Graduate entry medicine courses in Ireland from 2007!

eth0_

The Irish Medical Organisation has welcomed plans to more than double the number of places for medical students.

However, the organisation warned that graduate entry to medicine must not be a ploy by the Government to charge students fees for education.


The Government is to increase the number of places for medical students by 180 over the next four years.

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A new system to allow graduates with degrees in other areas to enter medicine will also be introduced from September next year.

An expert group is to be asked to devise an objective aptitude test to determine which graduates are suitable for training as doctors.

305 students from Ireland and other EU countries enter medical school in Ireland each year to train as doctors. This number was capped by the Government in the late 1970s and it has never been changed.

But two reports published today, the Fottrell and Buttimer reports on undergraduate and postgraduate medical training, say Ireland needs more doctors and that the entry system to medicine should be changed.

As a result, the Ministers for Health and Education today announced plans to increase the number of places for Irish and EU medical students by 180.

This programme will cost over €12 million and will begin this September.

A system to allow graduates from other areas to enter medicine will also be introduced from September 2007, with 60 places a year for this group.

Commenting on plans to introduce a suitability and aptitude test for medicine, the IMO said that the existing points-based entry system was safe from interference and any form of canvassing.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2006/0201/health.html

Tree

eth0_ wrote:

A new system to allow graduates with degrees in other areas to enter medicine will also be introduced from September next year.

An expert group is to be asked to devise an objective aptitude test to determine which graduates are suitable for training as doctors.

A system to allow graduates from other areas to enter medicine will also be introduced from September 2007, with 60 places a year for this group.

Commenting on plans to introduce a suitability and aptitude test for medicine, the IMO said that the existing points-based entry system was safe from interference and any form of canvassing.

there'll be a fair few ppl in my course try that route to get into medicine i'd say.

while the cao doesnt allow bias, there is a certain amount of suitabilty assesment should be carried out for candidates to such a course.

perhaps entry via first science would be a more fair system of access, (and i had a good reason why and ive been distracted by something shiney, will remember laters)

Vorsprung

There was talk of introducing a health science degree that you'd do before going into med, think it fizzled. But the med degree itself would have to be shortened, 9 years in college might seem great but i'm sure there comes a time when you just want to get out into the world.

DrIndy

I'm glad the report is finally published! I was a member of the Fottrell committee that published the report as a student and put a lot of work into it.

It will cost a LOT more than 12 million and I hope they have the balls to face up to the challenge of funding medical education properly

lomb

75% OF irish medical graduates emigrate after qualification at some point, due to the immoral contract rotation of doctors here with no permanent jobs.

theyd want to fix that before grandiously saying theres some kind of shortage!:v:

Tree

bigjimthefirst wrote:

There was talk of introducing a health science degree that you'd do before going into med, think it fizzled. But the med degree itself would have to be shortened, 9 years in college might seem great but i'm sure there comes a time when you just want to get out into the world.

a sort of health science degree could be used by other ppl to get into other medicine related fields w/o restricting them to becoming a doctor of some sort at the end.

very much a believer in the many career choices at the end of a degree

eth0_

Exactly, in the USA most people do science or health science BSc and then do medicine, I think it works out at 7-8 years in university in total.

It must be sh*t doing 7 years at med school and then deciding fairly soon after that this isn't for you. At least you'd have your primary science degree to fall back on.

eth0_

Jeez...RCSI posted this on their site today (they're taking graduates from September 2006, you can apply online now...IF YOU'RE LOADED). I certainly hope the fees in other medical schools won't be nearly as high :-(

Tuition fees for GEP students registering in September 2006 are €40,000 per year for years one and two of the programme. Years three and four will be subject to the same non EU fee structure currently in place for the five-year RCSI Medical Programme. For the academic year 2006-2007, the fee for the five-year medical programme is €38,500 with anticipated annual increments of between 5-7%.

eth0_

Needn't have got our hopes up about graduate entry medicine - it's a f*cking joke.

You need a 2:1 or 1:1 in your degree - fair enough.

You also need 400 leaving cert points.

How the f*ck is this fair? Lots of people (me included) did sh*t in their leaving cert but have gone on to do a degree either as a mature student or part-time, or as follow on from a cert/diploma.

But all your hard work obviously counts for nothing because even if you came top of your class with a first degree, you won't even be CONSIDERED for med school unless you got 400 points in your leaving!

What is the point! Why on earth do they even consider your leaving cert results at all? If you have a first or second class honours degree you're obviously intelligent and capable of studying.

What a joke.

Chucky

I agree that it is unfair of them to include Leaving Cert results in the prerequisites for this graduate program. Many people change their attitude to study once they leave school.

On another note, how can a middle-class Irish person afford fees for Medicine anymore? I am a medicine hopeful and, academic-wise, I am sound for graduate entry but how can I afford the fees?

BAH!

Tree

eth0_ wrote:

Needn't have got our hopes up about graduate entry medicine - it's a f*cking joke.

You need a 2:1 or 1:1 in your degree - fair enough.

You also need 400 leaving cert points.

How the f*ck is this fair? Lots of people (me included) did sh*t in their leaving cert but have gone on to do a degree either as a mature student or part-time, or as follow on from a cert/diploma.

But all your hard work obviously counts for nothing because even if you came top of your class with a first degree, you won't even be CONSIDERED for med school unless you got 400 points in your leaving!

What is the point! Why on earth do they even consider your leaving cert results at all? If you have a first or second class honours degree you're obviously intelligent and capable of studying.

What a joke.

it's not fair, but you could repeat your leavin within a year and pick up the required points.

i assume they think that the ppl who are now applying for medicine had previously wanted to do it undergrad style and would have studied their socks off for the leaving.

Kwekubo

Chucky wrote:

I agree that it is unfair of them to include Leaving Cert results in the prerequisites for this graduate program. Many people change their attitude to study once they leave school.

On another note, how can a middle-class Irish person afford fees for Medicine anymore? I am a medicine hopeful and, academic-wise, I am sound for graduate entry but how can I afford the fees?

BAH!

Just a hunch, but I think the other schemes will charge a little less than RCSI's quote of €150,000 the lot. You're right though, the money is still shocking :eek: .

eth0_

The suggestion that I repeat my leaving cert is just laughable.
I'm not finished the degree that I study on evenings and weekends. I work full time. I have a car loan and my SSIA to pay off in addition to my college fees. I rent. I don't have the option to move home for a year and repeat my leaving cert. Even if I did, I couldn't possibly combine studying for a degree and several leaving cert subjects at the same time.

These graduate entry programs aren't devised for people who wanted to do medicine in 6th year but failed to get the points. They're for mature people who have life experience and have found that their vocation in life has changed. Medicine isn't something you're going to do on a whim when you're 25.

The fees in colleges other than RCSI are likely to be 20k a year, around half of RCSI.

For me, to have to pay fees is also unfair. I'm doing my degree with the open university, so i'm paying for it all myself. It's not subsidised by the government. If someone did their undergrad the 'normal' way then I can understand having to pay fees but 20k a year is prohibitively expensive, even with the special loan AIB are doing (where you only pay the interest until you graduate and are working), because what if you fail/drop out? You're instantly 20k in debt!

The company that runs revision weeks for the GAMSAT entrance exam that RCSI require have cancelled classes in Dublin due to lack of interest. Presumably there are a lot of people in the same boat as me. Maybe the government will revise the fees and the points requirements if they see people aren't able to apply. Fingers crossed...

Chucky

eth0_ your story brings to light in my mind a problem with the education system. It is a tricky one to overcome though.


You appear to be tied down to lots of things that involve your money going out instead of in... ...Yet you appear to be intelligent and motivated enough to do Medicine. Surely entry to the course should be based on intelligence, motivation, and practical skills rather than financial backing.

I agree with you that the scheme is probably designed "mature people who have life experience" but what about young people like you who have the will to do the damn course.

eth0_

Money isn't so much the issue for me, it's the 400 points at leaving cert requirement that is so unfair. People mess up, or don't have the ambition, whatever the reason. It shouldn't be held against you when you're an adult with a degree and life experience. ESPECIALLY if you have to do the GAMSAT exam which is mainly science and comprehension at leaving cert/1st year of university level.

doc strangelove

Guys,

As one graduate to another for those of you considering medicine as a postgraduate degree: don't waste your time paying these ridiculous fees that Irish medical schools are charging. Apply to the UK schools and you will get a much better deal. I have to pay no fees upfront in Scotland, and AFAIK I only have to pay back a small amount when I graduate - less than £10,000 over several years. Granted, it is a 5 year degree though.

Check out the English graduate courses too - I think you're expected to pay £3,000/year due to the increase in tuition fees, but it still seems like a cheaper option than Ireland!

eth0_ - I'm not too sure if British universities would just look at your degree or whether they would take your LC into account, but hey, it wouldn't do any harm to try and find out!

Best of luck.

Faith

Doc- you're doing a second undergrad degree, no? AFAIK doing medicine as a postgraduate course in Scotland isn't possible. I've been considering doing med after my primary biology degree, but if I stay in Scotland, I'll continue being an undergrad. And I'd say the criteria for acceptance are really high.

Also, you pay back the entirety of your fees - currently £1175 or thereabouts per year- when you're finished your degree and earning over £10,000 per year. Obviously, you don't have to pay it all at once.

doc strangelove

Faith wrote:

Doc- you're doing a second undergrad degree, no? AFAIK doing medicine as a postgraduate course in Scotland isn't possible. I've been considering doing med after my primary biology degree, but if I stay in Scotland, I'll continue being an undergrad. And I'd say the criteria for acceptance are really high.

Yup, that's the reason I said it was a 5 year course. I don't consider a 2H1 to be that high a criteria for entry, especially when you see how ridiculously hard it is to get into medicine as a postgraduate in Ireland at the moment. I mean getting a 2H1 is nothing compared with having to acheive 570+ points in the LC. I received two offers from Scottish universities and I wouldn't even have been considered for most of the Irish ones because of the stupid 23+ rule.

If you do decide on studying medicine when you graduate, best of luck. It isn't easy at times when the classes are on a subject you know in excruciating detail, but I feel it'll all be worth it in the end.

Faith

So did you do a primary degree first? Was it in a science? If so, do you still have to do all 5 years of the course, or can you skip first year?

eth0_

There are two ways of entering graduate medicine in the UK

You can apply via UCAS to do the 5 year course if your degree or A levels were in science subjects.

Or apply to the Graduate Entry Medicine courses which are all 4 years long. But you have almost no holidays on the GEP program so it must be very stressful.

sportswear

etho is it not just easier if you get out a loan repeat . get the points - piss easy for a graduate- then you are guaranteed in . if you get 600 you can do ucd 5 year course so it works out same anyway.....?

DrIndy

You have next to no holidays in medicine here too!

the RCSI is jumping the gun and I am not sure what they hope to achieve by rolling out this current program.

In about 2 years time, the funding program will roll out that will get graduate entry schemes going in other colleges and the number of places will dramaticaly increase and fees will NOT be at the level of RCSI - but around E10,000.

The entry plans are either 450 points PLUS aptitude test OR 2.1 or higher PLUS GAMSATish test (plan is to create an Irish aptitude test, not copy another version). Where have you gotten the LC AND Degree results from?

eth0_

DrIndy -

On the UCD website:
http://www.ucd.ie/horizons/programmes/medgrad_overview.htm

You have to have a 2:1 minimum *and* a minimum of 400 points in your leaving.

I wonder will they even have interviews! I thought the whole point of graduate/mature entry was that it recruits people with life experience, who made the wrong choices when they were 17 but now know what career they want.

As for sportswear - do you live in the real world? I'm 25, I have a career, my own place, my own car and the associated loans already. I'm not going to go back and do my fscking leaving cert again lol! I had planned on applying to UK GEP's when I finish my degree, but I really wanted to stay in Ireland :-/

DrIndy

Hmmmm, things are moving and taking a strange turn. Keep watching that space and check out other medical schools in the country - the Fottrell report does not stipulate that you must have both an honours degree AND 400 points and so other medical school may yet be open to you.

eth0_

Will do.
I'd imagine they'll drop the requirement when they see how few people will apply for financial reasons alone!

RCSI I wouldn't be too interested in. I think that place is more interested in making shedloads of money than turning out good doctors.

sportswear

As for sportswear - do you live in the real world? I'm 25, I have a career, my own place, my own car and the associated loans already. I'm not going to go back and do my fscking leaving cert again lol! I had planned on applying to UK GEP's when I finish my degree, but I really wanted to stay in Ireland :-/

i do.

i'm in 3rd year medicine at the moment in UCD and many people from my class have done this.

some with kids.

just seems the easiest way to me. you could even work while you do it, at weekends study during the evenings.
your going to have to make sacrifices. many many people want to do it . you have to want to do it more.

RCSI I wouldn't be too interested in. I think that place is more interested in making shedloads of money than turning out good doctors.

they turn out excellent doctors.

sportswear

also what are your 3rd level qualifications in??

they will require you to have a v.good grounding in relevant scieces.

i think you mistook my point about the LC. you don't have to go back to school to sit it.. you can do 6 subjects on your own and sit the exams.

seems the easiest route to me.

eth0_

If I was going to do it that way, i'd rather take A-levels.
I have thought about it, but I really couldn't support myself on a part time salary.