The E-Tub of Europe and TV Spectrum Policy (emm what policy)

Sponge Bob

Here in the E-Tub of Europe we do not have Digital TV yet, therefore we do not have a turnoff date for analogue TV which in turn will free up lots of useful wireless spectrum for more useful things than grainy TV picture.

The US will turn off Analogue TV in 2009

The UK will turn off Analogue TV region by region with the South West being turned off in 2008

Because we have no plans of any sort here in the E-Tub of Europe ©®©® we are not at the races in determining uses for this specturm in future. If we want to buy a new telly by next year we will fidn ourselves in a situation where we cannot BUY A TELLY WITH AN ANALOGUE TUNER and will have to buy a special box to 'upconvert' to Digital if we want to use the TV at all. After all who will bother to make these any more as all countries go digital ....except us ! . I am sure that Comreg will maintain their morbid interest in Car Radar spectrum nevertheless.

As we have long sunk in relevance in the greater communications firmament from having a decent telecoms network in the 1980s to having a rotting crapheap in this decade we will shortly find that even Televisions do not work anymore .

What a bloody mess

watty

You won't be able to buy a VHS as a TV tuner either as they have almost gone already.

Actually almost every kind of monitor input from digital systems other than HDMI is in fact analog. (SCART, S-Video, VGA, Component).

There should be analog RF tuner TVs available at least another 20 years (10 at least). Many countries will be much slower.

It's about time the USA got rid of 1950 NTSC. Unfortunately a large part of the US digital output is still set to be NTSC (NTSc is equal to basic VGA in resolution, but MUCH poorer in Colour quality).

PAL is just slightly lower than SVGA in resolution and slightly lower in colour quality.

720 line digital just slightly better than SVGA and a bit lower than WXGA. Euro 1080 is roughly WXGA to WUXGA quality.

I think that digital TV is not a major issue, tohough lack of regulation of Sky or any other company selling TV subscriptions here is.

Telecoms though is a disaster made much worse by sell of of Eircom by Government before sorting a lot of issues out.

Also total lack of fangs and big penalties in regulation.

bk

I think Sponge Bobs point is that the sooner we turn off terrestial analogue TV and move to DTT, the sooner that the freed up frequency can be used for HD Digital TV and wireless BB services.

Sponge Bob

My point is that there is no policy therefore we are in the stone age with any technologies developed for the spectrum freed up by analogue TV .

The only thing that could focus us on the issue is if Dialup Dempsey sets a turnoff date around 01/12/2009 in the new Comms Bill but such foresight from Dialup Dempsey will be unforthcoming until the election is over in June 2007 what with deflectors and that.

Along we will muddle in the stone age thanks to visionless and gutless Ministers and Regulators , can we have the Telegram Back lads

crawler

Is there not some sort of European framework that stipulates an analogue switch off date for all of Europe ( 2015 I think from memory) ?

watty

bk wrote:

I think Sponge Bobs point is that the sooner we turn off terrestial analogue TV and move to DTT, the sooner that the freed up frequency can be used for HD Digital TV and wireless BB services.

The BBC can't see how terrestrial would support more than 4 or 5 HD channels. That would also involve removing 10 to 20 normal channels.

I won't say it will never happen, but HD on Terrestrial in Ireland is a lot more unlikely than normal DTT. It looks like there will be pay DVB-h to portable TV and handsets years before regular DTT.

DTT needs government finance to happen here, and I can't see them spending on it.

Sponge Bob

crawler wrote:

Is there not some sort of European framework that stipulates an analogue switch off date for all of Europe ( 2015 I think from memory) ?

2012 but there is an equally important EU Directive that stipulates we are all supposed to have had "Functional Internet Access" since July 2003 an look what Comreg did to that

From

http://www.digitag.org/WebLetters/2006/External-January2006.html

Understanding the RRC 04/06 process

At the International Telecommunication Union (ITU), national administrations are preparing a frequency plan for an all-digital broadcast environment. The final plan is expected at the conclusion of the Regional Radiocommunications Conference (RRC-06) in June 2006.

As part of the plan's remit, national administrations from 118 countries from Europe, Africa and parts of Asia will try to agree on arrangements for sharing digital radio and television broadcasting services in the frequency bands III (174-230 MHz) and IV/V (470-862 MHz).

Leading up to the second session of the RRC, national administrations have been considering what their service requirements might be in an all-digital future. The first session of the RRC held in May 2004 successfully set out the planning parameters and criteria for the new plan. Since then, national administrations have been involved in intersessional activities both at the ITU level as well as at the regional level.

National administrations were asked to submit their initial service requirements by 28 February 2005. Based on the requirements submitted, the ITU published the results of the first planning exercise in July 2005. The results of the first planning exercise has given a certain indication of the initial country requirements and how feasible it will be to accommodate them.

On 31 October 2005, national administrations submitted their revised planning requirements. These new requirements are being used to create the first draft plan expected to be published in February 2006. Following further analysis and bi-lateral negotiations, as well as a five week meeting in Geneva, it is hoped that a final plan will be agreed at the conclusion of the RRC-06.
Current situation

Terrestrial broadcasting in Europe is currently regulated by the Stockholm plan of 1961. It has proven to be flexible enough to meet the diverse requirements of broadcasters for the past 45 years. While the Stockholm 61 plan provided assignments for 5,300 analogue transmitters in 38 countries, it has since been able to cope with the inclusion of over 80,000 analogue transmitters.

Updates to the plan have been made. A conference held in Geneva in 1984 covered the use of Band II while the Wiesbaden conference in 1995 and the Chester Agreement in 1997 allowed for the introduction of digital radio and television broadcasting respectively. The RRC-06 plan aims to serve as the replacement to the Stockholm 61 plan and its later updates. It will also replace the Geneva 1989 agreement between African countries.
Planning parameters

The service requirements submitted by national administrations will be used to formulate a new frequency plan. While requirements have traditionally been submitted as assignments (per transmission unit), national administrations can also submit their frequency requirements as allotments in order to enhance the flexibility of the plan.

In submitting an allotment, national administrations do not need to detail the number of transmitters in a given area but rather provide information on the type of network for a given area and its boundary. How coverage is provided within the area is then left for the country planners to determine at a later stage. National administration can select from four different reference network types depending on the topography and the given network.

For both assignments and allotments, national administrations will need to decide on the type of reception needed for a given service. Three reception cases are possible - so-called fixed roof-top antenna, portable outdoor and portable indoor. Because of the higher field strength necessary for portable indoor coverage compared with roof-top antenna reception, it may be more difficult to provide this type of coverage over large areas.

Because the remit of the RRC-06 plan had been established prior to the development of the DVB-H standard for mobile television services, the planning process does not allow for the direct inclusion of such services. However, because the DVB-H standard is based upon the DVB-T standard for digital television broadcasting, national administrations can set requirements with specific reception cases that would allow for the emergence of DVB-H services. Given the rapid pace of technological innovation, it is unlikely that the RRC-06 plan will have the same life span as the Stockholm 61 plan. However, it is hoped that it can incorporate enough flexibility to last well into the future.

At this stage, the requirements submitted by national administrations currently exceed the physical spectrum available, thus making negotiations between countries necessary. In the first planning exercise, national administrations requested 43,000 allocations in the UHF band although only about 26,000 allocations could be satisfied.
Analogue switch-off

Countries are at very different planning stages in digital switch-over; some have started analogue switch-off while others have not yet launched digital services. Given the geographical size of the planning area, not all countries will be ready to implement the new frequency plan or end their analogue terrestrial television services at the same time.

Two options have been proposed for when countries will stop protecting the analogue services of their neighbours. Under the first option, analogue protection could end no later than 2015. Alternatively, analogue protection could cease between 2028 and 2038. The selection of one of these two options will need to be decided at the RRC-06.

In the preparation for the RRC-06, the majority of European countries has indicated a preference for the first option. This is further re-enforced by the position of the European Commission calling on "Member-States to adopt a common position in the RRC negotiations to ensure that the end of the transition period, namely the end of general legal protection of analogue channels will take place at the earliest proposed date, as close as possible to 2012" (COM (2005) 461 final).

It may be possible that analogue switch-off take place regionally with some regions in the planning area choosing to implement the plan earlier than in others.
Spectrum dividend

Services delivered using digital technology make more efficient use of the spectrum than the equivalent services delivered using analogue technology. This implies that with analogue switch-off, a spectrum dividend could exist. The European Commission has calculated that 300 to 375 MHz of spectrum could become available after analogue switch-off should the digital platform only provide the same services as existed on the analogue platform (COM (2005) 461 final). However, based on the first planning exercise, the requirements of the national administrations are greater than the frequency channels available.

This suggest that countries have already taken into account the spectrum dividend in setting their requirements by providing new broadcast services and expanding the coverage area of existing DTT services. Only when the RRC-06 plan is finalised will it become clear how much spectrum has been released, if any at all.
Next steps

In a country where wireline regulation has manifestly failed, and where wireless is threfore of great importance , the fact that 3G services appeare in 2005 and that there is no plan to LAUNCH DIGITAL telly without which plan we cannot RETIRE ANALOGUE telly speaks volumes.

Consider this telly fiasco to be a sort of lead indicator. Even Greece are ahead of us . Spain 1 million homes hooked up already etc, Czechs launched .

jwt

Sponge Bob wrote:

2012 but there is an equally important EU Directive that stipulates we are all supposed to have had "Functional Internet Access" since July 2003 an look what Comreg did to that

From

http://www.digitag.org/WebLetters/2006/External-January2006.html

It was a pity that there was no definition of FIA put forward by ANY EU body. Even in the UK Ofcom never defined it in a legal document, the threat was enough.

In some countries mandating ISDN quality lines pre-empted the reg, in others there was no need as telco competition was pushing BB forward regardless. AFAIK Ireland is one of th only countries to attempt to define FIA, albeit in a typically Irish answer to an Irish problem kind of way. Countries like Germany are watching the Irish solution with interest.



John

[Kenny Voice] OMG I defended ComReg [/Kenny Voice]

Blaster99

Would it not be a lot easier and cheaper to just use Sky's satellite platform for digital TV? That way you can make RTE PPV and Sky can collect it. No need to hassle people about their TV licences and those who for some reason like to watch RTE can pay for it, the rest don't. I'm sure the price of installing satellite dishes for people would be less than the money generally wasted in RTE plus whatever many millions it would cost to install and run a terrestrial digital TV network.

Mr_Man

but would it not give a monopoly to a private company over a vital part of the national infrastructure; the Bertman would never do that. Wait forgot about the West Link.........get Murdoch on the line......


M.

Capt'n Midnight

We will have analog TV for as long as there is Analog Cable TV in any of the large markets and/or the places that make TV's like most of Eastern Asia.

bk

Blaster99 wrote:

Would it not be a lot easier and cheaper to just use Sky's satellite platform for digital TV? That way you can make RTE PPV and Sky can collect it. No need to hassle people about their TV licences and those who for some reason like to watch RTE can pay for it, the rest don't. I'm sure the price of installing satellite dishes for people would be less than the money generally wasted in RTE plus whatever many millions it would cost to install and run a terrestrial digital TV network.

1) Sky wouldn't want to bother doing that, Ireland is too small of a market for them to do anything extra over the UK. Remember the FTV card scheme in the UK costs millions to run, that would take a large share of RTE's intake to do.

2) A very large part of the population can't get satellite, because they live in an apartment, rented property or in a shadow of a mountain. Also many mothers (mine comes to mind) don't want to put "ugly" dishes on their nice homes.

3) It would be completely unfair and probably illegal to the other TV distribution companies like NTL and Magnet.

4) You would be putting an important national infrastructure in the hands of a foreign compay that the Irish government has no way of controlling.

5) The infrastructure and equipment costs of DTT aren't really that high and can easily be paid for by allowing some of the DTT spectrum to be used by a commercial entity by a pay-tv service.

6) Who is gonig to pay the €300 (and that is for just one TV) for all the people on social welfare or on minimum wage, rthat is a lot of money for a lot of people.

It is widely recognised in the TV industry across europe that a multi-platform approach is needed to allow digital national TV to be supplied to all people. DTT on it's own isn't enough, it will only reach about 90% of people, but satellite on its own isn't the answer either, in the UK they estimate that only about 65% of people could get a dish.

That is why the BBC is taking a multi-platform approach, using both DTT (which has been hugely popular, surpassing cable and will likely surpass satellite soon) and FTA satellite.

Personally I would like to see RTE do both DTT and also go FTA on satellite.

OfflerCrocGod

Mr_Man wrote:

Wait forgot about the West Link.

Don't you mean our phone network?

watty

Only really a cliff would shadow a dish. Elevation is about 22 degrees.

Next generation Satellite TV may use a dish much smaller than MMDS, which is only a little smaller or less obtrusive than a Sky Dish.

A Dish install and a Satellite receiver for FTA is a similar price to an aerial install and a DTT receiver.

It isn't as simple black & white issue.

The BBC approach is good, But unless Goverment invests, not possible for Irish TV.

A FTV card at €20 a year *IS* possible for Irish TV, but a FTA satellite is not ever likely unless the whole sport and media industry world wide was to change dramatically.

Blaster99

bk wrote:

1) Sky wouldn't want to bother doing that, Ireland is too small of a market for them to do anything extra over the UK. Remember the FTV card scheme in the UK costs millions to run, that would take a large share of RTE's intake to do.

So that's why they're carrying RTE already then? In digital widescreen.

bk wrote:

2) A very large part of the population can't get satellite, because they live in an apartment, rented property or in a shadow of a mountain. Also many mothers (mine comes to mind) don't want to put "ugly" dishes on their nice homes.

So how do these people get RTE now? Either through aerial or cable. So these buildings need to add a dish, big deal. Is a dish any uglier than an aerial? Do I care?

bk wrote:

3) It would be completely unfair and probably illegal to the other TV distribution companies like NTL and Magnet.

They charge the dopes for RTE delivery now, what's the difference?

bk wrote:

4) You would be putting an important national infrastructure in the hands of a foreign compay that the Irish government has no way of controlling.

Maybe, but I don't think that's a big deal. It's not as if life without RTE would really affect anyone, unless you follow Fair City.

bk wrote:

5) The infrastructure and equipment costs of DTT aren't really that high and can easily be paid for by allowing some of the DTT spectrum to be used by a commercial entity by a pay-tv service.

I'm sure cost is not the issue. Complete inability to get the job done is the main issue.

bk wrote:

6) Who is gonig to pay the €300 (and that is for just one TV) for all the people on social welfare or on minimum wage, rthat is a lot of money for a lot of people.

People pay €150-odd a year already for nothing. I'm sure DTT has similar multiviewing issues with multiple decoders being required. This stuff isn't exactly rocket science to work around.

bk wrote:

Personally I would like to see RTE do both DTT and also go FTA on satellite.

Sorry, I was talking about reality.

Sponge Bob

How much would it cost the government to hire a transponder on the Luxembourg owned (not Murdoch owned) Astra 2 ???? say about 10 mbits worth fo 4 x SD channels .

watty

Less than 6 TV channels of Sky EPG placement

watty

Eutelsat Hotbird at 28.5E is rumoured to be slightly cheaper A lot of "cheaper" Sky channels are certianly on it.

RTE did a "secret" deal with Sky lasting to 2008.
1) RTE do own uplink
2) Sky pay for transponder (DW is only non Irish channel on it, pay TV, though FTA everywhere else)
3) Sky provide free encryption (normally Millions, but costs Sky almost nothing)
4) Sky provide free epg slots (normally about 300K per channel per year or more, costs Sky nothing)
5) Sky decide price and package of RTE on Sky.

So really FTV on Sky would cost RTE more for the Sky EPG and Sky encryption (because of toothless ofcom in UK rulling in Sky's favour on BBC and ITV challenges to costs) than the actual Transponder.

From RTE's point of view they get on a pay TV wireless Cable system for nearly free. RTE have told me in several Emails that they don't accept Satellite as an alternate to Terrestrial, or that FTA exists, they see it as something that ONLY people paying for multichannel have, so by that logic the current agreement that carries all four Irish TV channels free on Sky is good for RTE.

They really, really arn't going to go FTV unless Goverment legislation forces them and Goverment pays them. Where is the incentive?

Sponge Bob

The incentive is that the transponder beam could be ultra narrow and centred on the Aran Islands , the rationale is simple.

40cm in Galway 50cm in Athlone and 60cm in Dublin (as at present)

This would mean that the size of dish required in overspill territory like Manchester would be over 80cm and prohibitively large ...thereby reducing leakage and allowing setanta its space.

You would also have the best service on the west coast where the dish size would be most wind resistant while no new dishes would be required on the more populated east coast.

Murdoch beams overspill here because Murdoch must serve from the Shetlands to the Channel islands and shape accordingly, Ireland is more compact and round so a smaller transponder beam will do fine.

You'd nearly be able to pick it up with a teapot lid in Connemara

watty

Maybe next year's launches might have a satellite like that, but if a 60cm works in Dublin it is likely a 80cm will work anywhere in UK.

For today, with what is there it is a pipe dream.

The next generation spot beam will likely be for 30cm dish. Which means an 80cm dish will work in France / Netherlands etc.

The only feasible solution is encryption charged at a realistic price (Sky/NDS prices have about 99.9% profit margin for encryption) and a annual charge for a FTV card like Netherlands (about 20 Euro). RTE ought to even make a profit out of it if encryption is charged to them at a true cost reflecting price with sensible margin.

Either Sky must be forced to support viaaccess viewing card (this is possible with OTA SW update) or be forced by UK & IRL regulator to charge a sensible price for cards and encryption. Sky make about 75% profit from their "freesat from Sky" FTV card from user and about 99% or more profit from those paying for FTV encryption. They charge twice for what costs cost £5 per card per user.

Nothing Sky & RTE do will change without more aggressive approach by UK, ROI goverments/regulators and by EU.

We know how likely Comreg are to do anything off their own bat on this.

bk

Interestingly in a recent document from RTE on the future of digital TV, RTE actually mentions FTA (not FTV) as a possibilty to fill in the areas not covered by DTT.

It is important to point out that RTE doesn't have to worry about overspill because of a EU directive that specifically says that national broadcasters don't have any responsibilty for overspill. That is how the BBC and ITV are now operating on FTA, it wouldn't be any different for RTE.

watty

It's nothing to do with the EU... Yes RTE can "overspill" a 1/3rd of earth from C-band if they like or just "overspill" UK.

Its about contractural rights with the suppliers of program material to them and the people making or providing "RTE only" programming. "Overspill" to UK would increase costs on "rights" payments by x20.

"Overspill" by ITV / BBC to ROI costs virtually nothing as they have had over 70% coverage before satellite and the extra market is tiny extra charge even if it was an extra charge.

The EU directive is:
(a) Mis-understood by most people.
It has NO effect on "rights" contracts between broadcaster and supplier which may limit coverage. It does mean that you may LEGALLY receive any transmission you are able to receive if (1) It is FTA or (2) You pay the correct provider the correct money for the correct package if it is encrypted. Thus while Sky are obligated by supplier contracts NOT to sell UK sub in France, or NOT to sell ROI sub in UK, it is legitimate under EU law to take your legal, legitmately paid sub card/equipment where-ever it works.

b) Most of the Pay TV suppliers succesfully apply the EU "Tv without frontiers" directive to aviod paying tax or VAT where a subscription is sold, or to aviod regulation by claiming under the directive that they can only be regulated or pay tax/vat etc in the country where they originate the transmissions!

so the below statement is false

bk wrote:

It is important to point out that RTE doesn't have to worry about overspill because of a EU directive that specifically says that national broadcasters don't have any responsibilty for overspill. That is how the BBC and ITV are now operating on FTA, it wouldn't be any different for RTE.

They won't want to spend 20 times as much on "rights" and the issues are completely different for RTE and BBC/ITV due to differing market size and historical BBC/ITV coverage in most of Ireland already mostly in UK rights.

bk

watty wrote:

They won't want to spend 20 times as much on "rights" and the issues are completely different for RTE and BBC/ITV due to differing market size and historical BBC/ITV coverage in most of Ireland already mostly in UK rights.

Actually ITV doesn't have the rights to many shows in Ireland, for instance TV3 has the rights to show Cornation Street and Setanta has the rights to show Formula 1 in Ireland. Yet it still didn't stop ITV going FTA.

It might stop ITV from actively advertising to Ireland and being on the Sky Ireland EPG, but it doesn't seem to stop them from being FTA.

Or what about RTE having the rights to Lost far before C4, yet C4 is on Irish cable and Sky.

It really isn't clear from the directive if it should include rights issues or not and remember a EU directive needs to be transposed into each EU countries laws, we have seen in the BB area that EU directives have been transposed into law in radically different ways in different countries. It certainly seems that in the UK they have taken the view that they can ignore rights issues.