Can we change?

esskay

Hi folks,
I am looking for ideas/thoughts on how Ireland has changed in the past decade and how we can change it for the better in the future. The reason I ask is because my wife and I are doing some travelling in South East asia and what we see here everyday is changing our outlook on life drastically. Before we left we both working, have our own house and have no kids. We have 2 cars and I had a company van. I never realised how much money we wasted day to day on consumer junk and how skewed our view on life was.
I am in Cambodia at the moment and if people in Ireland could see how lucky they are and how poor people all over the world are they might be a bit less eager to waste money. I personally have had a real change in the way i look at things and will really change my lifestyle when I get home. Last night I bought a pregnant woman with a child in her arms some baby food cause she could not afford it. People with no legs (landmine victims) thank you profusely for giving them 25c (1000 riel). these people have no government support of any kind, its survival of the fittest. You lose, you die. Yet we are willing to throw money away daily. Believe me , i was as guilty as anyone, but how do we change it????? We all see the ad's on TV for charities looking for money and I reckon many people (like I was) are immune to the images shown of people in poverty, it is not part of our day to day reality, just pictures in a box, easily forgotten. What can we do? What will we do? I know my post is not very well thought out but I just had to see if I could do something.
One thing I intend to do is eat less meat (not vegetarian, just not meat for every meal). I remember reading that if no one eat meat the grain used to feed cows would feed most of the population of the world thus practiaclly ending starvation. I know everyone won't give up meat but if we could eat a little less it may help.
I am looking for changes to lifestyle that will have a positive impact on the world in general. I know it might take generations to change but we have to make a start somewhere.
Any ideas?????
Thanks for reading this,
Steve

plonk

Its hard for a mass of people to change without them seeing it first hand or it being enforced. Everyone knows people are dying in the third world, but in all honesty there is shag all we can do about it. People have there own problems and lifes to worry about. I know each year we are spending more and more money on material things but thats the way the developed world has gone. It revolves around money. I read in the indo today that 7trillion dollars would be enough to change the world, prevent global warming stop poverty and depression. But where do we get this cash? Normal people can do their bit but it will never be enough to stop it, it will only help a small group of people in a small area. The world is wrong but there is not a lot we can do about it.
The goverments of developed countries are there best hope

AngryBadger

I think in a much broader sense what you're talking about should be applied ubiquitously, not just to people in the developing world.

Unless i totally misunderstood your post, you're saying that irish people nowadays are a fairly spoilt selfish lot in some regards. This is true, but as they say "charity starts at home". there are a lot of ways to implement a more progressive attitude right here in ireland. I'm not saying that people in other parts of the world don't need help, or shouldn't get help, but i am saying if you feel like doing something positive, look closer to home, and you'll find a lot of very worthy causes.

These don't necessarily have to be high-profile issues, there are a lot of unseen problems that you could make a huge difference addressing. not to be cliché about it, but there are scores of people with no-one to listen to their woes, and some of them have very serious woes. You could join a voluntary group like the samaritans, or SVP, of any of these groups. You could simple take up a subscription with the likes of Trocaire, or GOAL, or again any of a dozen other groups. There are groups set up to help children from schools in disadvantaged areas. Even if all you do is donate your old clothes to charity shops, these are all things that can make a real difference in peoples lives.

My point is it's laudible to want to help people, and I do agree that irish people have become very selfish in the last few decades, and there are lots of things you can do right here in ireland to help people both at home and abroad.

esskay

I agree with what you both have said, and thanks for your replies. What I am looking for is a way to appeal to people to make those small changes to their own lives that will result in bigger changes
Plonk said "People have there own problems and lifes to worry about" and three months ago I would have agreed, but the problems we have are inconsequential when you look at the bigger picture. We won't die if these problems are not resolved. How can this be show to the people who live in luxury every day of their lives? The likes of TV and the media in general have a lot to answer for, they impress in people all the wrong values (not all of them of course) but our heads are being filled with paranoid rubbish (like the soaps, every problem is a crisis, social life/standing means everything) which fills our lives with useless thoughts. I am trying not to generalise, not everyone is the same, many people do care greatly, but how do we get the others to change too, the people who cannot come and see it firsthand?
In response to AngryBadger, I do intend to become an active participant in some form of voluntary group/charity but is it enough? More people need to become aware of the consumer culture that is sweeping the world. Even here in asia the difference can be seen. A lot of the poorer people we have met appear happy, indifferent to their situation, they get by. But the richer people nearly always want more, once the first bite of the consumer apple is taken the taste is irresitiable. What I am looking for is ideas/thoughts that might spark a change in more people i.e. A campaign or message that can spread. How do we get across the message that we live in luxury and that it is time to share a bit. I guess I am just annoyed and want to do something.
Steve

It is all clear in my head until I go to write it down

Paddy20

Can we change ?...

Yes we can, and each individual can help simply by supporting voluntary organisations, such as:- www.makepovertyhistory.org/

This voluntary org, has helped enormously, and continues to do so, but it still needs your personal support, which can be as simple as joining and adding your name 'as a member' to their ongoing campaign, and joining is free and effective.

Just my 2cs worth.

Great thread .

P.:cool:

AngryBadger

esskay wrote:

the problems we have are inconsequential when you look at the bigger picture

See, I have to contest this, because I feel that people's needs are to some extent dictated by their circumstances. Obviously if it's cold I'll value a blanket, but if I live in a house with central heating then I have little/no value on a blanket. I think there may be a little clarity needed on this point.

esskay wrote:

The likes of TV and the media in general have a lot to answer for, they impress in people all the wrong values (not all of them of course) but our heads are being filled with paranoid rubbish (like the soaps, every problem is a crisis, social life/standing means everything) which fills our lives with useless thoughts.

Well to be fair the media is just a product of capitalist notions, their products are always going to appeal to what people want, and what people want is sexy, hyper fast, ultra-modern television...oh ad reality TV shows. The problem in changing attitudes starts with how we raise our kids and the values we teach them. So if you have kids then you have the potential to be a far, far greater force for change in the world than you can ever imagine by just raising your kids properly. But not by vicarious living through your kids, that's bad. :rolleyes:

esskay wrote:

I am trying not to generalise, not everyone is the same, many people do care greatly, but how do we get the others to change too, the people who cannot come and see it firsthand?

See i think you need to be clear on what you're trying to say here. Are you talking about everyone giving all their worldly possessions to the poor, because that's just not going to happen.

esskay wrote:

In response to AngryBadger, I do intend to become an active participant in some form of voluntary group/charity but is it enough? More people need to become aware of the consumer culture that is sweeping the world.

I believe it is enough. I think we're both saying that at least part of the problem is people's attitudes, but changes in those attitudes can't be expected to start with people hundreds of miles away. It's too much to expect people to grasp a notion that isn't close to them, touching them in some way. So I believe one of the best places to start is locally, and I'd re-iterate that this doesn't have to be a voluntary organisation, it can be as simple as being nicer to people, being more considerate of our elders, all that kind of thing, because when all's said, what we're talking about is diminished awareness, and consideration of people who aren't as well off as we are, whether the lacking is financial, or emotional. I think if you can get people to be more aware of problems around them, then you can start to see them become aware of problems far away from them.

esskay wrote:

A campaign or message that can spread. How do we get across the message that we live in luxury and that it is time to share a bit. I guess I am just annoyed and want to do something.
Steve

Not so sure how we'd achieve this just yet, I'll try to get back with something in the morning boss Seriously though, I think one of the best ways to show people a better way, is to actually show them, don't shove it down their throats, don't try to flaunt moral superiority, or guilt them into it, just be more considerate, and let people see you being more considerate. Good ideas take time, they take root in peoples heads and they start to grow into something more than the casual observation that started it off.

That said, I'm not downplaying campaigns or big gestures, I'm all for that too, where appropriate, but i honestly believe that the best way to effect real, lasting change fop the better is to lead by example.

the_syco

Whats the point in working our asses off, if we don't spend the money on items that give us happiness? Sure, there are lots of people out there, dead, nearly dead, worse than dead (I won't say whats worse than death, as it'll offend people), but why should I give a percentage of my money to someone I don't know, when it won't benifit me, nor help me in any way, except help my money, what little I earn, get squandered. Minimum wage is abitch, but hey, its life.[/rant]

AngryBadger

the_syco wrote:

Whats the point in working our asses off, if we don't spend the money on items that give us happiness?

Ignoring the fact that you're OT, surely you want the happiness before the buying of things right?

esskay

the_syco wrote:

Whats the point in working our asses off, if we don't spend the money on items that give us happiness? Sure, there are lots of people out there, dead, nearly dead, worse than dead (I won't say whats worse than death, as it'll offend people), but why should I give a percentage of my money to someone I don't know, when it won't benifit me, nor help me in any way, except help my money, what little I earn, get squandered. Minimum wage is abitch, but hey, its life.[/rant]

The average wage in cambodia is 20-30 dollars a month, try living on that! Plus they work from dusk till dawn, no nice 9-5 for them. If you lose your job you get dole, lose a leg and you get disability, none of that for these people

the_syco

AngryBadger wrote:

Ignoring the fact that you're OT, surely you want the happiness before the buying of things right?

Yes, but living in a hostel, with little or no privacy, wouldn't give you as much happiness as having your own room, or flat, would. Some things you need to have to make you happy.

esskay wrote:

The average wage in cambodia is 20-30 dollars a month, try living on that! Plus they work from dusk till dawn, no nice 9-5 for them. If you lose your job you get dole, lose a leg and you get disability, none of that for these people

20 or 30... here, or there? Considering that €60 will let you have a comfortable week in some parts of China, and that you'd need about €400 to live comfortably a week here, the place you live in does matter.

As for 9 to 5... if I can get it, I'll work it, but untill then I'll just do shift work. As for dawn to dusk, I'd say thats farm work, or something similair, and you'll find anywhere, in a farm, its the same. Yes, 9-5 farmers do exist, but they don't own the actual farm, they just work there.

=-=

If I was to work from dusk to dawn, I'd need a flash light, tbh. If I were to work dawn to dusk, and I had no other option, I'd do them hours. You have not stated wheather 30 is good or bad pay there.

For some odd reason, if you tell someone that some people get payed one fifth of what we earn, they feel pity for them.

I doubt they'd feel pity if they knew that everything over there cost one fifth than it does here, and that if they did earn what we earned, their ecomony wouldn't survive. Sometimes a little for everyone is better than lots for few.

coweyed

I think its the system that will need to change if we have any hope of helping countries less fortunate than ours..

Its the same problem as we are having with the environment, until it becomes economically viable to stop cutting down our forests and polluting the air, its not going to happen.. In a capitalist world, money and greed are kings and dictate the way corporations and governments behave..

So the aim of the kyoto protocol was to attach a negative monotary value to pollution so it would start to make economic sense not to pollute..

So how could the same principals be applied so try to even the playing field of the worlds countries, financially speaking, and help the poverty stricken countries off their knees so they can help themselves? Its a tough question..

Ultimatly, a lot of the problems with these countries can be laid at the feet of their corrupt governments.. Also, the western instutions like the IMF and the world bank can take a part of the blame.. They lend these governments billions of dollars, only for the politicians to squander it on lavish lifestyles and other projects when ultimatly the poor pple are left to pay it off, long after the government has changed and the money disappeared.

In some cases also the IMF has attached strings to the loans and forced these countries to open their markets up to western goods, privatise water + electricity helping western corporations, share holders + employees make more money but not the poor man working the land.

We protect our own industries and markets but force these countries to open theirs which we flood with our goods, some of which are viable only because of massive subsidies given.

So by joining up with Amnesty or similar pressure groups and taking part in letter writing campaigns and raising pples awareness of these situations, pressure is put on them to change.. Transparecy is the key and the media needs to highlight these issues more..
But are most pple willing to listen? I don't think so.

Also by trying to help the western counties drop the debt against these countries will be a major boost, something the make poverty history campaign was pretty successful at.

So theres a few of the problems the way i see things..

the_syco

coweyed wrote:

it becomes economically viable to stop cutting down our forests and polluting the air, its not going to happen.. In a capitalist world, money and greed are kings and dictate the way corporations and governments behave.

OT, but this made me think of Bush's recent speech about funding non-oil based machine's. The greedy, who don't want to spend loads on oil, have the option of spending money to fun research into non-oil based cars, etc. It gives us a possible "healthier" option, and also helps us by finding other sources of energy.

esskay

Syco, just to clarify the wages issue, the average $20-$30 a month in Cambodia. And with a family to feed that does not go far even if goods are cheaper. You may need e400 a week to live in ireland but its not too hard to get, most of our country has a fairly good education which helps enormously.

As regards work, the working day for nearly everyone in asia starts at 6am and hardly any business closes before 11pm (banks being the major exception). In a number of restaurants we visited for breakfast, the same staff are serving dinner in the evening and drinks at night. 85% of the population of cambodia live outside the citys and the vast majority of them are farmers. They live in bamboo huts with leaves for a roof and most have no electricity or sanitary facilities. I slept in a bamboo hut for two nights when trekking and believe me they are definately not comfortable. And your flashlight comment is just taking the piss

And be honest, who here has not had help from their family at some stage along the way? I would not have a house of my own if my father was not a building contractor. A huge number of families in Cambodia, India, Pakistan, Nepal, Myanmar and Northern Thailand are so poor that only boys are of value because they can work in the fields, girls are considered an extra mouth to feed and are sold in to prostitution at 11-16 years of age (these are not the only countries, just the main ones). This is so common now it is not frowned upon in a lot of places as it may be the only way for these families to survive. I got this information from a book called "sex slaves" written by an english student as a thesis for a Doctorate, she got her information from the girls themselves. This book is a very disturbing read, but worth it, a real eye opener. We saw countless young girls with older western men in Phnom Pehn and Bangkok and most of this "trade" is invivsible as they cater for mainly asian men behind closed doors, so we only saw a tiny fraction of what goes on. I know this is a problem in most countries but it is really bad in asia. In my opinion prostitution is a woman letting a man rape her for money.

Coweyed, I agree with you on all your points. For example, they are only allowed to use the loan money for certain activities, mainly production of natural resources, but are not allowed to process these resources. They have to sell the resources to western countries and then buy back the processed goods (with profit being made by the western countries of course). A good example of this is coffee, grown by the poor countries, shipped away and then bought after it has been processed. I don't think I have seen a shop yet (even in the middle of a non-tourist area) that doesn't sell pringles! I am sure potato chips can't be that hard to make that they have to import them. I won't start on Bush as this will only make me really mad :-) if the U.S. govt gave a damn they would have signed up to the Kyoto treaty, instead they offered to pay to bring 3rd world countries below the agreed pollution levels so they could go on polluting. It all about the money for them. Plus the oil based corporations are huge contributors to the election campaigns and have very powerful lobby groups. They will not want to see non-oil based machines in general use until every drop of profit has been extracted from the sale of oil and oil based goods.

Corruption if rife as you said, but look at Irelands government :-) not exactly saints. Take the gas fields which sparked the Rossport controversy. We sold the right to the gas with absolutely no option to get a cut of the profit. Even Nigeria, when they sold rights to oil fields are getting 50% (afaik) of the profit being made. Someone in Ireland (Ray Burke?) got a huge pay-off in my opinion. Shell stand to make Billions off this deal, imagine what the government could have done with the money they should have made, we could have be paying a lot less tax for one thing and it could have been used to help a LOT of people in poverty in our own country. But shell will get it all now. But the corruption in asia extends a lot further down the chain in to everyday life. In cambodia the traffic police are known to fine people on mopeds for driving with their lights on during the day, I even met a guy who tried to sell me his badge for e10.

But what I am looking for are ideas on how to change the perceptions of people from 1st world countries of what they have and what others do not have. How can we try to make it a fairer world to live in? Are there simple things people could change in their everyday lives that might have an impact , thigns like eating less meat like I mentioned in my first post? Things that will lessen our countries consumption of resources. Maybe if we come up with something we could pass the ideas on to charities to use in campaigns? Also I would appreciate it if anyone can recommend any good books I should read to further my knowledge on this subject.
Thanks,
Steve

Saruman

Im curious how eating less meat and consuming less resources will in any way benefit someone 8000 miles away?

I understand where you are coming from but there is feck all we can do. Our economy requires us to live how we do. sure we can be a little more exonomical with our money etc but that will not help anyone.
You forget we have poverty here too. Very little maybe but we still have homeless etc.

A lot of 3rd world countries have corrupt greedy governments that keep the country like it is because they have plenty of money etc and do not care about their citizens.

Im not sure how you intend on changing that.. and changing our attitude will make no difference to the ultimate goal of reducing poverty in other countries.

esskay

Saruman wrote:

Im curious how eating less meat and consuming less resources will in any way benefit someone 8000 miles away?

Breeding livestock for human consumption is very wasteful. A lot of countries use grain based feeds. The amount of grain used to feed a cow could feed many more people than the cow will when it is slaughtered. Me eating less meat will do feck all, but if everyone did it would add up.

Saruman wrote:

I understand where you are coming from but there is feck all we can do. Our economy requires us to live how we do. sure we can be a little more exonomical with our money etc but that will not help anyone.
You forget we have poverty here too. Very little maybe but we still have homeless etc.

The only person who decides how you live your life is you.

Saruman wrote:

A lot of 3rd world countries have corrupt greedy governments that keep the country like it is because they have plenty of money etc and do not care about their citizens.

Maybe if western people change their attitudes, people in less well off countries will realise that if they reject the government they have or revolt (do whatever it takes) and change also, they will not end up as we are now, which in my opinion is not a good way to live either. I would like to see technology used to its full potential to provide the basic necessities for a happy life for everyone. Poverty breeds corruption.

Saruman wrote:

Im not sure how you intend on changing that.. and changing our attitude will make no difference to the ultimate goal of reducing poverty in other countries.

All i am trying to do is change myself for the better and see if we can combine our efforts to try to get more people to do the same. If peoples attitudes change governments will change to accomodate thier views. If enough people want something what is stopping it from happening? Maybe my idea of what makes a better person is wrong, if so please let me know what you think would be right?
Steve.