Hand Speed

GerryRyan

Came across this clip the other day:

Hand Speed

Questions : What martial art would this be? It just says it's a sparring drill.

Even thought it's extremely fast, it doesn't look like there's a lot of force behind the strikes.
Either that or the sparring partner can take the hits very well.

What does everyone think?

padraigcarroll

looks like sticky hands? Maybe, wing Chun?
anyone??!

memphis

wooowww. Impressive stuff that!!

Michael O Leary

The two guys in the video are practitioners of Wing Tsun Kung-Fu and are practising an excercise called Chi-Sau or Sticky Hands. Chi-Sau is an excercise that allows you to feel any gaps in your opponents defences whenever hand contact is made. However rather than it just being a fancy exercise with no application it is a back up exercise should your first priority fail. This first priority is to step in and attack your attacker with punches, kicks, elbow, knees, etc should he come into your territory in order to attack you.

As I explained in another post recently there is a rule called Pareto's Principle which states that 20% of your work will achieve 80% of your results. I feel that this applies to Wing Tsun and that the aforementioned methods of striking your opponent will enable you to deal with most self-defence situations. While Chi-Sau will have a knock on effect and improve your ability to punch, kick, etc it is really geared for Plan B. This is why double hand sticky hand that you saw in the video is not taught for a minimum of one year. I also feel that Tai-Chi, Escrima and BJJ have similar supplementary exercises namely Push Hands, Hubud and clinching/rolling.

Now I know that the opponent in the video was not resisting however as I did not produce the video clip I cannot tell you what context the clip should be viewed under. The punches being distributed are called chain punches and as they are launched independent of the hips rotating, more of them can be launched in a shorter space of time. It does look as if the punches are not powerful however having been at the receiving end of punches like this for the past 13 years as well as dishing them out myself occasionally, they do hurt. As I explained to another contributer a few weeks ago the reason why they look weak is that it is a different method of punching than we have been using since we were kids so the power is less tangible to onlookers.

At this moment in time I cannot argue which type of punch is the more powerful however I would feel that it is better to launch 6 hard punches per second than 2 or 3 very hard punches per second. I found it interesting that in the thread, "Hardest Hitters on the Planet" some contributers felt that Karate practitioners delivered the most powerful strikes even though they studied Muay Thai hence the law of dimishing returns would indicate that once you can punch hard it is then better to spend your time working on other aspect such as mobility, etc rather than just spending your time training to punch harder.

Anyway lads I just wanted to answer the question posted and am not trying rant on about "my style being the best". I also practise and teach Escrima, my mother is a black belt in Aikido, my Wing Tsun and Escrima training partner is also an assistant instructor in Capeoira and I take an active interest in all martial arts. However I love practising and teaching Wing Tsun and if anyone has any genuine questions I would be more than happy to answer them.

Regards,

Michael O'Leary
www.wingtsun-escrima.ie

john kavanagh

"I also feel that Tai-Chi, Escrima and BJJ have similar supplementary exercises namely Push Hands, Hubud and clinching/rolling."

well in my experience the difference would be that when things go 'live' the clinching/rolling looks the same. watch 2 guys training clinch (what we call 'pummelling for position') and then watch 2 guys fighting, in the UFC or whatever, and the clinch work looks the same.

now compare that with the clip - i've never seen anything resembling hubud/push hands in a real situation. i know the thinking behind it - well you train this way and then this teaches you 'sensitivity' etc that will 'kick in' when things go live but i cant see why you just wouldn't substitute pummelling in place for hubud. its just as safe, teaches you sensitivity and when things go live there is almost no change required

Michael O Leary

This is just one video clip and is not representative of the Chi-Sau exercise.

First of all the students are taught how to do double hand "rolling" just to have the movements correct. Then the forward pressure in the limbs is 'switched on' so that if one student has an incorrect position the statemate will be broken and s/he will get hit almost by accident.

Then individual Wing Tsun sequences of movements are taken from the forms and practised in a relaxed manner in the Chi-Sau exercise. However the same thing happens that if someone makes a mistake and the stalemate is broken then again they get hit. Then when more movements are learned the student has a variety of options and as soon as the opponent makes a mistake such as a small lapse in forward pressure or leaves themselves open it can immediately be taken advantage of. At this stage the Wing Tsun practitioner can forget about the sequences of movements and spar with their 'uncooperative, resisting' opponent.

However Chi-Sau relates to a specific distance where physical contact is made and can be discarded in order to then spar in the Lat-Sau exercise which covers all distances from weapons distance to kicking, punching, elbow/knee, stand up grappling and ground distance. However if the student has a particular problem during sparring when contact has been made then in order to isolate the problem they go back to the chi-sau exercise.

Some people think that chi-sau is used for 'trapping' the opponents hands. However in Wing Tsun instead of chasing the opponents hand in order to control them instead we go for plan A and concentrate on punching our opponent in the head. If on the way to the head the fist meets resistant from the opponents hand then our hand will control the other hand for a split second before going back to punching the head. In order to isolate this movement we practise chi-sau.

I take the point about pummelling for position in clinchwork however there is a maxim in architecture that states, "form follows function". Chi-Sau is merely a supplementary exercise for Wing Tsun movements as clinchwork is for grapplers movements. As the movements in the arts are different so too will be the supplementary exercises.

Regards,

Michael O'Leary
www.wingtsun-escrima.ie

john kavanagh

"Chi-Sau is merely a supplementary exercise for Wing Tsun movements as clinchwork is for grapplers movements. As the movements in the arts are different so too will be the supplementary exercises."

well like i said saying one is a 'supplementary exercise as clinchwork is for grapplers' is incorrect. pummelling is not a 'supplementary' exercise it is THE exercise. after about a 3 min explanation (introduction) i can have 2 guys pummelling for position while throwing knees, elbows etc safely (isolation stage) even if they've never trained a day in their lives. this type of movement will look identical to that used in a 'real' fight by someone with 20years experience - just there timing will be a lot better.

as you explained above the chi-sau is like a stepping stone towards some goal of being able to 'sense' openings in the clinch range. in pummelling there is no stepping stone, pummelling is just that - you're in the swimming pool and your swimming!

Millionaire

wow! impressive hand speed!

Michael O Leary

john kavanagh wrote:

"Chi-Sau is merely a supplementary exercise for Wing Tsun movements as clinchwork is for grapplers movements. As the movements in the arts are different so too will be the supplementary exercises."

well like i said saying one is a 'supplementary exercise as clinchwork is for grapplers' is incorrect. pummelling is not a 'supplementary' exercise it is THE exercise. after about a 3 min explanation (introduction) i can have 2 guys pummelling for position while throwing knees, elbows etc safely (isolation stage) even if they've never trained a day in their lives. this type of movement will look identical to that used in a 'real' fight by someone with 20years experience - just there timing will be a lot better.

as you explained above the chi-sau is like a stepping stone towards some goal of being able to 'sense' openings in the clinch range. in pummelling there is no stepping stone, pummelling is just that - you're in the swimming pool and your swimming!

I said that chi-sau, hubud, push hands, clinchwork are similar exercises, similar being the operative word. Of course there are differences however I don't feel the need to point out the differences and to suggest that someone replace pummelling with chi-sau. I have never done pummelling before and therefore cannot comment however that will change on Sunday, yes?

"Pummelling is not a supplemtary exercise, it is the exercise." I think this is coming down to semantics. In my mind any exercise is a supplementary activity. Either you are fighting for real or you are not. Anything which prepares you for a real fight is a supplementary exercise.
We could go back and forwards playing with words but I have an auditing assignment for college to be handed in by 6 so I will leave you with the last word. Enjoy:)

Michael O'Leary
www.wingtsun-escrima.ie

Pro. F

john kavanagh wrote:

i've never seen anything resembling hubud/push hands in a real situation. i know the thinking behind it - well you train this way and then this teaches you 'sensitivity' etc that will 'kick in' when things go live but i cant see why you just wouldn't substitute pummelling in place for hubud. its just as safe, teaches you sensitivity and when things go live there is almost no change required

Maybe you've never seen anything like hubud in a real situation because you've never seen some filipinos fighting with blades. [or maybe you have]. i haven't seen a real blade fight between experienced practitioners but because of what i've heard (the common occurence of bladed combat in the philipines) if i was going to be in a fight with blades i'd want fma training. and hubud and metods like it is a part of that.
another reason to avoid clinch in the street, even if there are no blades, is multiple attackers. i think a wrestling style is essential to effective combat. But for me the style of wrestling should take into account the likelihood of blades and multiple attackers being involved.

Michael O Leary

Some good points Pro F. You also made some very subtle observations in the thread, "Hardest hitters on the planet" namely which is the most relevant, being able to punch really hard and breaking your hand or being able to deliver a really hard punch. No one else followed up on it.

To be fair to John having discussed the matter of clinchwork with him he states that in a self-defence situation he would not teach students to go for the clinch or submission on the ground but that the best thing is to stay standing while striking your opponent but that the clinch work would be plan B and the ground work plan C. It is for this reason that he defines himself as a MMA practitioner rather than solely a BJJ practitioner.

Best regards,

Michael O'Leary
www.wingtsun-escrima.ie

john kavanagh

spot on micheal!!

Pro. F

Plan A, B & C. ye, thats a good use of the MMA skills, i think.

Michael O'Leary: don't be saying i've made good points. aww shucks, i'm all embarresed now:o

Michael O Leary

:d

Michael O Leary

Michael O Leary wrote:

:d

That was supposed to be a big grin above but I made an arse of it.

Michael O'Leary
www.wingtsun-escrima.ie

El_mariachi

its wing chun you numb nuts named after the young orphan girl who learnd the art off the master ni mui.. not wing tsun after that bloody german sifu

Michael O Leary

El_mariachi wrote:

its wing chun you numb nuts named after the young orphan girl who learnd the art off the master ni mui.. not wing tsun after that bloody german sifu

Lol Ok, you are right and I am wrong. Sorry everyone :rolleyes:

Michael O'Leary
[url]www.wingchun-escrima.ie[/url]

Clive

El_mariachi wrote:

its wing chun you numb nuts named after the young orphan girl who learnd the art off the master ni mui.. not wing tsun after that bloody german sifu

It's Wing Chun you numb nuts - named after the young orphan girl who learned the art from the Master, Ng Mui; not Wing Tsun after that bloody German Sifu.

Michael O Leary

ThatGuy wrote:

Came across this clip the other day:

Hand Speed

Questions : What martial art would this be? It just says it's a sparring drill.

Even thought it's extremely fast, it doesn't look like there's a lot of force behind the strikes.
Either that or the sparring partner can take the hits very well.

What does everyone think?

Hi Roper,

This is the Wing Tsun guy.

Regards,

Michael O'Leary
www.wingtsun-escrima.ie

Doomspell

Jesus thats fast!! Very impressive:D