Heads Up Help

niamhsdad

First post here (after lots of reading/lurking) having had the site recommended to me by Doc Farrell whilst playing in the PPP Vegas trip MTT when I first started playing late last year

Having caught the poker bug fom watching to much late night tv, I started small. However, I read a bit (some good stuff from this site by the way), got lucky a bit & have won a (very small by some of your standards) bit of cash over this time, more than 20 x my original buy in. Am now playing $5 STT's & am considering moving up again, but one thing is bugging me (and stopping me from moving up), I seem to have lost inability to actually take tournaments down from a winning position

Have had plenty of time on my hands over the last couple of days & have played 20 STTs, 1st once, 2nd 9 times, 3rd 4 times, out of the money on 6 occasions. In at least half the STTs I've finished 2nd in Ive been ahead at some point when heads up, but just cant seem to finish the job off.

Have obviously shown a nice little ROI over the period above (and know this is a small snapshot) but know it could have been better - any advice you gents can give or reading material you know of on the subject would be greatly appreciated

Thanks for reading

Nd

careca

Good article in Poker Player Ireland's last edition (cough) by Hectorjelly on Headsup play. Can pick it up in most of the casinos. Pm me if you are stuck and I might be able to get one sent on to you.

mewso

A few scattered thoughts on headsup - some may disagree.

Playing style-

Short stacked - Ultra Agressive
Same sizes - Very Agressive
Large Chip lead - Tight-Agressive.

Pretty basic method but in general it bugs me when I see the "in heads up any Ace is a huge hand" type stuff for headsup advice. This kind of advice tells you to raise with marginal hands and generally be agressive constantly without considering the relative stack sizes.
The value of hands do go up but more the lower your stack is and less the larger it is. I will also slow play monsters (limp on the sb) more often especially when I have the chip lead because I know my opponent may push with anything. Also playing almost every hand from the sb allows for the slow play when the opportunity arises. I used to fold the 92o from the sb in the past but now I would rarely fold except to a raise of course.

I had a funny little headsup last night. I have about 10k and opponent about 9k. I raise with A8 he pushes. I call he has 55. I hit an 8 on the turn and he hits a 5 on the river (after one of PPP's trademark pauses). So I have 1k and he has 17k. At this point I was all-in about 5 hands in a row and gradually got back to 4k or so and from there took a 12k to 6k lead. Be great to say I won from there but I lost a few hands later that I have erased from my hand. Just show headsup has so many swings. From being one card awat from winning it to being 1 step away from being beaten to being in the lead again to eventually losing. Great fun.

Culchie

That's good Muso.

I try to have the idea of winning bigger pots that I'm conceding...sounds stupid I know but chipping away until opponent gets frustrated is good news.

I was heads up in Drogheda last week, and I learnt a very good lesson which I will remember.

I won't go into the hand details, because they are not really relevant.

However I made a move on a good player who was holding a weak but leading hand on the flop....
I had so many outs I felt good about making the play after he had bet out (blinds huge at this stage).... however I really wanted him to fold the hand.
This would have swung a 70/30 negative to a 70/30 positive chip situation.

If I had made the move 3 hours earlier he would not have called (he told me this himself as well) but because it was late and because he was so tired, he called with his second pair, crap kicker.
No improvment for me, so I was second, can't complain especially as I had KK crack AA on final table.

However moral of story, and a lesson I won't forget, is not to make 'plays' on people who are tired, especially when they are good players and in the money (and probably used to being in the money, and don't need a 'big score').

Rodge

I'm assuming your username on PPP is Niamhsdad. I have played you a few times and my notes on you lead me to the conclusion that you need to be more aggressive, especially preflop. My notes also say that you overplay Ax if thats any help.

ntlbell

Culchie wrote:

However moral of story, and a lesson I won't forget, is not to make 'plays' on people who are tired,

I'll remember to type in the chat box about hot choclate and hot water bottles....see if i can tire them out a bit

Ste05

Heads up is a tricky one to give good advice on. I think everyone has their own style. Harrington on Hold 'Em Volume 2 has a decent heads up section. He tracks through a couple of heads-up sessions, I think one is Phil Ivey. It's good as is everything else in that book.

Anyway, in general I like Muso's advice too, I like to be aggressive, mixing it up with trap calling, I think the most important thing is to try and gain the initiative in the battle, test the waters from time to time, i.e. see how cheap you can rob his BB for, will he always call if you minimum raise. etc. etc.

Another important thing to do IMHO is to try and confuse him with your pre-flop play. i.e. don’t only raise with big hands, some times flat call and equally don’t always flat call with crap, sometimes raise (I will always at least flat call the SB. I’ll never give him his BB for free, unless I do it once on purpose, and making sure he’s the kind of player that might believe after this that I’m not playing any 2)

Having said all that, IMHO the key word is Momentum…. You need it and if he has it you need to wrestle it back. This is where HU battles are won and lost. All the above just IMHO...

niamhsdad

Rodge wrote:

I'm assuming your username on PPP is Niamhsdad. I have played you a few times and my notes on you lead me to the conclusion that you need to be more aggressive, especially preflop. My notes also say that you overplay Ax if thats any help.

Thanks for your comments Rodge, can't disagree with what you say on the Ax front and its something I'm trying to rectify.

Next time we're on the same table say hi, I'll be the one all in every hand from now on

niamhsdad

Many thanks to all of you for taking the time to reply, some really interesting stuff there for a relative beginner like me.

Hopefully I'll be able to relieve some of you of your chips putting your advice into practice soon

Rodge

niamhsdad wrote:

Thanks for your comments Rodge, can't disagree with what you say on the Ax front and its something I'm trying to rectify.

Next time we're on the same table say hi, I'll be the one all in every hand from now on

I will indeed, JohnnyFoxy is my username on PPP

hotspur

I used to play an awful lot of HU sit n go's and there's something that I've never seen written about that I've always found important and that is the rhythm of the game. I doubt I'll be able to articulate it properly because it's almost more of a feel, but what I find very important is to get a sense of the nature of the ebb and flow in the game. Cards interupt the rhythm but not always, if you are being aggressive and raising on the button several times succession then you have to get a sense of when "enough is enough" and give the other player a free walk because they are just going to play back at you otherwise in order to break the particular rhythm that has been established. If you voluntarily break the pattern for them then their defences will go back down and you can go back into that rhythm fairly soon. You have to throw even the weakest player a bone in order not to be playing a big pot with no cards, and it is certainly better to volunteer them a free walk than to let them find out that by playing more aggressively they can help themselves to one. Try to know when they are going to make moves according to their previous patterns and what just happened to them, the same way in a tourny you decide not to limp or raise because a player later to act just lost most of his chips and is an all in risk for an amount you don't want to call. You can't dictate the cards you get but if you can be aggressive and manipulate the rhythm then you have a very good chance. HU is part poker, part psychology, and part dance. Oh and if they are tight try to play small pots and be patient in chipping away.

Norwich Fan Rob

good advise hotspur imo

jtsuited

try to get the upper hand aggression-wise if the blinds are in any way significant. Be careful about slowplaying monsters, as you could be easily pushed off the river if any scare cards appear.
Oh and don't be afraid to go broke heads up. If you get 2nd, don't worry. You've done fantastically and just load up another table.
I spent about a month and a half making a decent profit grinding the 20's on stars. It's something i plan on doing again if i ever get the time. Which won't be for a long while. But make sure you are adequately bankrolled. That is the main downfall of stt players.
How many buyins do you have as a bankroll?

niamhsdad

jtsuited wrote:

try to get the upper hand aggression-wise if the blinds are in any way significant. Be careful about slowplaying monsters, as you could be easily pushed off the river if any scare cards appear.
Oh and don't be afraid to go broke heads up. If you get 2nd, don't worry. You've done fantastically and just load up another table.
I spent about a month and a half making a decent profit grinding the 20's on stars. It's something i plan on doing again if i ever get the time. Which won't be for a long while. But make sure you are adequately bankrolled. That is the main downfall of stt players.
How many buyins do you have as a bankroll?

Thanks Jsuited
For $5 STT's i've now got the best part of 100 buy ins
Which I guess in itself leads to another question - how many buy ins is enough to move up?

Culchie

niamhsdad wrote:

Thanks Jsuited
For $5 STT's i've now got the best part of 100 buy ins
Which I guess in itself leads to another question - how many buy ins is enough to move up?

10-12 buy-in should be enough ... you can always change down if you fall below this.

If you are beating the $5 easily, you are 'losing' money...move on up a level, make your time more profitable.

Ste05

hotspur wrote:

I used to play an awful lot of HU sit n go's and there's something that I've never seen written about that I've always found important and that is the rhythm of the game. I doubt I'll be able to articulate it properly because it's almost more of a feel, but what I find very important is to get a sense of the nature of the ebb and flow in the game. Cards interupt the rhythm but not always, if you are being aggressive and raising on the button several times succession then you have to get a sense of when "enough is enough" and give the other player a free walk because they are just going to play back at you otherwise in order to break the particular rhythm that has been established. If you voluntarily break the pattern for them then their defences will go back down and you can go back into that rhythm fairly soon. You have to throw even the weakest player a bone in order not to be playing a big pot with no cards, and it is certainly better to volunteer them a free walk than to let them find out that by playing more aggressively they can help themselves to one. Try to know when they are going to make moves according to their previous patterns and what just happened to them, the same way in a tourny you decide not to limp or raise because a player later to act just lost most of his chips and is an all in risk for an amount you don't want to call. You can't dictate the cards you get but if you can be aggressive and manipulate the rhythm then you have a very good chance. HU is part poker, part psychology, and part dance. Oh and if they are tight try to play small pots and be patient in chipping away.

Great advice and well written, I also employ this, it's pretty much what I was trying to get at with my Momentum point, I think this is a great way of keeping the momentum. It's all about not allowing him to wrestle the momentum away from you, if he finds out he can push you around he may try it more often. You want him to try it when you have the goods, so you can come back over the top.

Another point that I just thought of is I try, if possible to make my bets so that he is risking alot more of his stack than you are to win a hand. i.e. you raise at times and in amounts that he knows that if he wants to try and win this pot he'll have to risk a larger % of his stack than you, possibly his whole tournament. I don't think I could articulate this point properly. I also try and develop the game in such away that with a few key hands, I set the tone for the rest of the small pots. Normally the large pots are a seperate kettle of fish but if you're winning a larger % of the small pots than that will help you (1) finish him off in the next big confrontation, or (2) survive if he wins the next big confrontation.

mewso

Just on hotspurs's advice. I know what is being said but it's a fine line since often agression is intended to make the opponent push on weaker hands and to make them think you are likely to have nothing. So I suppose I would be saying that if you use this tactic then once you have given your opponent a break thats it and it's back to being agressive because you want to create those opportunities where he pushes and you have a good hand.

Hectorjelly

Just find whatever is your opponents greatest weakness and prey on it.

accensi0n

Hectorjelly wrote:

Just find whatever is your opponents greatest weakness and prey on it.

bacon double cheese-burger meal.

niamhsdad

Culchie wrote:

10-12 buy-in should be enough ... you can always change down if you fall below this.

If you are beating the $5 easily, you are 'losing' money...move on up a level, make your time more profitable.

Thanks Culchie

$5 is going very well at present, and based on what Culchie says i have the bankroll to go up a lot higher than $10. I don't want to walk before I can run though. In your opinions (and i appreciate most of you probably dont play at these levels anymore) is there likely to be a huge difference in standard at $10? If not at $10, just so I know for (hopefully) future reference, where does the standard really get hot?

Once again, thanks for all your replies and if i do meet any of you at the tables, please dont type bacon Double Cheesburger meal in the chat box!

Ste05

There's a tiny bit of an improvement between $5 and $10, but nothing much, I find there's slightly complete beginners at $5 than $10, although haven't played $5 in a long time, but I'd say it's still the same.