2 trip As in a row and lose both

clint_silver

Hi,

Playin 6 player table 3/6 NL on paddys online. Fairly early in my play so dont know how tight anyone is yet. chip counts range from 200 to 800.
Played a few hands, called 1 or 2 but nothin yet. Then got A7. Im in middle, first 2 fold so I raise to 12. Only BB comes with me. Flop comes down AA3 to give me trip As. I raise 18, BB calls after a bit of deliberation. 2 comes down. i raise another 18, he still calls. 9 comes down. I raise 24, he calls, hes got 45 suited for the straight. Drats.

Immediately get AK in the next hand. Raise to 18 this time. Only SB comes with me. (BB last time). Flop is A 10 7. I raise another 18, he comes with me so Im thinking hes either got an A, a low pair or fishing a straight again. turn puts another A on the board to give me trips again so I go 24. He calls, last card is a 3 but now Im worried since the beat in last hand so check. he checks as well. Hes got 77 to give him house over me 777AA. Double drats.

Okay, both bad beats, that doesnt bother me, Im more worried about my play. Could/should I have played either hand any differently? Im relatively new at it but have been studying and trying to stay tight, I cant see if I did too much wrong or did I? Maybe bet more aggresively in the first hand? was I just unlucky and if I stay with my play I'll earn in the long run?

Ste05

It's a bit risky to start out at 3/6NL Short handed, to put it mildly. Is this real money??

RoundTower

What is your user name on paddy power?

NickyOD

RoundTower wrote:

What is your user name on paddy power?

Now there's a loaded question if I ever saw one :v:

DubTony

RoundTower wrote:

What is your user name on paddy power?

Clint, before the sharks on here start to hunt you down, here's a little advice from a fellah who knows very little. Play the .10/.20 tables with the other bad players and learn the game. The guys on the 1/2 tables will eat you (and your cash) up, so the 3/6 tables should be strictly off limits.

I'm not an experienced player (I'm still playing penny tournaments and free stuff) but I would suggest you learn how to read the board and then take some time to try to figure out what the other guy might be holding based on his play so far.

By the way, neither of your hands could be regarded as bad beats. You were behind on the flop in the AK hand and on the A7 hand your min bet pre-flop wasn't enough to see off the big blind and he flopped a monster straight draw.

I don't know a lot about cash games as I only play tournaments, but I can't imagine that A7 is a good hand to open with.

clint_silver

Its ok Dub, I knew people would comment like that, I dont mind. I played for first 3-4 months at free or the lower tables (.10/.20) and didnt do too well, then started to pick up after reading some hellmuth. Then moved on a good bit with Gordons little green book and started to make some money so moved up to 1/2 and 2/4 tables. I play a LOT as I dont have many other interests, I know Im amateurish compared to lots on here but I get by and learning all the time and not losing too much money doin it as my play is generally tight.
Ive done my losing money thing at the lower end. I still have my loose nights but theyre getting less and less so the bank balance is up overall. If anyone wants to find me at paddys, they'll find me. I find theres worse players then me playing 3/6, and as long as there is I'll make money too.

A7 really is about the lowest hand I would play with although the other AAs coming out probably didnt help me in the losses.

To the other guys, thanks for the helpful tips, this was my first post here and I was led to believe by others this was a helpful place, thanks for setting me straight on what type it actually is.

RoundTower

I wasn't trying to be unhelpful, but I genuinely would like to know your name on line. I see quite a lot of the same players all the time. My handle there is RoundTower, if that helps.

I think you played both hands badly, and so did your opponents, so I don't doubt for a minute that you are making money. After all, there clearly are players there who are playing worse than you.

If you'ld like some actual helpful information, raise more preflop in the first hand, and check behind on the river. Bet more on the flop in the second hand. Maybe you should bet the river in the second hand, that is actually one of the interesting things in your post, because it is possible you will get paid off by AQ or the like. And make your hand histories clearer, you can request a transcript of the hand by clicking something like "options" and then "hand history". It would be especially helpful to know the stack sizes of you and the relevant opponent, "200 to 800" is not much of a start.

Play whatever level you're comfortable at, if you have a few buyins to play around with 3-6 is fine. Some people would recommend you start at $.50-$1 and tell you you'd learn nothing at $.05-$.10. It's all relative.

DubTony

clint_silver wrote:

Its ok Dub, I knew people would comment like that, I dont mind.

Good for you. You're right about people commenting "like that". But you'll find that on all poker forums. 'Cos it's not really about the cards ... oh no ... it's all about the egos.

But really it's all good natured. They're not a bad bunch here, and it's not really "that type of place". Lots of snide comments and smart remarks, but you will find a lot of help when you need it.

In your post you said you were new to the game so I thought you were playing way out of your league. But if you've got the bankroll and can handle it, as Roundtower says, play where you're comfortable. (oh, for a bankroll )

Don't be put off the forum. Most of us spend most of our time trying to figure out the best way to take the piss out of one another.

Ste05

clint_silver wrote:

To the other guys, thanks for the helpful tips, this was my first post here and I was led to believe by others this was a helpful place, thanks for setting me straight on what type it actually is.

TBH, the best piece of advice we could give you is to not play at 3/6NL Short handed until you are ready for that level.

But as you say you've done some research, read a few books and are making a profit, so honestly fair play. You obviously have the right attitude to the game, continue with your study, continue to post hands here and other poker forums.

I don't think there was anything wrong with what we posted, TBH, before we could say anything about these hands at this level, there is a tonne of things we needed to know, first and foremost, did you have any clue what you were doing... it now appears that in fact you did.

Before looking at these individual hands, I think the first thing you need to add to your arsenal is correct bankroll management. Are you aware that to play Short handed 3/6NL, you should have a BR of at least $10k, and that's optimistic even if you're a proven winning player (this isn't any kind of back handed compliment, it's just that after only a few months of playing you can't be certain that you are). If for whatever reason money isn't a problem for you, and you can afford to lose a couple of k, you won't get a better training ground than this level and your game will improve at a vastly increased pace than by starting at the lower levels and working your way up.

In relation to the hands posted.

Hand 1: A7o is not a raising hand. It's just far too risky to open with. If you're called you won't know where you stand. Any A hits and you could lose your whole stack. I'd recommend limiting this play from your arsenal. Raise with hands like 78s, or small pairs instead to mix up your game. If you are going to raise don't min. raise. The BB can, should and did call with any 2. If this flop comes down, either bet more or check, your opponent now knows exactly what hand you have. He was a bit mad to call with his inside straight draw, but he possibly thought he could stack you if he hit his straight and so called thinking he had the correct implied odds.

Hand 2: Better raise pre-flop, but you should try and open raise roughly the same amount with AK or with A7, change it randomly (or at least make it look random) between 3 or 4 BB's unless you have a reason for changing your bet size. (This reason generally shouldn't be based on the cards you hold, with obvious exceptions from time to time, this would deserve a page on it's own)

Don't be overly concerned with people "fishing" for crappy straight draws, think about trips, up and down straight draws, flush draws, two pair, etc. etc., based on the texture of the flop. Try and think what he called you with pre-flop and would then call again on the flop that fits into the board now, is he drawing or does he have you beat already. Also looking to what you are representing. Here you're representing the A on the flop and he's calling. Alarm bells should have been ringing. The rest of the hand is too difficult to analyse without any reads on your opponent, stack sizes or previous actions that both you and him have made

Hectorjelly

Ste05 wrote:

Hand 1: A7o is not a raising hand. It's just far too risky to open with. If you're called you won't know where you stand. Any A hits and you could lose your whole stack

a7 is plenty good enough to raise in late position. Shorthanded especially is a battle for blinds, you should really be raising any ace in late position. If you flop top pair you dont automatically have to back it with your stack. I agree with the rest of your post.

Ste05

That was more aimed at a beginner.

clint_silver

tnks guys, good info. I really appreciate the time you took to detail the answers. I clearly misread the earlier mails as I am new here Hope you'll forgive me.

after initially losing more hands then winning, some study and tightening of play, I moved quickly up from the lower tables as I started to win more hands then lose. Not a lot, but consistently enough to make me believe I could step up a level.
In the early brief forays to the bigger tables I discovered there are people who like to lose and lose big. Have I lost money there? yes. But I have won more then lost, not too much mind you, my heads just a little over the water. I try not to get sucked into stupid betting or chasing. Id like to think lessons learned like losing 2 hands in a row with trip As are invaluable. And are so marked as to remind me to halt and think every time I think of going in with A7 again.
Im at the 3/6 tables for about 6-7 weeks. Im reading more and more players now, after about 5-6 hands I can tell what some players have from their betting patterns so that side is improving. Im still very cautious about what to bet and when to bet so the safe nature of my game is probably keeping me afloat. Yes, my game has improved from playing 3/6 far more so then I coul dahve playing the smaller tables.
Ive gone back to .25/.50c games every now and then if Ive taken a loss, apply the same game and win a few hands so I know my strategy is probably right for lower levels. Yes, theres a more varied type of player at 3/6, the swings are a lot bigger, but Im getting there.

hope you'll be patient with me if I ask the odd question here. Again, thanks for posting the replies, they really are appreciated.

My online name is clintsilver.

Hectorjelly

Ste05 wrote:

That was more aimed at a beginner.

If your playing 36 you cant play like a beginner!

Ste05

Hectorjelly wrote:

If your playing 36 you cant play like a beginner!

agreed

Hectorjelly

clint_silver wrote:

My online name is clintsilver.

Weve played together at 24nl, im pretty sure you bought in short. Good luck and feel free to ask any questions here.

mewso

I do like the "he hasnt posted here before so he couldn't be ready for that level" approach.

Ste05

musician wrote:

I do like the "he hasnt posted here before so he couldn't be ready for that level" approach.

Well I certainly wasn't basing it on the fact that he hadn't posted here before, but more this part of his post.

clint_silver wrote:

Im relatively new at it but have been studying and trying to stay tight, I cant see if I did too much wrong or did I? Maybe bet more aggresively in the first hand? was I just unlucky and if I stay with my play I'll earn in the long run?

clint_silver

Yes, think we have played hector. Ive probably done a lot of things wrong. On balance I think Im just about doing more right then wrong though.

Sorry, just posting back on an earlier comment. Would you really say 10k to bankroll 3/6? I read somewhere (really cant remember where) to bankroll a table then triple a max swing and if a max swing is about 1000 on a 3/6 then surely 3k would do it. If you lose all that then IMO you (or I) shouldnt be playing 3/6.

im basing the 1k swing on the fact that on one session thats the most I was up and about 600 is the most I was down (had a few drinks, a mistake not to be repeated). Probably the most expensive bottle wine I ever drank in my life.

Hectorjelly

clint_silver wrote:

Sorry, just posting back on an earlier comment. Would you really say 10k to bankroll 3/6? I read somewhere (really cant remember where) to bankroll a table then triple a max swing and if a max swing is about 1000 on a 3/6 then surely 3k would do it. If you lose all that then IMO you (or I) shouldnt be playing 3/6.

That was terrible advise, ive lost 2k playing 24 in a matter of minutes (slight exageration). 3k is enough to play 50 1. To play 36 with no fear of going broke a good winning player should have at least 10k.

clint_silver

If your playing 36 you cant play like a beginner!

Can i add to that "for very long"?

or else Id need a 10k bankroll..:D

clint_silver

That was terrible advise, ive lost 2k playing 24 in a matter of minutes (slight exageration). 3k is enough to play 50 1. To play 36 with no fear of going broke a good winning player should have at least 10k.

Surely thats only for aggresive players who expect to win big but will take the bigger swings to acheive it? I will bow to your greater knowledge on this one but I only have my own experience to go on. (is that a paradox or a contradiction? )
Like i said,the most I was down was 600 in one session. Admittedly, was down about a grand over the course of that week but clawed it back. The quantity of mistakes I made to be down that much havent been made since.
And as for losing money, I am fully aware of the game we play and the risks involved. I have a line in my profile that says "if you dont want to lose money playing poker, dont play poker".

Hectorjelly

If you play a lot you will experience horrible runs in which you cant win a single hand. Having a decent BR really makes these runs easier, as well as stop you going broke. 200 blinds is nothing, even the most passive players will experience 750 blind downswings, which is 4.5k at 36.

AmarilloFats

Welcome Clint.
Sounds like you are enjoying the poker, good stuff.
Very good advise given in the previous posts...And you should take it all into consideration... But, perhaps do not let it temper your ambition to quickly rise up the levels..!
Some players play for years and never jump up to next level...Which is ok.
A guy called thebruiser500 posted a year or 2 ago on www.twoplustwo.com
He was grossly under banrolled and (with some luck) is now playing the biggest games on the Net...and is well regarded..

So enjoy and keep reading..

Rob

fuzzbox

Yeah, hand 1

Dont minraise preflop. Make it at least 18 to go if you want to play it. When the AA hits then you can bet it, but if you get action you are often in trouble with your rubbish kicker. I would have checked the river, figuring that he cant call with a hand that I beat.

As it turns out, villain is a total moron, but c'est la vie.

Hand 2, well at least you checked behind, and villain should have stacked you here.

Iago

just a small and pedantic point, because this level is far above what I play and I struggle to make money at the .25/.50 and .50/$1 tables, but the 2nd hand wasn't a bad beat. You were behind on every street and only your opponents bad play let you escape with any money left at all.

There are a lot of good posters here who play at higher levels than me and it would be well worth your while to take an hour or two out and look back over some of the old threads discussing hand histories, you'd learn a lot from those.

Good luck at the tables.

clint_silver

hector posted

If you play a lot you will experience horrible runs in which you cant win a single hand. Having a decent BR really makes these runs easier, as well as stop you going broke. 200 blinds is nothing, even the most passive players will experience 750 blind downswings, which is 4.5k at 36.

What do the terms "200 blinds" and "750 blind downswings" mean in the context of our discussion? I cant seem to equate the figures to anything.

RoundTower

clint_silver wrote:

hector posted


What do the terms "200 blinds" and "750 blind downswings" mean in the context of our discussion? I cant seem to equate the figures to anything.

He means a sum of money that is equal to 200 times the big blind. So at $3/$6 NL that would be $1200. A 750 blind downswing means you lose the equivalent of 750 big blinds, which is $4500.

If you haven't lost more than $1000 in a session of $3/$6 NL, you're probably not playing very well or you have some kind of artificial stop loss system where you tell yourself you'll quit after you lose a certain amount.

clint_silver

thanks RT, that is what i thought it meant but as I havent experienced those losses i wasnt sure.
I (think I) understand what you mean about not playing well if i havent lost that big at some stage.

All I can say is I am playing very cautiously. I tend not to get involved in bigger pots unless I have what Id consider to be a winning hand. The best example I can give is in my original post, if I had 77 and another 7 came down id get naturally excited but with the other As down, I might stay out. Yes I wont win big, but no I wont lose big either. the trips As scenario happened 2-3 weeks ago but it was playing on my mind. my game has tightened up even more since then.
When my game gets so I feel Im reading players after a couple of hours at a table I might change that cautious behaviour. I wont let myself be bullied with betting but if I know have the best hand I will stay in with a aggresive better and thats where currently I find my biggest pots. By folding a few times to aggresive betting, then if I keep calling instead of raising the aggresive better who wants me to fold as Id done before. tadaaa... Patience is the key to that and it may happen only once a night, but I've no problem waiting.


My own aggresive style may come in good time though. I'm currently quite content to doggy paddle away watching some guys swim by me and others sink to the bottom of the pool, if you know what I mean