but you would rather have 7s8s as then hitting 87 on an 872 board, and you can be happy that your hand is likely to be good. However, hitting KQ on a KQ4 board .... you you can easily find yourself up against a set of KK or QQ.

PPP-Pit Boss

You have KQs you hit top pair with a good kicker. Here lies the problem what were you hoping to hit? The flush or straight? Villain has the power here he raised pre-flop and is dicatating the moves he is facing flat callers and is feeling pretty good about himself. Far as I can see MP is no longer in th pot. So you have hit top pair and the bet is not life changing.. I would call and see where you are at that point.

AmarilloFats

RoundTower wrote:

This sounds like an excellent reason to not buy PokerTracker if it will make you worry that "my PFR% is 21.4% and Hectorjelly's is 28.6% so I must be doing something wrong."

Seriously I'm sure PokerTracker is a great tool but thinking like this isn't good.

I was merely using a stat indicatively. I don't have PT set up on VC...
Fuzz, I trust myself. I trust that I can make good post flop decisions. I trust that I can play a good hand in position against what is usually a poor opponent. I don't sleep with a nightlight.

fuzzbox

So what did you do then?

Ste05

Ye it's an interesting hand, what did you do, could be another discussion on the turn play.....

AmarilloFats

I called his $18 the turn was a ten.. making the board K J x T.
He bet $18 again, I called the river was a 9 (can't remember if ther was a flush on or not) he bet $18 I made it $75 he calls..My hand is good...Don't know what he had..results pah..

PPP-Pit Boss

Very nice indeed! I am hardly suprised he didnt show. His bets verses the pot were very weak so well called!

fuzzbox

Nice turn and river alright. What do you do if you dont river the 9?

AmarilloFats

fuzzbox wrote:

Nice turn and river alright. What do you do if you dont river the 9?

Make sure it's an Ace..
It would depend, wot te card was and wot he did.. but if he bet $18 again I would probably pay him off, I mean call.

cardshark202

fuzzbox wrote:

Nice turn and river alright. What do you do if you dont river the 9?

Or if the turn is a queen..

AmarilloFats

cardshark202 wrote:

Or if the turn is a queen..

I raise pot. If he calls I pot most rivers. And beat his AK, AA...

fuzzbox

Why didnt you pot/push the river?

What do you think he had that calls your bet on a KJT9x board?

Hectorjelly

fuzzbox wrote:

I really wish that people would stop saying things like this (the you shouldnt be playing the game part).

I think that if you are the type of player who is going to end up in a big mess on a K or Q hi board against a player who is clearly representing AK,KK,AA then you shouldnt be playing $1 $2.