Garda chief blames drunk foreigner

dochasach

1

dochasach

Of course! It's those foreigners who don't drink lemonade, they're the cause of our road fatality rate. (It couldn't be lack of law enforcment, tests which encourage aggressive driving or the transportation ministers' total lack of leadership.) Non-nationals always makes good scapegoats. They can't vote! Last year THEY were blamed for our crime problem (even though non-nationals are more likely to be victims of home-grown racist crime), the year before THEY were blamed for Ireland's 3rd-world health-care system. (Even though the birthrate to hospital budget ratio was much higher in the 1980s.) And now... the Garda Commissioner is shocked to discover that a few non-nationals drink as much as the Irish and therefore he extrapolates that a higher percentage of non-nationals must be drunk drivers. I'd like to see statistics and an explanation of this "car inspection loophole". I'm a non-national and I have to pay road tax, insurance and NCT just like you. Many people are in prison in my home country for drunk driving. In Uraguay people have been executed for drink driving. I would be happy if Ireland consistently enforced speeding, drink driving and other road safety laws without regard for the race or ethnicity.

-- A lemonade drinking non-national.

http://breakingnews.iol.ie/news/story.asp?j=170541360&p=y7x54zx66 wrote:

Garda chief's warning over drunk foreign drivers
25/01/2006 - 17:39:29

Some foreign nationals in Ireland are drinking heavily at weekends and getting involved in fatal road accidents, Garda Commissioner Noel Conroy said today.

Mr Conroy also told the Oireachtas Transport Committee that gardaí were powerless to seize uninsured and untaxed cars driven by immigrants.

The Commissioner was today briefing the all-party body on road safety and traffic law enforcement.

Committee chairman John Ellis said to Mr Conroy: “Since Christmas we’ve had quite a number of non-nationals who have been killed on our roads.”

Mr Conroy told TDs and senators: “We note, particularly at weekends, that we have a major problem in that area. Some of the residents from those countries apparently drink quite a lot of alcohol at weekends.”

He referred to a recent accident involving foreign nationals in which three people were killed.

“We know that prior to that accident taking place there was a lot of alcohol consumed in a private house,” he said.

“We’re finding more and more difficulties in that area of dealing with non-nationals. Certain countries are causing us more problems than others.”

Mr Ellis also said that public representatives were getting continuous complaints about foreign nationals driving cars that are neither taxed or insured or don’t conform to the NCT regulations here.

He said that a favourite trick of the drivers was to say they don’t speak English.

“When they’re on the building site the next morning they have the best of English if the foreman and themselves come to grips over something,” he said.

“This is a major problem up and down the country.”

Mr Conroy who appeared at the Committee with Traffic Corps chief, Asst Commissioner Eddie Rock, said gardaí seize 10,000 vehicles every year if they have no insurance or if tax has expired by three months or more.

He said a loophole existed in the law if offenders were not Irish residents.

“Because they’re not, we cannot seize their car, even though they may not be taxed or insured. That problem is there,” he said.

He told the Committee he had raised the matter with Justice Minister and he may do something in the near future.

Mr Ellis said: “This is a serious problem but we can see where your hands are tied on this.

“As a Committee we should look at legislation drafted as soon as possible to allow you the power to seize any vehicle that doesn’t conform to the road standards.”

Mr Ellis also called for action on car auctions selling cars to people who drive them out of the auctions without tax or insurance.

Labour transport spokesperson Roisin Shorthall called for drink-driving checkpoints outside pub car parks.

“The majority of these people have not been drinking lemonade,” she said.

dochasach

Of course! It's those foreigners who don't drink lemonade, they're the cause of our road fatality rate. (It couldn't be lack of law enforcment, tests which encourage aggressive driving or the transportation ministers' total lack of leadership.) Non-nationals always makes good scapegoats. They can't vote! Last year THEY were blamed for our crime problem (even though non-nationals are more likely to be victims of home-grown racist crime), the year before THEY were blamed for Ireland's 3rd-world health-care system. (Even though the birthrate to hospital budget ratio was much higher in the 1980s.) And now... the Garda Commissioner is shocked to discover that a few non-nationals drink as much as the Irish and therefore he extrapolates that a higher percentage of non-nationals must be drunk drivers. I'd like to see statistics and an explanation of this "car inspection loophole". I'm a non-national and I have to pay road tax, insurance and NCT just like you. Many people are in prison in my home country for drunk driving. In Uraguay people have been executed for drink driving. I would be happy if Ireland consistently enforced speeding, drink driving and other road safety laws without regard for the race or ethnicity.

-- A lemonade drinking non-national.

http://breakingnews.iol.ie/news/story.asp?j=170541360&p=y7x54zx66 wrote:

Garda chief's warning over drunk foreign drivers
25/01/2006 - 17:39:29

Some foreign nationals in Ireland are drinking heavily at weekends and getting involved in fatal road accidents, Garda Commissioner Noel Conroy said today.

Mr Conroy also told the Oireachtas Transport Committee that gardaí were powerless to seize uninsured and untaxed cars driven by immigrants.

The Commissioner was today briefing the all-party body on road safety and traffic law enforcement.

Committee chairman John Ellis said to Mr Conroy: “Since Christmas we’ve had quite a number of non-nationals who have been killed on our roads.”

Mr Conroy told TDs and senators: “We note, particularly at weekends, that we have a major problem in that area. Some of the residents from those countries apparently drink quite a lot of alcohol at weekends.”

He referred to a recent accident involving foreign nationals in which three people were killed.

“We know that prior to that accident taking place there was a lot of alcohol consumed in a private house,” he said.

“We’re finding more and more difficulties in that area of dealing with non-nationals. Certain countries are causing us more problems than others.”

Mr Ellis also said that public representatives were getting continuous complaints about foreign nationals driving cars that are neither taxed or insured or don’t conform to the NCT regulations here.

He said that a favourite trick of the drivers was to say they don’t speak English.

“When they’re on the building site the next morning they have the best of English if the foreman and themselves come to grips over something,” he said.

“This is a major problem up and down the country.”

Mr Conroy who appeared at the Committee with Traffic Corps chief, Asst Commissioner Eddie Rock, said gardaí seize 10,000 vehicles every year if they have no insurance or if tax has expired by three months or more.

He said a loophole existed in the law if offenders were not Irish residents.

“Because they’re not, we cannot seize their car, even though they may not be taxed or insured. That problem is there,” he said.

He told the Committee he had raised the matter with Justice Minister and he may do something in the near future.

Mr Ellis said: “This is a serious problem but we can see where your hands are tied on this.

“As a Committee we should look at legislation drafted as soon as possible to allow you the power to seize any vehicle that doesn’t conform to the road standards.”

Mr Ellis also called for action on car auctions selling cars to people who drive them out of the auctions without tax or insurance.

Labour transport spokesperson Roisin Shorthall called for drink-driving checkpoints outside pub car parks.

“The majority of these people have not been drinking lemonade,” she said.

dochasach

remove me

Transport21 Fan

So what this genius is saying is that there was no drunk drivers in Ireland before the foreigers started arriving a few years back? Amazing!

Beekeeper

Are You a Garda?

The only way to find out the truth is to help yourself with your own
enquiries by answering the following. Answer these question correctly
and you too could be advertising Kit-Kat bars and Hibernian Insurance
on RTE.

You arrive at the scene of a hit and run accident. The victim is a
young Jackeen lad who has been knocked off his bike and is
unconscious. What is the first thing you do?

a. Check for vital life signs and put him in the recovery position.
b. Ask if anyone took the registration number of the vehicle involved.
c. Slap him till he comes round, ask where he stole the bike from and
throw him into the back of a Garda van.

Early one morning while off-duty, you find yourself first at the scene
of a break-in at a newsagents shop. The owner has yet to arrive. What
do you do?

a. Call the station and guard the shop to prevent further looting.
b. Hurry past; it's nothing to do with you.
c. Go inside and stuff your uniform with fags, and sell them later to
work colleagues from your locker at the station.

At work, your boss discovers that you have been systematically
incompetent and dishonest. You are looking at certain dismissal and a
possible prison sentence. What course of action would you take?

a. Resign in disgrace and accept your punishment.
b. Deny all charges and try to ride the storm.
c. Accept early retirement on the grounds of 'ill health' with a
****ing big lump sum and a full pension.

Driving home from the pub, you are pulled over by a Garda car and
breathalysed. The roadside test proves positive. What do you do?

a. Admit the offence and vow to change your ways.
b. Contest the result and demand a blood test at the
station.
c. Wink at your old mate from Templemore and drive merrily on your
way.

In the bathroom one morning, you notice that the toothpaste tube has
been squeezed from the middle, and the top left off. What course of
action do you take?

a. Forget about it and just brush your teeth
b. Ask your wife children not to do it again
c. Lock each member of the family in a separate room and keep them
awake for 5 days. Disorientate them with violent `Nice & Nasty'
mood swings and lead each one to believe that the others have made
signed statements blaming them. When their will is broken, hand
them a brief and innocuous statement to sign, the last two pages of
which are blank and to which you later add a fabricated confession.

What sort of person were you at school?

a. Studious and academic.
b. Sporting and competitive.
c. An oafish bully, pickpocket and thief with no friends.

What do you consider the most important skill you bring to your
profession?
a. An ability to organise and work as a member of a team.
b. The capacity to solve problems quickly and imaginatively.
a. Being over 5 foot 10.

dochasach

How many gards are in Ireland? No more than a couple thousand right? At least 2 have killed people whilst drink driving: this one
http://breakingnews.iol.ie/news/story.asp?j=170230720&p=y7xz3y4z6
and the gard who served no time and is now a taxi driver.

Let's assume there are 2000 gards in Ireland, so 0.1% have killed whilst drink driving. Now, according to http://www.workpermit.com/news/2005_11_11/uk/new_immigrants_to_ireland_buying_homes.htm
there are approximately 350,000 foreign nationals living in Ireland. If non-nationals had the same 0.1% drink driving manslaughter rate as the gardi, 350 people would have been killed by foreign drink drivers. Clearly this isn't the case, so this "Safety blitz to target drink-drive immigrants" (http://www.unison.ie/irish_independent/stories.php3?ca=9&si=1547503&issue_id=13583) would be much more effective if it were a "safety blitz to target drink-drive gardi."

Sarsfield

I haven't seen the news today so I can't comment on the main subject of the thread but just want to point out that current Garda strength is somewhere in the region of 12,000 not 2000.

Just to highlight the dangers of making assumptions (whether it's about Gardai or foreigners). How wrong those assumptions can be.

Mailman

I think the statements are there to apply pressure on the legislators/politicians.
At present the gardai have very little power to force non-nationals to observe our road traffic laws.

BaldiePablo

Whilst it is very easy to jump on the band wagon and blame the Gardai for all of this (no surprise there!!), there is still a drink driving problem in Ireland and the threat of imprisonment or licence withdrawl doesnt seem to be doing the trick. What we need is tougher laws to impliment change (ie. permanent expulsion from the roads, longer jail terms, stint in Guantanemo Bay etc.). This is not necessarily the fault of the Gardai but a shortfall of our government. It is the Gardai who catch the offenders but the government who decide the punishment.
On the subject of Foreign Nationals being part of the problem, of course they are. Just as much as the rest of the drink driving 'national' population of Ireland. The statement was based upon statistics readily available to anybody who wishes to read them. There is no point in hiding behind prejudice claims or a blame culture ... these are simply the facts.

spockety

I didn't see him say anything which would suggest he's attempting to make scapegoats out of non-nationals.

There is obviously a very real problem with people coming to live here, yet abusing loopholes in our laws by not registering their vehicles, not paying tax, and possibly not having the level of insurance required should they be involved in an accident.

I think it's great that someone in authority has finally acknowledged that there is a big problem in this area. Let's get them registered, let's get them paying tax, let's get their cars NCT'd, and let's get them insured.

Either that, or get them off my ******* roads.

MorningStar

I was hit while cycling by a UK reg car that was speeding up the bus lane. He kept going at massive speed up the road going in and out of the bus lane.

The cops could have done little to him had they got reports of the car reg or if the stopped him.

There certainly is a problem with the current laws and how they apply to cars registerd outside this country and people using non-irish drivers licence.

BaldiePablo

Get done for no tax yesterday did we Beekeeper??

MrPudding

MorningStar wrote:

The cops could have done little to him had they got reports of the car reg or if the stopped him.

Correct me if I am wrong but you are talking sh1t. He is driving a foreign reg car. That is it. Was it a diplomatic car? You people driving foreign regged cars automatically get diplomatic immunity? He commited a crime, that crime was hit and run. Are you telling me that because the offense was committed in a foreign car they could not arrest him?

My take on the statement is he is actually talking about a couple of different things. He mentions non-nationals drinking and also the inability to impound un-taxed, un-insured or unsafe foreign reg cars.

It seems to me that these are two different things. I can see how their inability to impound a car would he an problem when trying to enforce laws with regards to the vehicle but I do not see how it would be a problem enforcing laws when the person would have broken a law regardless of the origin of the car the offense was committed in.

What I mean is, the car did not commit the hot and run or do the drink driving or break the speed limit (I no it actuall did but it is not sentient and did not make the choice itself.) The driver did.

To me it seems like a bit of a cop (pardon the pun) out. Do anyone actually know if there is a legal reason why a person cannot be aressted ot charged with an offense simply because his car does not have Irish plates?

If not then it is pure lazyness on the part of the cops.

MrP

Lennoxschips

“We know that prior to that accident taking place there was a lot of alcohol consumed in a private house,” he said.

Aha. You see, native Irish drink driving is OK, because the drinking takes place at a Public House. A private house is a different matter altogether.

dochasach

Sarsfield wrote:

I haven't seen the news today so I can't comment on the main subject of the thread but just want to point out that current Garda strength is somewhere in the region of 12,000 not 2000.

Just to highlight the dangers of making assumptions (whether it's about Gardai or foreigners). How wrong those assumptions can be.

12,000 Garda? O.K. now I'll have to post another thread asking, "Where the #@$&(* are they?" good grief! It took an hour for a garda to come the 200 meters from the garda station to a bus when a (drunken Irish national -- if you must know) passenger was causing an incident. When (uhh... drunken Irish) lads were vandalizing some homes late at night, I was told that there was only one garda covering the two villages so it took 45 minutes to respond, by then the lads had gone on to another house.

As far as assumptions go, just read the original article I linked to. There are no statistics, just stereotypes and a single anecdote from which we are to extrapolate that all Polish, all eastern europeans and all non Irish are drink drivers. Based on your 12,000 number, if foreigners are as inclined to drink driving as gardi, we should see 58 foreign drink driving deaths.

Unlike Beekeeper, I'm not trying to blame Gardi. They have a terribly difficult job, thanks in part to Ireland's home grown culture of drink and lawlessness. (When you count in the Islamic nations, the puritanical Americans and Canadians, the nations where Christianity is still strong, strict law regimes such as the U.S., Uraguay, Turkey, Switzerland and Germany isn't it possible that the average non-Irish actually drink drives less than the local bloke?) I'm just making a point that making policy by racial and ethnic anecdotes will distract us from the core problem. I don't care if it's a garda who's Irish ancestry can be traced back to the stone-age or a blue-skinned alien from mars, if you break drink driving, speeding or other traffic safety laws, you are a danger to me and my family and you should correct your behaviour or get off the road.

Turner

dochasach wrote:

12,000 Garda? O.K. now I'll have to post another thread asking, "Where the #@$&(* are they?" good grief! It took an hour for a garda to come the 200 meters from the garda station to a bus when a (drunken Irish national -- if you must know) passenger was causing an incident. When lads were vandalizing some homes late at night, I was told that there was only one garda covering the two villages so it took 45 minutes to respond, by then the lads had gone on to another house.

As far as assumptions go, just read the original article I linked to. There are no statistics, just stereotypes and a single anecdote from which we are to extrapolate that all Polish, all eastern europeans and all non Irish are drink drivers. Based on your 12,000 number, if foreigners are as inclined to drink driving as gardi, we should see 58 foreign drink driving deaths.

12,000 Gardai in total = about 2500-3000 at any one time working, they work a 3 shift system with one shift resting.

If there was only one garda covering two villages then what is the problem with waiting 45mins for him to arrive. His calls are prioritised so obviously your call was of a lower priority than the one he was dealing with.

If you have Garda resource issues i think your gripe should be with the government.

And as for there being no statistics on foreign drivers, I presume the commissioner has details of daily and weekly arrests involving foreign drivers. Just because they are not public does not mean they dont exist.

dochasach

Chief--- wrote:

12,000 Gardai in total = about 2500-3000 at any one time working, they work a 3 shift system with one shift resting.

If there was only one garda covering two villages then what is the problem with waiting 45mins for him to arrive. His calls are prioritised so obviously your call was of a lower priority than the one he was dealing with.

No he wasn't on another call. It just took 45 minutes to get between the villages. Perhaps I should mention that the combined population of the two villages is over 20,000. Even if you divide 12,000 garda by 3 shifts, there should be 1 Garda for every 1000 resident, at least 20 covering this region 24/7.

Chief--- wrote:

If you have Garda resource issues i think your gripe should be with the government.

Of course it is, but as a non-national I can't vote and these problems won't be resolved as long as the government can blame ] foreign nationals.

Chief--- wrote:

And as for there being no statistics on foreign drivers, I presume the commissioner has details of daily and weekly arrests involving foreign drivers. Just because they are not public does not mean they dont exist.

I'm against racial/ethnic profiling full stop, but I'm even more vehemently against Secret racial profiling believe me, you don't want to go down this path... it has been tried before, it doesn't work.

MorningStar

MrPudding wrote:

Correct me if I am wrong but you are talking sh1t. He is driving a foreign reg car. That is it. Was it a diplomatic car? You people driving foreign regged cars automatically get diplomatic immunity? He commited a crime, that crime was hit and run. Are you telling me that because the offense was committed in a foreign car they could not arrest him?

Your wrong! I was hit by a car and I was told even if I had the reg it would not have mattered unless I had been seriously injured and then it would be hassle. If I got his reg how would they find out who owns the car? They can not charge to take the drivers licence away from them. They can't impound cars that are dangerous. If you noticed many offenses in driving involve getting a letter, points and a fine. How do you apply these things to foreign drivers? Why would foreign drivers fear any driving offenses in this country?

MrPudding

You actually summed it up yourself:

MorningStar wrote:

....... and then it would be hassle.

Hassle for who, do you think?

They used to arrest drivers from the north for speeding if they were unable to pay the fine on the spot. Why can they not do that anymore?

I am amazed that the peelers say "ah you see they have the funny plates, nothing we can do!" and everyone just accept it and blames the foreigners. I have an idea, what about a bit of fcuking police work? Why don't they, I don't know.....detect. Do APBs only exist in the movies? Does a foreign reg actually entitle the driver to diplomatic immunuty?

Seriously I think it is all bullsh1t. I refuse to beleave that people are above the law simply because the car they are in does not have an Irish plate.

MrP

BuffyBot

I'm against racial/ethnic profiling full stop, but I'm even more vehemently against Secret racial profiling believe me, you don't want to go down this path... it has been tried before, it doesn't work.

I'm sure it would be covered by the Freedom of Information Act, if you were really bothered..

gurramok

dochasach wrote:

12,000 Garda? O.K. now I'll have to post another thread asking, "Where the #@$&(* are they?" good grief! It took an hour for a garda to come the 200 meters from the garda station to a bus when a (drunken Irish national -- if you must know) passenger was causing an incident. When (uhh... drunken Irish) lads were vandalizing some homes late at night, I was told that there was only one garda covering the two villages so it took 45 minutes to respond, by then the lads had gone on to another house.
.

Welcome to Ireland, what you say there is normal in many areas which are usually in a city and mainly deprived or just lower income areas.
Its nothing new that it takes Gardai hours to reach a crimescene, not all incidents, just a section of gardai are very very slow reacting to crime, i've experienced too all my life living here.

John_C

I don't thin the guards are saying that all foreigners are drunk, no more than all young men are boy racers. If the guards have noticed an increase in drunk driving by foreigners they're correct to point it out.

dochasach

BuffyBot wrote:

I'm sure it would be covered by the Freedom of Information Act, if you were really bothered..

Would it not bother you? Let me swap some things in quotes from the article:
Headline: Garda chief's warning over drunk Irish drivers
...
Some of the Irish apparently drink quite a lot of alcohol at weekends.
...
He referred to a recent accident involving Irish nationals in which three people were killed.
...
Mr Ellis also said that public representatives were getting continuous complaints about Irish nationals driving cars that are neither taxed or insured or don’t conform to the NCT regulations here.

He said that a favourite trick of the (Irish) drivers was to say they don’t speak English.

( Ní thuigim Béarla! Cad a dúirt tú?* An labhraíonn éinne anseo Gaeilge? ;-)

“When they’re on the building site the next morning they have the best of English if the foreman and themselves come to grips over something,” he said.

And from the Independent article:
Safety blitz to target drink-drive Irish

NSC chief claims that their alcohol 'culture' will push up road deaths

Irish immigrants are importing their drink driving 'culture' here and worsening our soaring road carnage, the country's top road safety chief claimed last night.


Is there anything in the above that isn't true? No. Irish nationals drive uninsured, untaxed, unregistered cars, some have an alcohol culture and drive and drink heavily on the weekends a few have even claimed to not speak english. But do we gain any useful information by attaching "Irish" or "non-national" to these behaviours? No.

When it comes to road safety, Ireland has nothing to brag about.
http://www.driveandstayalive.com/info%20section/statistics/multi-country_death-rates_1988-2001.htm
Matt 7:3 And why beholdest thou the mote that is
in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?


As far as the freedom of information act goes, I really doubt every garda who sees a car that is more than 5 years old with a non-Irish driver and decides that something isn't right submits a transcript of his/her "intuition" for public consumption.

John_C

dochasach wrote:

Would it not bother you? Let me swap some things in quotes from the article:

Swap them again with the term 'young male driver', then it's quite a common article.

To answer your question, I am a little bothered by young male drivers coming in for a lot of criticism. I imagine you feel the same about a group you belong to getting flack. At the end of the day they're both problems which needs to be sorted and the guardi should be allowed to do that without having to tip-toe around sensative subjects.

BuffyBot

Would it not bother you? Let me swap some things in quotes from the article:

To quote Lauren the Teenager: "Am I bothered? Am I bothered though?". The answer is no, not really. Particularily if they have a factual basis.

As far as the freedom of information act goes, I really doubt every garda who sees a car that is more than 5 years old with a non-Irish driver and decides that something isn't right submits a transcript of his/her "intuition" for public consumption.

How do you know until you ask?

dochasach

BuffyBot wrote:

To quote Lauren the Teenager: "Am I bothered? Am I bothered though?". The answer is no, not really. Particularily if they have a factual basis.

dochasach wrote:

As far as the freedom of information act goes, I really doubt every garda who sees a car that is more than 5 years old with a non-Irish driver and decides that something isn't right submits a transcript of his/her "intuition" for public consumption.

How do you know until you ask?

You must not be from here either. I haven't even lived in Ireland a decade and I know that's just not how things work here.

BuffyBot

Well, you are giving out about someone else's "baseless" accusations by putting up little in the line of evidence? A little ironic, no? And, yes, I do tend to believe the head of the police service over someones rant on a Internet bulletin board...

silverside

i used to live in south city suburbs. at night i would get stopped once every few months (in ranelagh/rathmines/crumlin/quays etc) at checkpoints. the gardai would scrutinise my insurance/tax very carefully. maybe because i was a young male driving a semi "boy racer" car. once or twice i had my car searched/asked to produce insurance at local station. nothing too serious, just let my tax go by a month or two. Anyway:

surely a lot of the immigrants who are driving without fully valid tax/insureance would be caught by this?

if people are drink driving, who cares what colour they are, most important thing is to get them stopped: roll on the reandom alcolizer

the only reason i can see why nationality would be an issue is - if people are being stopped and being asked to produce tax/insurance, but simply disapper and fail to produce anything and can't be tracked down - surely the gardai in this case should just be able to impound the car?

anyway i think if your tax/insurance is out of date and you can't produce good i.d, car or you should be arrested. maybe a bit extreme but would work.

MG

In fairness to the Garda, the tribune yesterday gave a profile of the people who had died to date in Jan (32 +1 I heard about on the radio on the way back from buying the paper) and of these 33, 8 were, to use that horrible phrase, non-nationals.

Just under a quarter of these deaths were non nationals which does seem to be well above average.

dam099

MG wrote:

In fairness to the Garda, the tribune yesterday gave a profile of the people who had died to date in Jan (32 +1 I heard about on the radio on the way back from buying the paper) and of these 33, 8 were, to use that horrible phrase, non-nationals.

Just under a quarter of these deaths were non nationals which does seem to be well above average.

I wouldn't read too much into one months figures, could be just a statistical blip, you'd need a bigger sample size to be more sure it means anything.

dochasach

MG wrote:

In fairness to the Garda, the tribune yesterday gave a profile of the people who had died to date in Jan (32 +1 I heard about on the radio on the way back from buying the paper) and of these 33, 8 were, to use that horrible phrase, non-nationals.

Just under a quarter of these deaths were non nationals which does seem to be well above average.

I couldn't find this tribune article, but the article I referenced earlier did mention the nearly 1/4th figure in January. If your article gives more detail, I'd like to know:

1) Were non-nationals 1/4th of the death victims or 1/4th of the at-fault drivers? (e.g. if an Irish national lad in a 2006 Mercedes mows down a Lado, killing himself, and a Latvian family of 3 (or 3 non-national bicyclists), do we suddenly have a 75% "non-national" problem? Forgive me if this seems naive, but in violent crime statistics, non-national victimhood exceeds their percentage in the population, yet even these statistics have been used against non-nationals.

2) What is the percentage of deaths where the driver was going too fast? I'll bet it's more than 1/4.

3) What is the percentage of deaths where the driver was drunk? I'll bet it's more than 1/4.

4) What is the percentage of deaths where the driver was a young male driving a late model sporty car? I'll bet it's more than 1/4.

5) Does anyone with a statistical background know what margin of error from a sample size of 31, when the annual death rate is likely to be at least 400?

6) Why are the gardi/national news media breaking down these statistics by nationality rather than by IQ, age, Y chromosome, political affiliation or astrological sign? People have found correlations between mini-skirt length and the stock market, but finding a correlation does not guarantee causation or predictability.

Eddie Shaw actually did say something about non-nationals which I agree with:

He also says the state of our non-national roads must be addressed and warned road signage must be improved.

John_C

dochasach wrote:

1) Were non-nationals 1/4th of the death victims or 1/4th of the at-fault drivers? (e.g. if an Irish national in a 2006 Merc mows down a Lado, killing a Latvian family of 4 (or 4 non-national on bicycles), do we suddenly have a 75% "non-national" problem?

No, because an innocent victim is no more likely to be foreign then Irish. The statistics here should even out over any reasonable length of time.

dochasach wrote:

6) Why are the gardi/national news media breaking down these statistics by nationality rather than by IQ, age, Y chromosome, political affiliation or astrological sign?

The statistics are broken down by most sensible criteria (except, surprisingly, wheather a driver is a learner or not). Correlations have been found between accident rates and age, gender and race. We can try to explain the problems but we shouldn't try to deny they exist.

John_C

dochasach wrote:

5) Does anyone with a statistical background know what margin of error from a sample size of 31, when the annual death rate is likely to be at least 400?

That's a big sum. If I can find time this evening I'll do it.

MG

The Margin of error on a sample of 33 with a 95% confidence level is about + -17%.

P.S. Please understand what this means, however, before using it.

parsi

dochasach wrote:

No he wasn't on another call. It just took 45 minutes to get between the villages. Perhaps I should mention that the combined population of the two villages is over 20,000.

Them's big villages - maybe ye should try and get them re-classified as towns ?

Over the Christmas we were driving down to Cork and not far from Charleville we ended up behind a guy who was driving erratically and we felt he may be under the influence. So herself rang the Guards and we ended up talking to Fermoy (!) who took the details and said they'd contact Charleville. When we got to Charleville about 6-7 minutes later the squad car was coming out against us and stopped yer man. We then got a call back to say that he wasn't drunk.

dts

dochasach wrote:

Would it not bother you? Let me swap some things in quotes from the article:
Headline: Garda chief's warning over drunk Irish drivers
...
Some of the Irish apparently drink quite a lot of alcohol at weekends.
...
He referred to a recent accident involving Irish nationals in which three people were killed.
...
Mr Ellis also said that public representatives were getting continuous complaints about Irish nationals driving cars that are neither taxed or insured or don’t conform to the NCT regulations here.

He said that a favourite trick of the (Irish) drivers was to say they don’t speak English.

( Ní thuigim Béarla! Cad a dúirt tú?* An labhraíonn éinne anseo Gaeilge? ;-)

“When they’re on the building site the next morning they have the best of English if the foreman and themselves come to grips over something,” he said.

And from the Independent article:
Safety blitz to target drink-drive Irish

NSC chief claims that their alcohol 'culture' will push up road deaths

Irish immigrants are importing their drink driving 'culture' here and worsening our soaring road carnage, the country's top road safety chief claimed last night.


Is there anything in the above that isn't true? No. Irish nationals drive uninsured, untaxed, unregistered cars, some have an alcohol culture and drive and drink heavily on the weekends a few have even claimed to not speak english. But do we gain any useful information by attaching "Irish" or "non-national" to these behaviours? No.

When it comes to road safety, Ireland has nothing to brag about.
http://www.driveandstayalive.com/info%20section/statistics/multi-country_death-rates_1988-2001.htm
Matt 7:3 And why beholdest thou the mote that is
in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?


As far as the freedom of information act goes, I really doubt every garda who sees a car that is more than 5 years old with a non-Irish driver and decides that something isn't right submits a transcript of his/her "intuition" for public consumption.

Sounds like something you would have read in a paper in the UK. those Irish are always driving drunk!

As for driving around on UK plates, you will still get pulled and you will still have to pay the fine. The only thing at the moment is you wont get the points but as the UK have the same issue with Irish driving they are trying to resolve this so points will be added in either country.

And as for tax and insurance, is there anyone living out in the country that know this is something you are suposed to have?

dochasach

MG wrote:

The Margin of error on a sample of 33 with a 95% confidence level is about + -17%.

P.S. Please understand what this means, however, before using it.

It simply means that an unreliable statistical figures were used along with anecdotes to promote an anti-immigrant agenda. No news, nothing to see here, move along.

...Sometimes I feel like I'm trying to explain basic equality at a "The Bell Curve" book signing.