American Christians

R0ot

Okay the way most american christians are protreyed is that they are way over the top in alot of things they do that they claim they do it in Gods name. A few examples of this is
Jack Thompson (Christian against computer games) :mad:
Magret a woman that syas she's a christian on this show but her atitude definately doesnt protrey it.

Now I know for a fact that this is not the true image of an american christian, I know this because ive met about 100 of them and they are as normal as you or me or anyone, a few of them were a bit more outspoken than others but thats true with alot of christians i know. I really think there is a small minority of christians in america that ruin the image of the rest. Anyone else agree or disagree?

John Doe

I agree absolutely, when staying in Maryland our closest neighbours were American Christians who left a basket of food and the newspaper on our doorstep when we arrived (though we had never talked to them before), regularly invited us to their house and were generally the most pleasant couple you could hope to meet.
Not only that, but whenever we had a discussion with a religious theme they turned out to be very strong in their faith and yet very reasonable: basically they believed Jesus was reborn to save us all and that while here we should love and respect everyone. Not the stereotypical bible-basher viewpoint.

hairyheretic

America probably has no more loonies (be they religious, political or anything else) proportionally than any other place, but due to the sheer numbers in the country, there are that many more loonies in absolute terms, and hence a higher chance of coming across them (as they seeem to enjoy putting themselves forwards).

I've a good friend in the states who has a very strong faith, and its one of the things I admire about him. Its a central part of who he is. We've had some interesting theological dicsussions in the past.

Goodshape

hairyheretic wrote:

but due to the sheer numbers in the country, there are that many more loonies in absolute terms

The U.S.A. has a smaller population than the E.U., and much less than India and China. It also has a larger land mass than these places (only topped by Canada and Russia). So you're argument of more numbers = more loonies doesn't really hold up (sources : population, area).

It's just that for whatever reason we seem to spend more time concerning ourselves with the USA than any other country on the planet (including our own it often seems). I don't know why we can't just accept that they have they're own customs and culture(s) and get on with it.


That video of the American 'christain' is hilarious anyway. "They're all DORK SIDED!!!"

John Doe

I suppose the reason we can't get over the US is that they're so incredibly powerful, economically and culturally.:(

robindch

> they seeem to enjoy putting themselves forwards

I'll say. In the last two years, I have seen American christian fundamentalists:

• Working the orphanages in southern Ukraine, selling jesus (got stuck next to them in a restaurant in Odessa, from where I could hear their conversation; they didn't know I could speak english; this was freaky stuff).
• Occupying two-thirds of a Yak-40 from the Bahamas to Havana, where all were wearing tee-shirts proudly proclaiming alliegance to some church in Texas
• Pounding the hard, rough streets of San Pedro Sula in Honduras with bibles
• Doing door-to-door in Russia's St Petersburg (these could have been Mormons)

While I've been on the receiving end of eye-crossingly pompous lectures on the value of freedom (which we don't understand in Europe), the excellence of Mr Bush and Israel, together with the awfulness of atheism, Charles Darwin and muslims, while variously in New Zealand, the USA, Ireland, France, Germany, the UK. The worst was sharing a taxi with some christian nutjob from california, while going from Riyadh city center to the airport and I got to hear thirty minutes of his personal relationship with Jesus while my business partner giggled away in the front.

Unfortunately, these people make a beeline for me. God, I wish they wouldn't!

Asiaprod

Now I know for a fact that this is not the true image of an American Christian, I know this because ive met about 100 of them and they are as normal as you or me or anyone, a few of them were a bit more outspoken than others but thats true with alot of christians i know. I really think there is a small minority of christians in america that ruin the image of the rest. Anyone else agree or disagree?

I would tend to agree, I think there is a smaller number of these nutcase out there, but unfortunately they are making big waves due to the methods they employ. I can talk directly about Asia since I live here.
The largest impact of these Fundamentalist Evangelical what ever you want to call them came in the wake of last year Tsunami. In trooped these people with money and food which was distributed to the poor and needy at the expense of them selling their souls to the movement. The Buddhist priests in Asia up are up in arms as they cannot compete on a monetary level, and feel that their local culture is very much in jepody. The populace on their part did anything asked of them in order just to be able to provide a little shelter and food for their families.
Cambodia is also under attack, so much so that their have been actual arrests and expulsions from the country. China and South Korea have not escaped, as we discussed before, there are numerouse bands of these Fundamenatalist Evangelical what evers roaming arounds diguised as english teachers in Nepal, Tibet and throughout China.. North Korea has a particularly evil problem where groups of these people are involved in helping North Koreans escape, but of course, when they finally get to enter South Korea, tey stay in accomodation provided by our Fundamenatalist Evangelical brethren. This one I find particularly distastefull. In general, it is interesting to note that these people are targeting the very poor and depressed areas where there is a ready market for their brand of Christianity which is driven not by any religiouse need on, but by the sheer desperation of the people..
I think it is also important to say at this point that there are also a large number of what I call legitemate christian groups who are doing fine work in these countries.

samb

hairyheretic wrote:

America probably has no more loonies (be they religious, political or anything else) proportionally than any other place, but due to the sheer numbers in the country, there are that many more loonies in absolute terms, and hence a higher chance of coming across them (as they seeem to enjoy putting themselves forwards).
.

Depends on your definition of loonie. don't something like 40% of Americans believe that the world is younger than 10 thousand years? That is a very different planet to the one most of us live on.
I think that there are culture differences between all countries, and that to suggest that all will have the same number proportionally of loonies (or whatever, sound people) is misguided. Why would this be so?

But yes, before you say it, of course we shouldn't tar all with the same brush

sadie06

I agree that it is easy to think the majority of christian fundamentalists are Americans, but it's possibly just because they make the most noise. By far the most shocking noise being made by these people at the moment is by the anti-Darwin creationist movement trying to get Darwins theory of evolution taken off the school curriculum, and replaced by creationist fairytales. They have very intelligent radical scientists working on the case, and although they have lost a couple of battles, they continue to fight the war, and guess who's on their side...George W himself. George just loves a war......

However, this idea has quite a large following in Germany and France also, but as they probably aren't half as entertaining to watch we just don't get to see it.

Excelsior

Asiaprod, permit me to speak bluntly. I think your post on this thread is the most unreasonable thing I have ever read from you. It was very surprising because you are usually a bastion of moderation and because we have discussed this issue through pms. But here you are wildly attacking people on grounds that they could never have anticipated. You are attributing bad motives to people who have given up their lives in their home countries to travel to the deepest trouble spots in the world to try and help, as they see it.

The way that you refer to them as "fundamental evangelical whatevers" is deeply disrespectful. Fundamentally, I am disappointed because you seem so concerned with the fact that Buddhists are becoming Christians that you can't see that Buddhists can become Christians of their own free will and that the material aid they are offered may just be part of the whole experience of love and acceptance they have received from these people.

Asiaprod wrote:

Cambodia is also under attack, so much so that their have been actual arrests and expulsions from the country.

Under attack from people talking about a God that Cambodia insists doesn't exist. Asiaprod, come on, this is an example of a country crushing free speech and not a case of an "attack". Whether you agree with the missionaries or not, they should be free to proclaim their opinions without expulsion. It saddens me that you don't see this to be the case.

Asiaprod wrote:

China and South Korea have not escaped,

Oh come on! South Korea is 35% Christian! Per capita it is the largest missionary-sending country in the world. This is absolutely ungrounded prejudice you are extending here. It is very unlikely you. China is undergoing a massive revival as a government goes so far as to kill Chinese preachers and priests.

Asiaprpod wrote:

as we discussed before, there are numerouse bands of these Fundamenatalist Evangelical what evers roaming arounds diguised as english teachers in Nepal, Tibet and throughout China

This is also amazingly biased. When I worked as a computer programmer I was often asked by people about my faith. When I answered their questions do you think it would be fair of them to deem me as "disguised as a computer scientist"?

Asiaprod wrote:

North Korea has a particularly evil problem where groups of these people are involved in helping North Koreans escape, but of course, when they finally get to enter South Korea, tey stay in accomodation provided by our Fundamenatalist Evangelical brethren.

Oh no! People are liberated from the weirdest, poorest, most oppressed place in the world and brought back to the country where their extended family lives and where they can enjoy freedom. When they first arrive and are set up, the liberators let them stay in houses they own. That is a dreadful evil. Much more than the systematic indoctrination and starvation they "enjoyed" in their "native culture".

Asiaprod wrote:

This one I find particularly distastefull. In general, it is interesting to note that these people are targeting the very poor and depressed areas where there is a ready market for their brand of Christianity which is driven not by any religiouse need on, but by the sheer desperation of the people.

The people are too poor to know what they believe in? Come on! I think that you will find the "fundamentalist whatevers" are trying to live out this message from their Lord:

The Spirit of the Lord is on me,
because he has anointed me
to preach good news to the poor.
He has sent me to proclaim freedom for the prisoners
and recovery of sight for the blind,
to release the oppressed,
to proclaim the year of the Lord's favor

Asiaprod wrote:

I think it is also important to say at this point that there are also a large number of what I call legitemate christian groups who are doing fine work in these countries.

Crucially, do you think that the legitimate groups are those who are happy to give aid but won't share their faith?

Excelsior

American fundamentalism is a very well organised and funded grouping with a number of charismatic leaders. They are not the majority of Christians in America and they are not even the majority of evangelical Protestant Christians in America.

But the other Christians express their faith with a more quiet kind of humble service. They don't bang their chests as much.

I think the fundamentalism of Christian churches as evidenced by the video clip of that insane woman (who weirdly is a Catholic) is a cancer on the wider church in America. But I think that there are many people within these fundamentalist traditions who are sane and balanced and lovely.

The majority of American Christianity is not in this grouping and that needs to be remembered.

I'm a member of another forum which has a LOT of americans on it, so I've met all sorts on it. There are a lot of crazy christian fundies, as well as fluffy "wiccan" kids etc. There are also american christians on the site I have a lot of respect for, because they are very good at debating, know their stuff, and are very nice. Except when dealing with idiots.
The scary fundies I don't think I need to say much about.

I wouldn't judge all american christians by the nutty ones, not by a long shot, but there are a lot of them

Asiaprod

Excelsior wrote:

Asiaprod, permit me to speak bluntly. I think your post on this thread is the most unreasonable thing I have ever read from you.

Might I make a suggestion to you.
Go back and reread it and pay very special attention to the last sentence.

Then if you have not changed your view in this reply, I will deal with it here on the board.

Excelsior

I read it carefully in the first place. I fully acknowledge that you are not brandishing all missionaries as damaging and destructive. But the basis upon which you are assessing some as damaging is flawed. Particularly in the case of Cambodia where they are expelled under freedom of speech abuses, in South Korea where they are representing the fastest growing group in the country, in China where in the face of organised oppression the church is growing through the leadership of Chinese, not missionaries and on and on.

In all of these countries I am sure there are illegitimate and disrespectful proseltysiers instead of missionaries but in the cases you cited I don't think that is at all certain.

Asiaprod

Excelsior wrote:

I read it carefully in the first place. I fully acknowledge that you are not brandishing all missionaries as damaging and destructive.

I am very glad that you can see that, but why did you not mention that in the post?

But the basis upon which you are assessing some as damaging is flawed. Particularly in the case of Cambodia where they are expelled under freedom of speech abuses, in South Korea where they are representing the fastest growing group in the country, in China where in the face of organized oppression the church is growing through the leadership of Chinese, not missionaries and on and on.

It is not flawed, we are talking about two different things. You are talking about legitimate missionary work, I am talk about evil people who are not performing their task with the zeal and intent that the honest missionaries are. It has nothing to do with Buddhists becoming Christians.

In all of these countries I am sure there are illegitimate and disrespectful proselytizers instead of missionaries but in the cases you cited I don't think that is at all certain.

Excelsior, you should know me enough by now, to know I do not blast off carelessly or without evidence. Once again I will repeat that I am talking about the individuals mentioned above i.e illegitimate and disrespectful proselytizers. This is fact. I live here and you live 5,000 miles away. I would never, or have never in the past, made any reference to how I think things are going in Ireland simply because I am not there. Likewise, you should exercise a little caution when you are talking about a place you are miles away from. I have the daily news sources, the TV, radio, group meetings. I support Cambodia and North Korea from here in Japan. We collect radios, school supplies for kids, provide agricultural assistance and expertise, ect. The individuals I am talking about band themselves under their banner of Christian fundamentalist or evangelicals (again you take offense for the wrong reason, I am stating that is how they brand themselves, I am only refereeing to these people), with the sole aim to rack up numbers. They have done everything I have mentioned. Only a couple of weeks ago we had a big China issue here with the missionaries disguised as English teachers (has nothing to do with your reference to computer programming). I do not want to get into an argument with you here, it is a pointless exercise. I would like you to be a little more aware that the world over here is not as cozy as you might think. Bad **** is happening down here in Asia on a daily basis.

In ending this thread, I would ask you to please excursive some of these Christian qualities you discuss so freely and reflect before you attack someone who`s past record of post should have made a light go of in your head to ask the question why this post seemed to be so out of character

I hope that this post will set the issue striate between you and I. I have made it very clear that I am not refereeing to the people you are talking about. I am not attacking missionary workers who I hold in very high regard. If my post misled you into making this assumption, then I apologies for my inadequate editorial efforts. You might consider the same. In light of this clarification, do you require me to answer each of your comments individually or are prepared to accept that this post got badly of track. I will leave it to you to decide. Then I can get back to being my usual moderate self.

Excelsior

Moderate Asiaprod, come back!

I did not mean to attack you at all, but rather to address your unsupported (you haven't offered links or cited any evidence) lashing out in a "robust" manner.

Seriously though, we'll agree to disagree until I pay a visit to China before Christmas. Then you'll see me on the news either baptising Hu Jintao or getting expelled for preaching on Tianamen Square.

Asiaprod

Excelsior wrote:

Moderate Asiaprod, come back!

Back and gladly so.:)

I did not mean to attack you at all, but rather to address your unsupported (you haven't offered links or cited any evidence) lashing out in a "robust" manner.

Evidence down here I have is first hand. I have always didtrusted the media, in China in particular. If I find something , I will pass it along.

Seriously though, we'll agree to disagree until I pay a visit to China before Christmas. Then you'll see me on the news either baptising Hu Jintao or getting expelled for preaching on Tianamen Square.

Better stop of here first and I will give you a couple of lessons in English teaching:D