Timber floors and glue........sorry...

Tobi2

Hi all again
Ok, sorry in advance for dragging this one up again, but can someone explain the following to me:

Timber flooring, semi solid or laminate, tongue groove/one click whatever you want to call it......Is it possible to lay this as is on a concrete floor with ufh WITHOUT glueing it down?
If so, why would one glue it down, what are the advantages and is it essential to glue it?

Thanks in advance.
Tobi

thetourist

Tobi2 wrote:

Hi all again
Ok, sorry in advance for dragging this one up again, but can someone explain the following to me:

Timber flooring, semi solid or laminate, tongue groove/one click whatever you want to call it......Is it possible to lay this as is on a concrete floor with ufh WITHOUT glueing it down?
If so, why would one glue it down, what are the advantages and is it essential to glue it?

Thanks in advance.
Tobi

i'm not an expert but this is what i think i know

normally you dont glue down anything to the slab
normally you float it - ie nail, glue or click it together ( tongues to grooves )and it floats on a layer of foam , not glued down

however i have underfloor heating and i was told that for solid or semi you have to actually glue it to the slab
it took me ages to research this because i kept getting told different things by different groups
eventually i think i cracked it - you have to use special glue - it cost E400 for our 3 rooms - just the GLUE ! - it's elastic i think - so you can glue it to the slab and it can expand

a lot depends on if you have underfloor - if you havent then i dont think you would glue it down at all - if you do have underfloor then i'm told you have to glue it to the slab

if you dont have to then there are really no advantages that i can see - it costs more - the carperters think it's a crap job ( it's actually more like tiling than carpenrty ) and you're supposed to have to kango it up if you want to change it

laminate click has the big advantage of being entirely portable - so move house and take it with you. - i think you might be able to do a similar thing with solid/semi solid if you nail it together instead of glueing it togeher - but i dont know why you would glue it - but i think that's the norm
hope that helps - but like i said it's a big deal so make sure you confirm this

ps i have a laminate floor that's clicked together and floated - why i was able to do this and not float the solid i have no idea

charlesanto

the reason you should us glue above UFH is for heat transfere...
suppose you floated the floor, there'd be a pocket of air trapped between the sub floor and the wooden floor, this would act as insulation and the heat wouldn't get through to your room efficiently !

thetourist

charlesanto wrote:

the reason you should us glue above UFH is for heat transfere...
suppose you floated the floor, there'd be a pocket of air trapped between the sub floor and the wooden floor, this would act as insulation and the heat wouldn't get through to your room efficiently !

any idea why you can float a laminate on UFH - or is that not correct

Lex Luthor

If you want to go with a solid floor, best use Junckers clic system when used with UFH. Expensive though.

charlesanto

gumboots wrote:

any idea why you can float a laminate on UFH - or is that not correct

... i'm not an expert but i think it is wrong to use laminates with UFH

yop

Laminates are fine for UFH, I know a number of people who have them in with no issues, maybe there are some laminates more suitable than others though

thetourist

yop wrote:

Laminates are fine for UFH, I know a number of people who have them in with no issues, maybe there are some laminates more suitable than others though

i was told i could use a laminate but only if the underlay was designed for ufh - and i have no issues and it's down about 6mths

big_al

Laminate is a man made material and therefore very stable when it comes to the temp changes associated with UFH. Both laminate and well made semi-solid can 'float' on your concrete slab with the correct underlay (admonter are 1 manufacturer of this stuff - it's basically a waxed corrugated cardboard). Ok, there will be some heat loss but this is minimal assuming the insulation below your UFH pipes is sufficient.

Cheap semi-solids and most solids will buckle with UFH. That admonter co. also manufacture semi & solid flooring designed for UFH. 'InHouse' at the panelling centre are resellers. The manufacturer website is http://www.admonter.at/

Laying solids via the 'full-contact' (glue down) method is in my opinion an unecessarily expensive option. AND, I'd hate to have to take that floor up!! As Lex states - Junckers clip system is the way to go if it must be solids. But Junckers have a limited range of colours. Also, solids will be thicker boards (for stability) than semi and therefore add more unwanted insulation from the UFH pipes.

Hope this helps,
big_al

Tobi2

Thank you all for replies.
Big Al, you have answered my question re glue and I was thinking myself it is an expensive (messy and unnecessary?) option.

Have you any recommendations on what is a good semi solid?
I have spoken with a manufacturer of solid boards and they told me they don't de semi solids as they just cannot find a reasonably priced good one for retail.
I am curious as there seems to be lots out there, and prices vary A LOT.
Where is it coming from?

Had another chat this morning with a Junckers guy and they were on about a Junckers underlay, called Polylay.....and then to put a dpc on the floor also?
Is this really necessary?
I would think any kind of plastic/polythene is going to stop heat also?

In Finland, as far as I know, where ufh is the norm, it is underlay and floor, all kinds, semi, laminate and solid and something simple isn't complicated at all......

Thanks in advance.
Tobi

big_al

Np Tobi.

The admonter semi-solids are top quality. And the finishes/colours available are second to none. It ain't cheap though: Their 'Mocca' semi solid range (see website) costs between €60-€80 per m2. But you can argue that price down a bit.

Noyeks also sell good semi-solids from €30 per m2. They guarantee it with UFH and I've laid this upstairs almost 2 years ago without problems. Although, I would leave it packed and laying flat in your house (with normal heating conditions) 4 weeks prior to laying as it will have a higher moisture content than the admonter.

In general, semi-solid boards offers greater stabilty than solid with UFH and in my mind is the safer option. Laminates offer best stability but they are a 'print' and don't feel or sound as nice under-foot.

I've never heard of polylay, probably similar to admonter underlay - I'd recommend that as it offers both sound and moisture insulation. Therefore no polythene/dpm needed. Air-gaps do act as an insulator, but in UFH terms, the heat has nowhere else to go but up, therefore heat loss will barely be noticeable (as opposed to full-contact laying).

On that note, the screed floor temp and finished floor temp will be different (I'd guess about a 5 degree drop) no matter which installation method you choose.

Good luck,
big_al

Tobi2

Hi BigAl
Thanks so much for reply.
Is it Noyeks own brand that you laid upstairs? What underlay did you use and no glue I am guessing?
Do you have ufh upstairs?
My apologies for all the questions, I have yet to meet anyone who has actually done this and can tell the tale, in this country.

Tbh, we were all set to go with semi solid then started looking around and the amount of conflicting info is kinda scary.
Got two totally conflicting recommendations on one particular floor, one store advised no problem with ufh and how to lay and the other complete opposite saying it is not suitable at all, "ring the rep if you don't believe me".
Bottom line is of course, nobody seems to know (or understand) what they are talking about.
Very frustrating.
Started looking at Junckers again yesterday and while we had eliminated them due to cost, there is one particular floor that we like and it seems to be an easy system to lay and has a long lifespan.
We don't want to be doing this floor again.......!

It was Noyeks (not in Dublin) that recommended the Polylay (and dpm but I think that was some male salesspeak talking the talk. I find when hubby is doing the quizzing they are different.)

As a matter of interest where is the Admonter available?
I have never seen it anywhere.

Re heat loss I am not overly worried, the floor is v.well insulated and even now when there is any activity (and this is without habitation) the upstairs is v.warm.

Sorry for bombarding you with all the questions.
Thanks so much for all your information and advice so far.
Tobi

Tobi2

Gumboots, just reread your replies and I think we are running into same probs as you had, differing reports depending who you ask.
V.frustrating and to me making something relatively simple v.complicated.
I mean they are doing this on the continent for years - are they not?

What underlay did you use under the laminate flooring?

Thanks in advance.
Tobi

thetourist

Tobi2 wrote:

Gumboots, just reread your replies and I think we are running into same probs as you had, differing reports depending who you ask.
V.frustrating and to me making something relatively simple v.complicated.
I mean they are doing this on the continent for years - are they not?

What underlay did you use under the laminate flooring?

Thanks in advance.
Tobi

it was just foam but without the ( foil or whatever is the thing that is normally on there aswell as the foam )
just thin white foam really - about 3-4mm uncompressed

big_al

Hi tobi,

Not sure what brand upstairs, "Country" somethin or other red oak semi-solid upstairs. It is floating on UFH and only the t&g joints are glued. Underlay was from admonter - you can buy this and their flooring from "In-House" at the panelling centre. Do go to there and check out the admonter mocca flooring range - you'll simply want it as soon as you see it!! http://www.in-house.ie/

Noyeks guaranteed that their semi-solid would be OK with UFH. They recommended I leave it 'acclimatise' (unopened, laid flat, heat on) for two weeks, so I did so for four (just to be sure)

Did a quick google on polylay - has moisture membrane (good) but not sure if it insulates too well to be used for UFH.

I've no problem with questions - ask all you want :-)

take care,
big_al

Tobi2

Hi guys
Thanks again for replies.
Big Al, did you lay onto concrete slab/screed, and if so, did you lay dpc before Admonter?
Are you worried about "never really dry" concrete or because of ufh, surely the floor is dry as is?
Sorry, I am beginning to feel very thick the more I think about this!

Had a look at Junckers stuff again and it seems they do recommend dpc, polylay (with it's moisture membrane) then timber....
What's with all the plastic??

Anyone out there with a Junckers floor and laid as above on ufh?
Thanks in advance.
Tobi

Tobi2

Big Al, thanks for the link btw, bad move though.
I have been drooling over some other floors at keenm.ie also, and they are luverly.
V.pricey though..

Tobi

big_al

Hi tobi,

on the ground floor I laid a 1200 guage polyurethane dpm. It's cheap as chips in a roll from your local builders providers. Subsequently, the floor supplier told me that the dpm was unecessary with admonter underlay. I'd say it's better to use it than not.

Of course, the UFH will dry out the slab very quickly. How long since teh concrete was poured and have you had the heat on much?

big_al

CJhaughey

I will be laying solid pine floor in a few weeks, we have UFH and it has been on since last sunday night 22nd Jan,it is night rate electric and is embedded in the slab, you can definately feel the difference now.
I bought a moisture meter from ebay to check the moisture content of the wood as it has been sitting in the house since September and will have picked up moisture from the atmosphere.
in the samples I checked water content ranged from 8% to 14% according to my supplier anything 9% and below will not move much if at all.
The spec for the solid floor is simply polyethene sheeting and jiffy foam and the floor floats on that.
I reckon that it will take about 2 weeks to dry the slab enough that it will not affect the floor too much.

Tobi2

Hi guys
Sorry for not getting back to this sooner.
Ok, we are having the big money discussion tonight, re what we are going to fork out for the floor...We had decided more or less, but just got our JCB man's bill.....so I am :eek: :eek: while Hubby is !!
Hoping to purchase this week as there are a few Sales to be taken advantage of..though I am not one for "Sales" as such, but you know how it is!

The floor has been laid for over a year, I probably neglected to mention that this is possibly the longest self build in the history of Ireland, and we are exceptionally slow at getting things done, mainly due to homework/research and real life stepping in here and there.
It is relatively dry now but as you know when the ufh goes on it will dry out further, CJ was v.interested to read your exp since ufh going on.
We have heaters in there at the moment as wanted to get some woodwork done, and the house is roasting, as it would be if we had rads in and on, but the floor is a different kettle of fish.
The plan is to buy the floor and leave it sitting in house then just lay it after it has acclimatised, according to manufacturers instructions.
I was speaking to the Junckers rep the other day and he tells me that all their floors now have moisture content less than 8% and they do not need acclimatising? This doesn't bother me too much as the floor will be sitting there anyway between waiting for it to be laid etc so will be acclimatised anyway.
I am anticipating heating going on within 3-4weeks though that is assuming everything between now and then goes according to plan.....:D

CJ, I was pricing Moisture Meters on ebay, and most seem to be coming to £15stg etc, does this sound about right? Is there such a MM as the wrong one??
The Junckers guy was most helpful and he is in the locality early Feb, offered to come round and measure m.content of our floors etc and was v.adamant that they stand over their products etc.
Going to look at other options this week too so will see what we can afford....and take it from there.

Thanks a million for all the help and advice.
I am sure I will be back with more questions.....

Tobi

yop

Tobi - Where did u spot them metres, our heat is going on today or tomorrow and looking at spreading the semi-solid out on the floor next week, then installing in 3 weeks.

I have the dehumidifier on all the time so I am expect feck all moisture

big_al

Hi yop,

I assume you mean opening the flooring packs to acclimatise. Best you don't do this as you run the risk of boards warping slightly as the moisture level drops. Is best (and recommended) to leave the boards laying flat and in their original packing for a number of weeks.


big_al

Tobi2

Hi Yop
Did a quick search on ebay.co.uk for Moisture Meter.
Also googled stuff and got in touch with a company, just pot luck whatever came up first and emailed for more info etc, www.wmsupplies.com for a "real" MM ie from a specialist company;
Price quoted for Wagner MMC205 (+shipping from UK) is:
£263.20STG :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek:

Obviously I won't be forking out this much for one, as I don't plan a future of moisture checking..though I can see the novelty of it all for a few weeks..
Hence my question to CJ re the legitimacy of MMs on ebay etc.
Maybe Kadman could shed more light on this issue, isn't he a woodworker/turner?

Do you reckon there is a rental market for MMs??

Tobi

yop

Jaysus that is gas, 2 other people have said to take them out of the packages!!

charlesanto

Jaysus that is gas, 2 other people have said to take them out of the packages!!

Don't take them out ! They will warp !

squire1

Leave them in the wrapper yop. Stack them on a flat surface and don't open until you are ready to lay them.

Now three people have said leave them wrapped, so majority rules!!!!;)

yop

"I'm me own person"

Cheers lads, will do.

CJhaughey

I don't know about those expensive moisture meters but I am pretty confident that the one that I bought €40 or so from hong kong is good enough for my purposes, like Tobi2 says I don't intend on making a career out of checking the moisture content of things but I figure that with something like a floor it is only small change inthe overall scheme of things.
This is the meter I bought: http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Wood-Moisture-meter-Holz_W0QQitemZ7586567716QQcategoryZ58148QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
and TBH it seems good enough for what I want it for.
The UFH has been on for over a week now and has made a huge difference to the place, the slab has changed colour and everything is drying out bigtime, We are obviously in a hurry to get in but I don't want to rush the floor as I need to sand and finish the taped joints before the floor goes down.
I am also going to lye the floor and then sand back and white oil the floor to give it a distressed look.
I will be checking the floor later this evening and will post regarding the moisture content of the wood.

Tobi2

Hi CJ
Thanks a million for reply. I was looking at that mm myself, so may go ahead and get it.
I can imagine the ufh being on making a huge difference alright, I can't wait to say the same about our place.
Would be delighted to know also the m. content of the floor after the ufh being on for a while.

Best of luck
Tobi

yop

At least we know who are we are bidding against now Tobi on Ebay

FrankGrimes

I've read through several posts here on this subject but can't definitively figure out what would be best for my scenario (I don't have underfloor heating).

I have to lay 24 sq metres of solid acacia floors in my extension soon and am wondering what's the best way to do it. I did the sitting room in the existing house by laying plywood directly onto the concrete and securing it with loads of 60mm (or 40mm can't remember) express anchors. I then secret nailed the acacia directly into the plywood.

This gave a finish that is solid as a rock and also very quiet, but I probably used too high a grade of plywood as it was difficult to break it's surface with the first strike of the portanailer.

I was thinking of glueing the acacia directly to the concrete in the extension as it will be in the dining part of a kitchen/dining open plan room and it would make it easier to join the acacia to the tiles in the kitchen part. The cost for the express anchors and plywood I used wasn't cheap either, though for some reason I still think this is the 'proper' job. The kitchen part of the new kitchen/dining room had old floor boards nailed directly into it and pulling these up revealed a very rough uneven concrete floor, so I'll be pouring concrete in that part to level it either way.

I've been advised against doing the glue myself as it's supposed to be very difficult, but to be honest I'd like to lay it myself as I enjoy doing it and like sitting in the sitting room knowing I laid the floor, it also saves on the cost of paying someone to lay it with glue.

From the sounds of it there seem to be some types of underlay that have adhesive on both sides which might be ideal as it would absorb minor bumps and also be far less messy than glueing. Does anyone have any experience with these and are there any particular ones I should consider? Would appreciate peoples' advice on what best suits my scenario. Thanks

Do-more

FrankGrimes wrote:

I've read through several posts here on this subject but can't definitively figure out what would be best for my scenario (I don't have underfloor heating).

I have to lay 24 sq metres of solid acacia floors in my extension soon and am wondering what's the best way to do it. I did the sitting room in the existing house by laying plywood directly onto the concrete and securing it with loads of 60mm (or 40mm can't remember) express anchors. I then secret nailed the acacia directly into the plywood.

This gave a finish that is solid as a rock and also very quiet, but I probably used too high a grade of plywood as it was difficult to break it's surface with the first strike of the portanailer.

I was thinking of glueing the acacia directly to the concrete in the extension as it will be in the dining part of a kitchen/dining open plan room and it would make it easier to join the acacia to the tiles in the kitchen part. The cost for the express anchors and plywood I used wasn't cheap either, though for some reason I still think this is the 'proper' job. The kitchen part of the new kitchen/dining room had old floor boards nailed directly into it and pulling these up revealed a very rough uneven concrete floor, so I'll be pouring concrete in that part to level it either way.

I've been advised against doing the glue myself as it's supposed to be very difficult, but to be honest I'd like to lay it myself as I enjoy doing it and like sitting in the sitting room knowing I laid the floor, it also saves on the cost of paying someone to lay it with glue.

From the sounds of it there seem to be some types of underlay that have adhesive on both sides which might be ideal as it would absorb minor bumps and also be far less messy than glueing. Does anyone have any experience with these and are there any particular ones I should consider? Would appreciate peoples' advice on what best suits my scenario. Thanks

Hi Frank - Yeh there's nothing quiet like the satisfaction of knowing you have done the job yourself and from the sound of it you have been doing a great job on it.

I glued about 55 sq. m of engineered flooring direct to the concrete myself and while I would say that it is more difficult than floating it, I wouldn't say that it was "very difficult".

To ensure a good job when glueing you really need to have a nice smooth level floor, mine was a power floated slab and even so I have too small spots (each about the size of a dinner plate) where the flooring has lost bond, I think due to small dips. From your description of the subfloor, you would need to use a good levelling compound such as Ardex K15 and this will be as much or more work than your other option of sheeting and nailing.

My opinion would be to stick with the devil you know and continue with the nailing.

You could of course bring up the level of the kitchen sub-floor to reduce the difference in floor levels. My advice would be not to use regular portland cement, but a rapid drying mortar or a levelling compound. Ring Technical service in RS Sales in Dundrum on 01 6731300 for advice, they distribute Ardex products which I can highly reccommend.

I haven't used the self-adhesive underlay myself, but have seen a guy doing it and it seemed to be very high tack and I wouldn't fancy doing it myself!

Hope this helps.