Did I Make the Right Decision?

Dave

€50 DC in the fitz last night. Level 1 blinds 10/25. My stack is about 1600.

Get dealt KhJh in Button - 2

Villian (UTG + 1) raises to 200, I call

FLOP: K97 rainbow; Villian checks I bet 300, Villian then re raises to 800, after awhile I call.

TURN: Rag; Villian Pushes, after some deliberation I fold.

Do you call or fold here? I thought I might have been out kickered. I have no read on the guy at all, or have any idea what his starting hands are. Thinking about it then last night, he could have had queens or jacks. The check re raise on the flop confused me. Would you do that with AK?

So would you call or fold?

cardshark202

Fold preflop.

Culchie

Dave wrote:

€50 DC in the fitz last night. Level 1 blinds 10/25. My stack is about 1600.

Get dealt KhJh in Button - 2

Villian (UTG + 1) raises to 200, I call

FLOP: K97 rainbow; Villian checks I bet 300, Villian then re raises to 800, after awhile I call.

TURN: Rag; Villian Pushes, after some deliberation I fold.

Do you call or fold here? I thought I might have been out kickered. I have no read on the guy at all, or have any idea what his starting hands are. Thinking about it then last night, he could have had queens or jacks. The check re raise on the flop confused me. Would you do that with AK?

So would you call or fold?

You made your major mistake right from the off.

Let him have your 25 chips.

ntlbell

Culchie wrote:

You made your major mistake right from the off.

Let him have your 25 chips.

what 25 chips?

Dave

Well telling me to fold preflop isn't great analysis, as I played the hand

Culchie

ntlbell wrote:

what 25 chips?

lol, I presumed he was defending his big blind. I still think it's a fold.:)

Culchie

Dave wrote:

Well telling me to fold preflop isn't great analysis, as I played the hand

tbh, it's probably the best advice you will get on the hand.

edit ... not being smart, your analysis was probably correct, you were out kickered...hence it all goes back to your starting hand.

Dave

But no one has answered my question. If for some reason you were in the hand would you call or fold?

ntlbell

Dave wrote:

Well telling me to fold preflop isn't great analysis, as I played the hand

Well the only other answer your going to get is fold post flop

which goes back to point number 1 fold pre-flop


Culchie no mumblings on the gap concept?

Culchie

Dave wrote:

But no one has answered my question. If for some reason you were in the hand would you call or fold?

Dave to directly answer your question, I would fold.

But you got yourself in a big mess here over nothing.

califano

Yeah Dave i reckon you did do the right thing in folding. He either had you out kicked or AA i reckon. Folding showing him the king as i you point an accusing index finger at him would have been appropriate!.

How did you get on for the duration?

Dave

It was all down hill from there really. Played some of the worst poker I've played in a long time.

I did actually show him the King

Cheers for the replies guys, just that hand had been bugging me all night.

careca

Firstly I'd agree with most of the posters to fold preflop.

but seen as you played the hand, you have to try and figure out what he could have. The raise is fairly large (8xBB) so I would rule out somebody looking for some action. Looks like he wants to take it down there, but then again its only 35 to take down!!

I think you were behind alright but possibly to AA or a set. He could have gotten a bit excited about AA and raised too much or maybe he wanted to win with 77, 99 and hit his cards. Probably still doesn't explain the reraise on the flop as he would be miles ahead.

Basically I haven't a clue but my gut instincts say a player who has a big hand and isn't used to slowplaying to maximise his earnings. So a fold was right.


*feel free to delete this post Mods*

ollyk1

How can you call a 500 check raise and fold for a remaining 600?

If you are going to play the hand and you decide to call the check raise then you are effectively making a decision for all your chips not 500.

You were in serious trouble I'd say as the push on the turn wasn't designed to get you out of the hand as the other player assumed you'd decided you were playing this hand to the end having called his check raise. He was wrong wasn't he....

I assume from this tale you hadn't taken your double chance yet and this is why I like playing the double chance game because there are quite a few players who don't know whether to play loose (rebuy style) or tight (FO style) when the blinds are low and get themselves in all kinds of trouble. You need to think what your plan is based on your starting table and the structure before you play a hand not half way through the hand.

Edit:

If you hadn't had your double chance and if I thought he had aces I'd call because I'm fairly priced in. I'd hope the chances of a set are offset by the chances of a bluff or some crazy mofo with QQ or JJ or KT (v unlikely) or a mad draw/bluff. In conclusion I'd probably call because I'm so bloody priced in. But then again I wouldn't call for 12.5% of my stack at this stage of the game with KJ sooted or not. (It's a raise based on a read or a fold - calling is horrible)

Hitman Actual

You've no idea where you are at any stage of the hand, all from playing a marginal hand like KJs after an early position raise. Once you're in the hand, calling the flop CR isn't great either, as I think it leaves you with just 600 behind. And I dont think I'm going to fold to the all-in either with the odds you're getting.

But I'm not too sure either, 'cos I wont be in this situation very often, if ever. The fact is you have no idea where you are.

Gholimoli

i agree with Ollie,
i think the fold to an extra 600 was very bad play.
you were prob beat yeah but at that stage you had let the pot get so big and were pot commited.
(the fact that you made a mistake letting the pot get big is another story and should not influence you to make another mistake here by folding).
there is one more card to come and you prob have 6 outs and i say that should be enough to make the call correct here.
now back to why the hand got out of hand.
apart from the obviouse droping it pre-flop,i would deffo check behind here on the flop.
you have a hand that can deffo improve on the next card so you should want to see it as cheap as possible.the reason why you shouldnt bet here is exactly what happend.your hand hates to be check raised here and is not strong enough to stand it.checking behind you would get to see the turn and then take it from there.you have position here,use it to your advantage not disadvantage.

Hectorjelly

Preflop is bad unless you plan on outplaying the guy with your position.
You should check the flop, always be suspicous of a preflop raise then check.
When you bet and get raised you need to make a decision then as to what you are going to do, if you call then you are committed to calling the rest on the turn. In this case I would probably fold. Had I called I would of called the turn.

Hitman Actual

Gholimoli wrote:

i would deffo check behind here on the flop.
you have a hand that can deffo improve on the next card so you should want to see it as cheap as possible.

I dont like checking behind. You've hit a decent flop, but your kicker isn't great. I like his bet, but I'm going to drop to a CR. And I dont see how is hand can deffo improve either. If he's out-kicked, then only 3 jacks will improve his hand.

califano

Oh sorry i thought you folded to the check raise earlier. Yeah i dont think you can call that then fold later.

ntlbell

rounders123 wrote:

Oh sorry i thought you folded to the check raise earlier. Yeah i dont think you can call that then fold later.

Ditto, I'd have folded to the CR but since you called I think you have to stay in the hand

ollyk1

Hectorjelly wrote:

Preflop is bad unless you plan on outplaying the guy with your position.

The first post in this discussion sums up "outplaying" for me

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=4535996&an=&page=&vc=1

It's okay for HJ to talk about "outplaying" where he knows his opponent and has a good idea of what will work against that particular type of opponent. I have my doubts that Dave has a clear idea of how hes going to play this hand much less what his opponent is making an 8*BB raise with.

Therefore by calling in this spot the only person he's outplaying is himself. And then he goes and shows the king after the hand basically annonucing he has kicker trouble and now people know he calls raises with sh1te - gives action and then doesn't carry through. Dave I'm not trying to be mean but theres nothing about this hand that I like.

Culchie

ntlbell wrote:

Ditto, I'd have folded to the CR but since you called I think you have to stay in the hand

I'd still have folded (I hear you smirk:) )... it's double chance, take my second helping of chips and move on. Those 600 chips can be put to better use later on than throwing them blindly into pot.

Gholimoli

lenny_leonard wrote:

I dont like checking behind. You've hit a decent flop, but your kicker isn't great. I like his bet, but I'm going to drop to a CR. And I dont see how is hand can deffo improve either. If he's out-kicked, then only 3 jacks will improve his hand.

if you bet here you will have to fold to a raise because you dont know where your at.
betting here is bad IMO because you are effectively building a pot where you have no idea where you stand in it.why put your self in a situation to have to fold TP with two cards to come especially when your being offered the next card for free?
what are you trying to gain here by betting?if you say you wanna know where you stand ,then would you know where you sand if he just calls?
how about if he min raises?
keep the pot small ,this way you can more easilly put our opponents on a hand and also can give your self a chance to getaway from marginal hands.

ollyk1

Culchie wrote:

I'd still have folded (I hear you smirk:) )... it's double chance, take my second helping of chips and move on. Those 600 chips can be put to better use later on than throwing them blindly into pot.

I hear your argument Culchie the blinds are low and doubling 2100 later instead of 1500 is tempting. But theres a slim chance hes ahead, some of the aggressive wannabies who play that game are addicted to their bluffing so there is a possibility hes ahead. Depends on the player. Plus if he shows this play and is miles behind he'll guarantee himself action later on - hopefully with good cards this time.

Plus I love dogging aces!!

You can argue the final call it's probably the most debatable/marginal point of the whole play.

Culchie

ollyk1 wrote:

I hear your argument Culchie the blinds are low and doubling 2100 later instead of 1500 is tempting. But theres a slim chance hes ahead, some of the aggressive wannabies who play that game are addicted to their bluffing so there is a possibility hes ahead. Depends on the player. Plus if he shows this play and is miles behind he'll guarantee himself action later on - hopefully with good cards this time.

Plus I love dogging aces!!

You can argue the final call it's probably the most debatable/marginal point of the whole play.

He's asked all the questions, he's got all the answers, he has now a 'stack of 2100' left, why throw 28.5%* of that on the search of a miracle card. If on the very slim chance he hits, I can't see how's gonna get paid any more (I presume opponent has same amount of chips at this stage in tourney)

Time to take the medicine.


*pedantic

jtsuited

fold preflop. then you don't have to dig up. Hit your jack you're fcuked, hit your king you're fcuked. Only thing that you can flop that is any use is the nut straight.
but then the board will pair on the river making him a house. Because the poker gods like to punish those who flat call a raise preflop with kojak.
They're like that you know!
Ps. sorry for gettin a bit carried away with my hypothetical hand there. In the fitz til half five this morning and up at seven. lordy give me sleep!

Dave

Don't worry about being harsh, I know it was bad play hence the post. You live you learn

ianmc38

lenny_leonard wrote:

I dont like checking behind. You've hit a decent flop, but your kicker isn't great. I like his bet, but I'm going to drop to a CR. And I dont see how is hand can deffo improve either. If he's out-kicked, then only 3 jacks will improve his hand.

Thatsm my thinking here as well. Checking here gives you no information. A bet of 300 is a nice feeler bet and in many cases i'm sure this will take down the pot. I would defo fold to the CR though.

If he checks and the turn is say a J, then he could be crippled by slow played trips and KJ will be a lot harder to lay down then.

Norwich Fan Rob

i would never play KJs for 8 BB's
if for some reason i did, i would fold instantly to a re raise which clearly commits villian, u are screaming King at him, and he is screaming that hes happy to take it to the felt.
then when u do call, u are commited, and have to call the river.

basically u make about 4 mistakes on the one hand imo.

Gholimoli

ianmc38 wrote:

Thatsm my thinking here as well. Checking here gives you no information. A bet of 300 is a nice feeler bet and in many cases i'm sure this will take down the pot. I would defo fold to the CR though.

If he checks and the turn is say a J, then he could be crippled by slow played trips and KJ will be a lot harder to lay down then.

the chances of you getting slow played with trips on a board of KJxx is very small when you have KJ.
im willing to take thoes chances.

Hitman Actual

Gholimoli wrote:

if you bet here you will have to fold to a raise because you dont know where your at.
betting here is bad IMO because you are effectively building a pot where you have no idea where you stand in it.why put your self in a situation to have to fold TP with two cards to come especially when your being offered the next card for free?
what are you trying to gain here by betting?if you say you wanna know where you stand ,then would you know where you sand if he just calls?
how about if he min raises?
keep the pot small ,this way you can more easilly put our opponents on a hand and also can give your self a chance to getaway from marginal hands.

The reason I like to bet the flop is because, from my experience of this game, a check-raise will mean that you are behind (most of the time, at least). Most of the players in this game are not tricky enough to CR with a second best hand, or with air. So the bet, followed by the CR gives you all the info you need.

In a tougher game, I'd be more inclined to check the flop and hope to get to showdown as cheaply as possible, or win with a turn bet if it's checked again. But in a tougher game, it's unlikely that I'm going to be in that situation with KJs.

ollyk1

Culchie wrote:

He's asked all the questions, he's got all the answers, he has now a 'stack of 2100' left, why throw 28.5%* of that on the search of a miracle card. If on the very slim chance he hits, I can't see how's gonna get paid any more (I presume opponent has same amount of chips at this stage in tourney)

Time to take the medicine.


*pedantic

Why? Because I'm hoping he's up against aces and he has 5 clean outs. I'm hoping the times he's up against sets are offset by the times he's up against bluffs and the times he's up against KQ are offset by the times he up against KJ/KT (all very unlikely) . AK is the real worry hand for me but someone could have QQ and JJ and decided to check raise a weak bet on the flop and now find they can't lay it down so decide to push just in case. By the turn I'd really hope I'd have a good idea what cards my opponent is playing to help me in this spot (from experience of live play to go with the betting pattern).

Therefore if this logic is correct he has a chance of winning a 3235 pot for 600 and hes getting just about the odds in the long-term I reckon. Now if he does have the odds and lucks out on the river he has a stack to seriously start playing with and a maniac image at the table which he can use as people may be afraid to gamble with him. Maybe he can use this to try and win the game. It's a long way off though.

On the other hand he can take the medicine call for his double chance, bleed away his chips for another hour or two and go home rueing his play. Each to their own.

I'll be honest I've gone home from double chance games after 10 & 15 minutes a number of times, priced in on draws running good hands into better hands (tp and flush draw v sets and the like) and realising too late and being forced to call. That's my style and its not the only possible way to play but in the long run I give action and I get action and I'm not playing for a limp on to the final table (but I'm not a sooper aggressive player either) and I'm prepared to be the first out on any given night as a result.

I've said from the start its a marginal call in my mind and the factors such as the table I'm at and the field size etc would have a bearing but on the facts given I reckon I make a crying call and take the real medicine and learn from my mistakes!!

By the way if I did fold I wouldn't show. What does showing a king do for the OP? It encourages the guy if he bluffed me. It might encourage others to bluff me, either way if players do try and steal my BB they will definitely not be afraid to fire more bullets post flop so i'll be facing more tricky situations later on as a result. If the guy had the best hand he'll be disappointed you folded but so what? He's already got 1100 of your chips and really he'll be shaking his head not believing he got that much out of you. No way he shows you his hand unless hes totally soft in the head (or rounders!! ) he's not going to want you feeling good about that fold if hes got you beat and he's not going to show you a bluff to tilt you because it's so early and he'll only be encouraging others at the table to play back at him later something he doesn't want now hes got a few chips to bully with.

Showing achieves nothing for the OP and just bleeds info to other players who you are going to be playing with for another few hours.

I reckon he made 5 mistakes in the hand Rob as I would include showing here as a sin as well.

Gholimoli

lenny_leonard wrote:

The reason I like to bet the flop is because, from my experience of this game, a check-raise will mean that you are behind (most of the time, at least). Most of the players in this game are not tricky enough to CR with a second best hand, or with air. So the bet, followed by the CR gives you all the info you need.

In a tougher game, I'd be more inclined to check the flop and hope to get to showdown as cheaply as possible, or win with a turn bet if it's checked again. But in a tougher game, it's unlikely that I'm going to be in that situation with KJs.

im not arguing the fact that check raise here would mean a stronger hand.
how ever a stronger hand here means any hand that can beat top pair with AA being a very strong possibility.
why not take the free card,and see what the turn brings,if villian bets big you can still fold.if you get a K you can call ,if you get a j you can call.
you have a hand here with chances of improving it ,IMO you should follow thoes chances as cheaply as possible.
would you fold this hand if you chekced behind and the turn was K and villian bets?

Dave

I've actually learned a nice bit from this post. I should post up some more dodgy HHs of mine. Cheers.

ollyk1

Dave wrote:

I've actually learned a nice bit from this post. I should post up some more dodgy HHs of mine. Cheers.

Isn't that what this board is for? That and viscious personal abuse of course!!:rolleyes:

Fair play Dave for posting this hand. Very easy to say nothing when you know its doesn't reflect well on you but not why. I for one should probably post some hands in areas where I think I'm slightly overbetting on flops and not extracting value bets on the river. But some of these hands are playing style issues and are in the context of an overal gameplan (for a particular tournie) so it can be difficult to explain my thoughts on the wider tournie issues precisely and how that impacts on a particular hand.

fuzzbox

ianmc38 wrote:

Thatsm my thinking here as well. Checking here gives you no information. A bet of 300 is a nice feeler bet and in many cases i'm sure this will take down the pot. I would defo fold to the CR though.

If he checks and the turn is say a J, then he could be crippled by slow played trips and KJ will be a lot harder to lay down then.

Theres no real need to bet the flop. There are not many cards that can hit the turn that would scare us, and we should be quite suspicious of villains flop check.

If we check, then he might overplay QQ/JJ on later streets, and we keep the pot smaller if we are, indeed behind.

Hitman Actual

Gholimoli wrote:

would you fold this hand if you chekced behind and the turn was K and villian bets?

TBH, I genuinely find this hand to be very tricky, because I rarely allow myself to get into these types of situations. That's why I like the flop bet here, it gives me the info I need, for the reasons I already gave.

On one hand, once you play a hand like KJ, you're getting what you want when you flop the King. Otherwise there's no point in playing it in the first place. So if the action is check-check and a king comes on the turn, should you keep going with the hand? Not sure. The fact that you checked the flop may make villain believe that you dont have a king, and that his QQ (or whatever) is the best hand. A lot of weaker players in the fitz tourneys will check QQ on a K-high flop, but then bet the turn if it goes check-check. So you're still not sure where you are.

On the other hand, will villain check AK (a hand that you're worried about, as Ollie states) on a K-high flop? A good player might, but at this level? And if he does, will he then bet when he hits monster trips on the turn? A lot of Fitz players will bet their good hands on the turn for value. So, checking the flop definately doesn't give me any more info.

So for me, betting the flop (in this game!) makes my decision a lot easier. Although that's probably more of a reflection on my post-flop play, rather than anything else.:o

padser

Fold pre flop. Assuming his raising hand selection is JJ+ AK and maybe AQ you are behind to all of them and dominated in many of them...........It all comes back to the thread we had going a while ago about the Gap concept. KJ is absolute muck when faced with a pre flop raise.


To answer the question about 'if for some reason i was in the hand would i call at the point you folded'. No, i would fold. You are almost certainly outkicked.

Hectorjelly

Checking the flop gives you a chance to catch up if you need it, is good pot control with a marginal hand, keeps your hand hidden (which is important because if your opponent thinks you have nothing he will often bet very small letting you see a cheap show down) allows your opponent to overplay any hands worse than yours and lastly if your opponent is behind its likely he has 2 outs, where as you probably have 5

Gholimoli

Hectorjelly wrote:

Checking the flop gives you a chance to catch up if you need it, is good pot control with a marginal hand, keeps your hand hidden (which is important because if your opponent thinks you have nothing he will often bet very small letting you see a cheap show down) allows your opponent to overplay any hands worse than yours and lastly if your opponent is behind its likely he has 2 outs, where as you probably have 5

Hector am i misunderstanding this or you actually agreeing with me?:cool:

Hectorjelly

Gholimoli wrote:

Hector am i misunderstanding this or you actually agreeing with me?:cool:

I agree completely with you!