the continuing edumacation....

clint_silver

Im on a 9 player 3/6 NL on PPP.

Im in SB and get 33. I and one other player UTG+1 calls the BB. The flop comes 6 K 3. The first caller raises 6, I raise to 18, BB folds. 4th brings a 10, I bet 18 he calls. river is a 7, I go 18 again, he goes 64. Im thinking what can he have? Ive been tight for about 90 mins on the table, and pushed my orig stake from 200 up to about 450. Ive taken some money off this guy in 2 hands previously by only playing when Ive had the nuts and he called me all the way with nothing with similar bets and then tried to raise on the river. Other people have called him as well and he likes to try and be aggresive with his betting to get people to fold which is how I made money off him. Hes got about 850 in chips.
How would you play? So Im thinking
a) hes either going on past form and bullying me to fold which i and others have caught him out on
b) he hit trips with 777 on the river
c) hes been loaded since the flop and stringing me to get as much from me as possible..

so do I call, raise or fold and did i play the above the right way in the first place?

ditpoker

call...
you have a strong hand that beats alot of hands he could have...
if you reraise him, you're only going to get called if you're behind.
for me its a call.

ianmc38

clint_silver wrote:

Im on a 9 player 3/6 NL on PPP.

Im in SB and get 33. I and one other player UTG+1 calls the BB. The flop comes 6 K 3. The first caller raises 6, I raise to 18, BB folds. 4th brings a 10, I bet 18 he calls. river is a 7, I go 18 again, he goes 64. Im thinking what can he have? Ive been tight for about 90 mins on the table, and pushed my orig stake from 200 up to about 450. Ive taken some money off this guy in 2 hands previously by only playing when Ive had the nuts and he called me all the way with nothing with similar bets and then tried to raise on the river. Other people have called him as well and he likes to try and be aggresive with his betting to get people to fold which is how I made money off him. Hes got about 850 in chips.
How would you play? So Im thinking
a) hes either going on past form and bullying me to fold which i and others have caught him out on
b) he hit trips with 777 on the river
c) hes been loaded since the flop and stringing me to get as much from me as possible..

so do I call, raise or fold and did i play the above the right way in the first place?

For one, i think the turn bet could have been bigger. Betting 1/3 of the pot is too little to push a loose player off a drawing hand. If he flopped the hi-lo straight draw with 45, then he's going to autocall that bet on the turn. The 7 on the river means that I'd only smooth call this one. If it was a tighter player, i may lay it down, but with this guys aggressive reputation and regualr bluffs, i think its worth calling.

Note on the turn i prefer 3/4 to pot size bet in this scenario.

Samba

Oh dear, this looks like a cross between monkey and donkey play.....he had 89o didn't he?


I say this as he has called you down with nothing before when you were holding the nuts...im sensing a complete donkey play

Jaden

Your bet of 18 into a 42 pot on the turn is where I would act differently. I'm thinking pot-sized bet here, with a pot bet on the river. Fold to re-raise possibly.

As you played it, it's a call on the river.

clint_silver

Your bet of 18 into a 42 pot on the turn is where I would act differently. I'm thinking pot-sized bet here, with a pot bet on the river. Fold to re-raise possibly.

As you played it, it's a call on the river.

This is the bit thats bugging me, Im thinking I should have bet the pot on the turn too but the reraise on the river is where I currently am strategically lacking, as he had done similar earlier and been found out so I was in a quandry and could only make the call based on what i knew of the player from the previous hands.

I actually did call and lost a fair size of my earnings for the night.

He'd had KK which meant he was leading all the way.

So (thinking out loud), lessons learned? Yes, he would have gone all the way anyway as he was leading but if he was going to fish as normal with say 2 pair or 89 to chase the straight, are the wise decisions to
a) bet the pot (or go 4xbb?) after flop and turn, i would have thought 3xBB was enough to sort the men out from the boys in a hand on flop and turn, but hey....
b) fold on large reraise on river even though I may be committed to the pot with a strong hand and hes bullied with bets before and had nothing?

Norwich Fan Rob

all his betting patterns suggest 45 to me, be surprised if he had 89, as he would have no business calling your flop re raise with that.
I could have KK but may have raised pre flop with that.
Even with 66 or TT he should re raise the turn, in case u have a draw, and to maximise his hand.
The more i look at it, i think he had 45 probably suited and u did make it too cheap on the turn.
That said, with his past reputation, and the odds he is giving u, u have to flat call this river.
A re raise is pointless as if he is any good u are beat and if its a total bluff he wont call your re raise.
Slight chance he is a complete muppet with AK or KQ maybe, or the worst played AA ever, hes horrendous if thats the case, but u cant rule it out.
If i had any respect for his game, i would be sure he had 45.
As i dont on what u would said, i would call and hope for the best.
(but are probably beat)

fixer

45o. open ended on the flop, so he bet 1/3 pot. you re-raised less than the pot, so he called. turn was a blank, but you bet 1/3 pot, so he called. River he hits his str8, you bet 1/4 pot (?!), and he reraised 4x your bet (probably just used the automatic 4x raise entry). He wants a call here, that's not big enough to be a bluff.

clint_silver

He wants a call here, that's not big enough to be a bluff.

Correct!!! I was too confused from his earlier play to see this tho. Bad call by me on the river Im thinking and I could improve on my overall raising. see earlier post for what happened. you and rob were probably typing when i replied.

RoundTower

Easy call. Bet more on the turn.

clint_silver

Easy call. Bet more on the turn.

To play this out, if i did say go 48 or 64 on the turn, and he called, what would that tell you before the river came down and what is my action on the river then? check and see what he does?

Norwich Fan Rob

if he calls 48 or 64 on the turn, he has a made hand, and not a draw and not a total bluff.............and as the boards K63T, hes either got KTs or a bigger set, more likely KKK or TTT.

hotspur

Don't beat yourself up, he limped with KK and flopped an overset to your flopped set, that you weren't stacked is a miracle, I would have been all in. Btw $200 is a very small amount of money to be playing tight at at a $600 buy in table, why sit there paying bigger blinds if you're not playing aggressively?

RoundTower

clint_silver wrote:

To play this out, if i did say go 48 or 64 on the turn, and he called, what would that tell you before the river came down and what is my action on the river then? check and see what he does?

Just to remind you of what you said about this guy earlier

clint_silver wrote:

and he called me all the way with nothing with similar bets and then tried to raise on the river.

I can never tell if "raise" means bet or raise.

OK let's say you went 50 on the turn. The pot is now 154 and you have about 375 behind. Against this guy, I check and call any bet, including all in. Maybe bet 50 and call any raise is better, if you really have seen him bluff raise several times on the river.

Hectorjelly

You should of gone broke this hand, I certainly would of. There was no reason to fear an overset (until the river and If I had of played the hand like you I would of called). This kind of illustrates why you need a big BR, so that you can play hands like this in the most +EV way possible.

fuzzbox

Hectorjelly wrote:

You should of gone broke this hand, I certainly would of. There was no reason to fear an overset (until the river and If I had of played the hand like you I would of called). This kind of illustrates why you need a big BR, so that you can play hands like this in the most +EV way possible.

You shouldnt go broke against every EP limper, who is willing to put a lot of chips in the pot postflop on a K63 rainbow board.

This is a prime example of a hand I would be careful of. Since he min-bet the flop and called a *small* check raise, alarm bells would start ringing, especially when the 7 hit the deck.

I wouldnt often expect to see 45 from an EP limper, but KK or 66 is certainly in his range. I would also call the river here.

All this said, I would play the hand totally differently, and I might well get stacked by *this* player.

fuzzbox

Norwich Fan Rob wrote:

if he calls 48 or 64 on the turn, he has a made hand, and not a draw and not a total bluff.............and as the boards K63T, hes either got KTs or a bigger set, more likely KKK or TTT.

I dont know about that. He could still have AK/KQ/KJ or whatever, or 45 too.

fuzzbox

RoundTower wrote:

OK let's say you went 50 on the turn. The pot is now 154 and you have about 375 behind. Against this guy, I check and call any bet, including all in. Maybe bet 50 and call any raise is better, if you really have seen him bluff raise several times on the river.

I dont see any reason to check the river against this guy (or any guy for that matter).

If pot was 150, and I thought he would call a big bet with a pair (or two pair) then I would bet 150.
Most often a bet between 100 and pot is good here.

RoundTower

fuzzbox wrote:

I dont see any reason to check the river against this guy (or any guy for that matter).

If pot was 150, and I thought he would call a big bet with a pair (or two pair) then I would bet 150.
Most often a bet between 100 and pot is good here.

All I know about this guy is that he could have got this far with nothing and will probably make a big bluff on the river. If I didn't have this somewhat unusual read I would bet, probably about 100.