Advice on Speaker Cable + where to buy?

thedesigntribe

Hi, I'm currently rewiring the house and I want to get in a multi-room speaker layout setup. I'd love a www.sonos.com but will have to go the 'hard-wired & switcher box' route for the time being.

This is a full rewire, can you recommend an inexpensive acceptable quality speaker cable, I need 300meters so cost is an issue (definitely want to spend sub 99cent per meter).

Also where can I buy this online, I read the 'where to buy' sticky to no avail, I saw www.hificables.co.uk but left more confused than I arrived.

I also need 300meters of CT100, anyone know where this can be got?

Cheers

Lump

www.canford.co.uk are *The* cable people. Might be expensive, but they'll sell you a roll. Just looked, single screened cable is 1.22 Euro a metre if you get over 100.

John

thedesigntribe

Thanks Lump.

They have 300 meters of CT100 for €150, not bad!

I really could do with help choosing from here http://www.canford.co.uk/commerce/categorybrowse.aspx?TreePosId=3000134

GENERAL PURPOSE LOUDSPEAKER CABLE is 34 cent per meter.

The same stuff in 4 core is .53cent - is this worth it?
Anyone have opinions on shielded stuff?


Cheers

Lump

Van de Hul are good cable makers.... (From www.hificables) but that site seems to only sell predefined lengths. In a local music shop, you can pick up standard speaker cable cheaply enough.

John

Lump

4 Core is pointless.... unless you have the connectors on the speaker. It might be good if you want to run 4 audio feeds along on cable, and then take each of 4 speakers off a different colour. Would mean you'd only have one cable to run. Single Screened should be fine....

I really have to go out, I'll reply more when I get back.


John

voxpop

would the van den hul speaker cable (http://www.hificables.co.uk/ProductDetails/mcs/productID/11327/groupID/710/categoryID/2394/v/6f23cada-97ce-4d48-add6-871c35e85d17) be better that this shark(maplin) stuff http://www.maplin.co.uk/module.aspx?TabID=1&criteria=SHARK%20speaker%20cable&ModuleNo=51&doy=19m1

thedesigntribe

I really could do with help choosing from here http://www.canford.co.uk/commerce/categorybrowse.aspx?TreePosId=3000134

GENERAL PURPOSE LOUDSPEAKER CABLE is 34 cent per meter.

Anyone have opinions on shielded stuff?

voxpop

from what ive read, basically the thicker the better and those cables look very thin - on some of the av forums ppl recommend cat5 cable and use it to make, what they claim, are great speaker cables - might be worth checking out ?

eg http://www.audioholics.com/techtips/setup/interconnects/DIYSpeakerCablesp1.html
more : http://www.avforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=221626&highlight=cat5

Idleater

thedesigntribe wrote:

I really could do with help choosing from here http://www.canford.co.uk/commerce/categorybrowse.aspx?TreePosId=3000134

GENERAL PURPOSE LOUDSPEAKER CABLE is 34 cent per meter.

Anyone have opinions on shielded stuff?

Hi,

I ran 50 meters at €.50/m off a reel that I got from a local HomeInstallation place. It is the standard OFC stuff like these.
I ran 2 runs of 2 wires to each speakers becuse I am BiWiring all of them.

Sounds fine to me... I agree with voxpop saying that some of the other cables llook a little thin, but then having said that, I have seen some very nice clean expensive wire that was very very thin. The guy in the shop said it was great for running the tweeter when biwiring. I would tend to send the same guage wire to all the speakers though.

L.

Lump

voxpop wrote:

would the van den hul speaker cable (http://www.hificables.co.uk/ProductDetails/mcs/productID/11327/groupID/710/categoryID/2394/v/6f23cada-97ce-4d48-add6-871c35e85d17) be better that this shark(maplin) stuff http://www.maplin.co.uk/module.aspx?TabID=1&criteria=SHARK%20speaker%20cable&ModuleNo=51&doy=19m1

Van de Hul would be better essentially it's the daddy of Audio Cable.

John

Lump

http://www.canford.co.uk/commerce/item_34-270_3001262.aspx is fine Speaker cable generally isn't screened.... as there's normally no where to connect the screen at the amp/speaker end. You could buy this http://www.canford.co.uk/commerce/item_33-259_3001265.aspx ay 1.61 per metre.... but I think the normal .34 cable would be fine. What is the maximum length you'd be running?

John

thedesigntribe

Cheers guys/girls

Short runs - the max length would be 15 meters approx.

Lump

The 0.34 cable will be fine, any one telling you other wise, is clearly talking out of their ass.

John

Lump

nereid wrote:

Hi,

I ran 50 meters at €.50/m off a reel that I got from a local HomeInstallation place. It is the standard OFC stuff like these.
I ran 2 runs of 2 wires to each speakers becuse I am BiWiring all of them.

Sounds fine to me... I agree with voxpop saying that some of the other cables llook a little thin, but then having said that, I have seen some very nice clean expensive wire that was very very thin. The guy in the shop said it was great for running the tweeter when biwiring. I would tend to send the same guage wire to all the speakers though.

L.

As a matter of interest, why are you bi-wiring them?

John

commited

Lump wrote:

Van de Hul are good cable makers.... (From www.hificables) but that site seems to only sell predefined lengths. In a local music shop, you can pick up standard speaker cable cheaply enough.

John

Certain shops sell them "off the roll" type thing, so it's easy enough to get custom cables made.

Lump wrote:

4 Core is pointless.... unless you have the connectors on the speaker. It might be good if you want to run 4 audio feeds along on cable, and then take each of 4 speakers off a different colour. Would mean you'd only have one cable to run. Single Screened should be fine....

I really have to go out, I'll reply more when I get back.
John

Why not run 4core cables and use 2 cores per binding post - it should improve the signal (generally thicker = better).

Lump wrote:

Van de Hul would be better essentially it's the daddy of Audio Cable.

John

I disagree After listening to lots and lots of commercial cables over my time, Nordost are definately the daddys. Silly silly expensive though.. Van den Hul make some good stuff though.

To the OP - what setup will you be using? Using cheap speaker cable in your additional rooms is a good idea if it will just be for casual listening, but try and keep your main rooms speaker cable of reasonable quality.
Dont use Cat5 for long runs - the resistance is too high. It's fine for <5m runs though. ( http://www.tnt-audio.com/clinica/triple_t_e.html )
There is no real need to go for screened cables, as speaker cables transmit high voltages, and are thus less sensitive to outside effects. Try to keep power/speaker & interconnects at right angles to each other.

I'm a biwiring sceptic too. I think an equal, if not better result can be had from spending twice as much on the speaker cable and just running a single run to the speakers, and using speaker cable in place of the metal bridge they supply you with. I currently bi-amp my speakers, which I think is the main reason that the 4 post designs were released

Lump

commited wrote:

Certain shops sell them "off the roll" type thing, so it's easy enough to get custom cables made.

I know, but that specific site sells predefined lengths, hene my suggestion of going to music shops.

Why not run 4core cables and use 2 cores per binding post - it should improve the signal (generally thicker = better).

I don't think it's worth the .25 Euro, or what ever the difference is per metre.... it won't make a huge difference.

I disagree After listening to lots and lots of commercial cables over my time, Nordost are definately the daddys. Silly silly expensive though.. Van den Hul make some good stuff though.

Indeed they are, but as you say, they're very expensive, Van Den Hul are good on the quality/cost.

There is no real need to go for screened cables, as speaker cables transmit high voltages, and are thus less sensitive to outside effects. Try to keep power/speaker & interconnects at right angles to each other.

I still think it's a good idea to use screened, as in a house you're never too sure of the way the power cables run, and the inductance of the mains.

John

Idleater

Lump wrote:

As a matter of interest, why are you bi-wiring them?

John

Hi John,

The main reason is the better sound seperation and clear trebble that I get from the amp. I prefer minimising the crossovers at the speakers as the amp seems to be doing a better job of it. I am also not using the sub at the minute so I am trying to maintain as clear a bass signal as I can for the fronts.

The current amp BiAmps the front (a and b zones) and the new amp can BiAmp the front speakers and because it is a 7.1 amp and as I am only using 5.1 and not using the zone2 and zone3 features I can BiAmp the rears as well.

L.

Lump

Fair play. Just wondered.

John

Lump

Interesting read about Bi-Wiring and Bi-Amping http://www.whathifi.com/newsMainTemplate.asp?storyID=59&newssectionID=3

John

commited

Another interesting article on bi-amping..

http://sound.westhost.com/bi-amp.htm

Idleater

Just read those articles on BiAmping and it certainly makes interesting reading all right.

I think that the moral of the story for the OP - thedesigntribe - is that if you can, put down two runs of speaker cable or run the 4 core one to each speaker location "just in case" and then you have the opportunity of biAmp and BiWiring if you so choose at a point in the future.

L.

thedesigntribe

wow, just read those, very interesting... but dangerous - I have enough anoraks to wear without trying on this particularly wooly duffel coat ;-)

Cheers all.

Lump

Dangerous? Live with it, you are a nerd!

John

[nicK]

while we're on the topic, i need to get a longer audio cable to connect my speakers (basic 2.1) to my laptop..
i think the name of the cable is "stereo to stereo" and i need it at least 5metres long, possibly 10, any idea where i'd get one?

CivilServant

Bought some cheap speaker cable from peats recently. 60c per metre, sound pretty good from my 603s

commited

That stuff is little better than electrical wire.
My dad was using electrical wire with a high end Linn/Meridian/B&W system for years. It sounded good. It sounded better after a bit of money was thrown at the cables though

CivilServant

Wire's wire at the end of the day. How much of a difference can it make? Personally I think it's all marketing, but I've never heard lots of different speaker cables.

commited

Wrong, copper and silver can vary greatly in purity.
Cables make a difference - cables arent going to make hardware better, but they'll make sure that you get the best out of your system.
I'd never spend much on cables, but I do believe that if you have a decent enough system, you should use decent enough cables.

CivilServant

I always like tangible improvements but technically and aurally, what is different in the sound?

commited

It generally depends on the system..
better cables reveal more detail, change the tonal balance of a system to suit etc.
It's really something you have to find out for yourself. There are cable sceptics and people who think cables are everything. I'm somewhere on the sceptic side of average - I know they make a difference - but I'd rather spend my money on better hardware!

pH

Well let's see if anyone will claim anything concrete about cables apart from subjective nonsense like 'better separation' and 'fluid resonances' etc.

Apart from resistance (and possibly shielding) what measurable qualities could one length of cable have over another?

It's been proved over and over that when audiophiles are told they're listening to expensive equipment they'll hear the improvement, when the tests are double-blind then no-one can tell the difference.

commited

Have you ever heard the difference?

I've done blind tests. I heard a difference. I dont really care that much.

Idleater

pH wrote:

Well let's see if anyone will claim anything concrete about cables apart from subjective nonsense like 'better separation' and 'fluid resonances' etc.

Apart from resistance (and possibly shielding) what measurable qualities could one length of cable have over another?

It's been proved over and over that when audiophiles are told they're listening to expensive equipment they'll hear the improvement, when the tests are double-blind then no-one can tell the difference.

Right,

As sound is "transmitted" from the amp to the speakers, it essentially is a series of voltage changes. These voltage changes move the magnet at the speaker which in turn move the speaker cone which produces the sound.

if you imagine a bass sound as a big push of the cone, and a spoken word as a number of small ocilations of a smaller seperate cone, then you can see how signals can interfere with eachother.

Seperating the low and high frequences is well documented, and at the very least can do no harm.

The quality of the wire to transmit the electrical signals can make a difference because the more resistance along the wire, the more that the signal has to be amplified to get the same volume out of the speakers at the end. Amplifing adds noise, noise means bigger voltages, bigger voltages mean more interference between signals, interference translates into poorer audible quality etc etc...

You see, what you are terming "subjective nonsense" with regard to "better seperation" really at the end of the day does boil down to measurable qualities like resistance and shielding.

In fact, isn't "subjective" the entire purpose of listening? I mean, if I like the better seperated sound, and you like the rounded sound, it doesn't mean that either of us is wrong. Or does it?

To sort this out, there should be a meeting arranged in a room, with an amp, a set of speakers, a run of speaker cable and a run of bell wire and then we will see if what you are "claiming" is correct or not...

L.

pH

As sound is "transmitted" from the amp to the speakers, it essentially is a series of voltage changes. These voltage changes move the magnet at the speaker which in turn move the speaker cone which produces the sound.

if you imagine a bass sound as a big push of the cone, and a spoken word as a number of small ocilations of a smaller seperate cone, then you can see how signals can interfere with eachother.

Seperating the low and high frequences is well documented, and at the very least can do no harm.

I'm not talking about your bi-amping stuff (though I think you're kidding yourself on the sound at least there is a plausible explanation)

The quality of the wire to transmit the electrical signals can make a difference because the more resistance along the wire, the more that the signal has to be amplified to get the same volume out of the speakers at the end. Amplifing adds noise, noise means bigger voltages, bigger voltages mean more interference between signals, interference translates into poorer audible quality etc etc...

You see, what you are terming "subjective nonsense" with regard to "better seperation" really at the end of the day does boil down to measurable qualities like resistance and shielding.

And that would make sense if that's how the cable manufactures sold and marketed their products, but you know what - they don't.

In fact, isn't "subjective" the entire purpose of listening? I mean, if I like the better seperated sound, and you like the rounded sound, it doesn't mean that either of us is wrong. Or does it?

No except we're both hearing the same thing - the separation and rounding is all in our minds.

To sort this out, there should be a meeting arranged in a room, with an amp, a set of speakers, a run of speaker cable and a run of bell wire and then we will see if what you are "claiming" is correct or not...

Can we try some Solar Wind (REV2) as well please?

Have a look here : http://www.cloneyaudio.com/pricelist.htm

(Oh and don't get me started on 'power cables', go to that page and search for Valhalla - I'll bet cloney audio has big glass windows to see them coming!)