How are Irish teachers treating their pupils?

Vangelis

My impression, from a movie and a small number of personal stories, is that Irish teachers are violent, or at least were so perhaps 10 years ago. They hit their students and punish them physically when they haven't done their homework, refuse to answer when spoken to etc. My impression is that this applies specifically to Catholic schools.

This made me think that an Irish school must be a terrible place to live, or at least to be a student.

I'd be very happy if people here could share their personal experience and impressions as of course, Irish people know more about this than me, a foreigner.

segadreamcast

Vangelis wrote:

My impression, from a movie and a small number of personal stories, is that Irish teachers are violent, or at least were so perhaps 10 years ago. They hit their students and punish them physically when they haven't done their homework, refuse to answer when spoken to etc. My impression is that this applies specifically to Catholic schools.

This made me think that an Irish school must be a terrible place to live, or at least to be a student.

I'd be very happy if people here could share their personal experience and impressions as of course, Irish people know more about this than me, a foreigner.

I'm sure people will give you a far more comprehensive account than I but, from my experience in a Christian Brothers School, there is no longer any physical abuse whatsoever in Irish schools... that has been gone for the last twenty years.

Irish school is now modernised and similar to many of its European counterparts - none moreso than in Britain, though it's widely viewed that our education system is of a higher quality... Personally, I loved my school experience in both primary and second level.

Gaillimhtaibhse

Vangelis wrote:

My impression, from a movie and a small number of personal stories, is that Irish teachers are violent, or at least were so perhaps 10 years ago. They hit their students and punish them physically when they haven't done their homework, refuse to answer when spoken to etc. My impression is that this applies specifically to Catholic schools.

This made me think that an Irish school must be a terrible place to live, or at least to be a student.

I'd be very happy if people here could share their personal experience and impressions as of course, Irish people know more about this than me, a foreigner.

Abuse makes for good news copy and film story line. Who makes movies that sell with a plot that shows happy children learning a lot?:rolleyes:

Vangelis

Gaillimhtaibhse, that's a good point. That movie was about three girls who were sent to a Catholic girl school in the 1960's. They were beaten till their bled, by their superiors - nuns. I don't think this was a regular school were you were taught maths and languages. At least they had to learn the Bible.

But I've heard many other schools were like this too.

One question I forgot to ask was, how has the beating affected people in later times? Is there any record of this?

Trotter

I can assure you , as a teacher in Ireland , that if I physically, verbally, or mentally assaulted a student, Id expect to lose my job. There are so many directives and rules for teachers nowadays that you must always respect the rights and dignity of every pupil... even if they are threatening yours.

Ireland is extremely modern in its teaching and education policies, and although people may complain, we are doing better, as a nation, at educating our kids than many other countries in Europe.

I cant talk for how it was in the 60's in school, because I didnt go to school til '85. Im sure some disgraceful things happened in many classes, and I would hope that the victims have some avenue to express their feelings on the matter today .

Dont assume that today's teachers in Ireland are violent because of seeing films and hearing about incidents in the 60's. Educating children is one of the things that Ireland does best.

Mod Note.. I dont think its appropriate allow this thread to go down the road of Christian Brother bashing that goes into nasty detail. Its too easy to name names and schools etc, and I wont be letting that happen for obvious reasons. In saying that, Im not defending or accusing anyone or any group of teachers, I just want to avoid trouble as the thread develops

Vangelis

Trotter, thank you for your input. It's good to hear from a teacher too.
However, it is not my intention to create a debate whith negative religious outbursts, defensiveness or any flaming. If that happens, I cannot take responsibility for that.

Trotter, you're saying that Ireland is one of the countries with best education. I'm curious to know... In what ways?

Nevyn

Teachers have not hit spanked or slapped students here for about the last 20 years.
Growingup I did get hit with two differing types of rulers and thumped on the head with heavy books while in primary school but we were the last class that
teacher who was a nun ever had as she then retried.

Hagar

I'm a bit older than most posters and I can tell you the Christian Brothers are not Christian. If anyone attempted to do to my children what was done to us I would beat them till I was too tired to continue. Then I would lie on top of them so that they couldn't get away till I recovered enough to start beating them again. They should all be in gaol. Either for doing what they did or for colusion by turning the blind eye.

kittex

I agree Vangelis, as others have said, a story about people enjoyng school wouldn't make very interesting viewing.

The system in Ireland, is rather good, if too exam focussed at times.
As far as I can tell, literacy and numeracy are not as big a problem as they are in (a few) other European countries and pupils are encouraged to stay on until 18, unlike the UK for example where most leave at 16.

There is also a broader base given up to that point. In some countries for example pupils can drop English and Maths after 15. In Ireland you must do both for the Leaving Certificate.

One lecturer at a UK university told me they loved Irish students and wanted to recruit as many as they could, because of this. In his experience, they were more mature (being 18 rather than 16/17) and had a broader base of knowldege, with many having being taught classics for example.

I don't currently teach in ireland - so perhaps other teachers can fill me in on my next point - the impression I get is that Irish Education does not pander to the teaching fads other countries can often follow and is considered a more stable system.

On the dowsn side, the lack of choice in subjects, places in and routes to Higher Education, can often lead to high stress levels for students, expecially at the Leaving Cert stage.

Trotter

Vangelis wrote:

it is not my intention to create a debate whith negative religious outbursts, defensiveness or any flaming.

Dont worry, I didnt see that as your intention, its just from experience I know that other could see it as an opportunity to post up unsuitable info. Your request for information and opinions is perfectly valid and I hope you get plenty of information!

Hitchhiker's Guide to...

Don't think anyone sees violence in schools these days. The movie you were talking about was The Magdelene Sisters. It was about a pretty shameful experience in Ireland in general. There is so much oversight these days, and kids being aware of their rights, that you wouldn't see any issues like this these days imho...

Vangelis

Hagar, who were the Christian Brothers? (They sound aweful!)

kittex, thanks for writing! I get the impression that the Irish school system is very flexible, allowing for a broad choice of subjects. It seems like Irish pupils can take few subjects and focus on getting good results in these.

Unlike the school system in my country. I have a total of 17 grades, almost all of them in different subjects. Many subjects are compulsory and the overload of work and school lessons often lead to a lot of headache, tiredness and general discomfort at school for many pupils.

The homework is unsurmountable: Never did any one pupil in my class manage to do all their homework. And the teachers had no understanding for it. We also go to school til the age of 19. So we have three years of upper second level education.

If there are better conditions in Irish schools than this, I can understand why Irish schools we so popular.

Did Irish pupils have the same rights nowadays as 20++ years ago?
How did violence against pupils pass unnoticed and unpunished?

Hagar

The Christian Brothers are/were a religous order within the Catholic Church.
in Ireland. They ran most of the public education system for boys up to college level. They also ran homes for young offenders and orphans.

A shocking number of these people carried out systematic physical, sexual and emotional abuse on generations of our youth since 1802 with the passive support/knowledge of sucessive governments, the police force, the judiciary, their superiors in Ireland and their Superiors in Rome. These individuals preyed on our young people like wolves and nobody stopped them. Up to a few years ago, many sucessful complaint made againt one of these people just resulted in them being moved to another school or institution where they carried on as before. They enjoyed virtual immunity from the law in the priest ridden society that was Ireland.

In recent times there have been many court cases brought by victims of this abuse. The number of people joining this religous order has plummeted almost to zero.

I personally witnessed events that I could not publish in this forum. I was not abused. I fought back, I physically had to fight one of those Christian Brothers to a standstill to protect myself. In a respectable "normal" school in our capital city Dublin. I am not unique.

Google for "Christian Brothers in Ireland". What you find will make grim reading.

Trotter

Can I ask everyone here to read my advice above about the kind of generalisations and Christian Brother criticism that Id prefer didnt go on here.
Im not saying certain individuals in the Christian Brothers order dont deserve the utmost criticism. However, I am certain that there are many good and decent Christian Brothers and for that reason, I do not want to see every person in that order being labelled as one thing or another.

Im happy to let this discussion go on, once my concerns are noted by all who are posting.

Vangelis

Hagar, that's aweful. But just the information that I could need.
You were brave who stood up to them.

Sure thing, Trotter. Not all hitmen are evil. And that's true.

But Hagar, you say systematic abuse. Do you mean that they conspired to abuse children/youths?

Hitchhiker's Guide to...

the most important thing is that irish schools are traditionally ranked amongst the best in the world - think we are ranked about 10-12th in the world. Any negative stories about the past are purely a matter for historians and lawyers and (sadly) any victims.

I went to a CBS school and it was brilliant, with great, caring, and excellent teachers.

Any discussion about CBS in the context that you are looking for Vangelis is not a matter for a teaching/lecturing forum imho - it is a discussion of society at that time, and perhaps some alledged incidents. But any discussion of a specific organisation is probably subject to the legal process and not appropriate for this forum....(in my understanding of what this forum is for).

...obviously, this is not for me to decide, but for Trotter...

Trotter

And oh how Trotter loves these decisions

Im happy to have it noted that the Christian Brothers played a considerable part, both positive and negative, in the education system in Ireland in the distant and recent past.

I acknowledge the sad stories that Ive heard about in the media depicting peoples' harrowing experiences in schools at the hands of those who should have had the childs wellbeing as a priority, but failed in this.

I also request that we all consider that matter as discussed in enough detail at this point as to give a background to the issue, and request that further discussion take place in a more suitable forum.

I hope this "judgement" is accepted and to the liking of all involved in this thread. Id prefer not to dictate what happens in the forum, but the above is my decision on this issue.

In short.. we've mentioned it, acknowledged it, and now its time to go right back to the original question..

How are Irish teachers treating their pupils.. present tense.

kittex

Trotter wrote:

and now its time to go right back to the original question..

How are Irish teachers treating their pupils.. present tense.

I have a rather specific question on this then

When I was at school in Ireland in the 80's and 90's, while they strived to reach a high standard, the style of teaching or teaching strategies employed in the classroom, were generally rather negative. Sarcasm, criticising, public humiliation etc were techniques employed to aid discipline.

This wasn't just a style employed in Ireland however, but was the style pre-90's in alot of courntries.

Modern teaching is very much towards positive behaviour management, using praise, more constructive comments, modelling etc

So, just wondering if this is how Irish teachers are treating their pupils now?

Trotter

Well speaking from personal experience, I try to be the kind of person the students listen to because they think they'll benefit from it.

If a kid can learn something with a smile on their face then I can go home feeling like they wont dread coming in the next day, and neither will I.

My teaching methods all develop from that goal. Now.. I get plenty of little messers and plenty of intimidation thrown my way, so I cant be goodie two shoes with those people. Fair, firm, and if at all possible, friendly.

I like trying to convince people that think they're stupid that they're actually not. You wont succeed for most of them, but its the one in 50 that makes the job worthwhile for me.

I talked a girl into staying in school last week when she was all set to leave early and "get a job". I managed to convince her that the leaving would help her in her goal of getting a job. Maybe she'll stay, maybe she wont.. but it felt like Id done something good anyway.

Its tough sometimes, but I have plenty of respect for the people in front of me. Hopefully most of them have the same for me. Ya cant win them all though.. thats the first thing any teacher needs to figure out for themselves.

kittex

I think you're right - it's really important to show respect for the pupils, but to also be firm with those crossing the line.

I've seen teachers walk into classes with a view that the kids in front of them are trouble, being prejudiced about what they're like and getting back terrible behaviour.
The the same class, greeted with a smile, shown and expected to respond with respect and good manners and then behave wonderfully.

There are many things beyond your control in the classroom, but you can always do your best to have a positive ethos in your class.