Moving In - Last Chance Saloon

Culchie

On the concept of 'Live Cards' .... those times when you just have to make a move before the blinds come around again.

Can the staticians come up with an 'optimum hand' to make a move with... working on the basis that anyone with the range A9 - AK and any pairs 10 10+ will call you?

I've been think about this a little lately.

Is going in with 2 4 better than 7 9 ? Stupid at first glance, but you have an extra card working in your favour that your caller probably has as well ... the Ace.

I'm probably going to look like a donkey when the stats come out but what the heck.

Norwich Fan Rob

too much chance you opponent has 55, 66, 77, 88 i would think for 2, 4 to be better than 7,9 and anyway u are less likely to make a str8 with 2, 4 if u think your opponent has an ace, as one of your outs is gone.

(that said, 2,3 clubs is my new lucky hand after i was forced in with it a while ago with 18 players left in a €500 freezeout and ended up coming 3rd)

De Deraco

i like j10, 10-9 or 98 0r 87, personal experience more than anything, but i agree moving all in an early position with A7 or less seems to be suicide.

Hitman Actual

I'm not being smart here, but AA is obviously the optimum hand against that range. Maybe a rewording of the OP is required.

Culchie

lenny_leonard wrote:

I'm not being smart here, but AA is obviously the optimum hand against that range. Maybe a rewording of the OP is required.

Lenny, maybe you misread.

This is one of those occassions when you simply have to push before those blinds come to you the next time.

AA would be nice surely, but they tend to be few and far between.

Iago

Any Pair
Any suited connectors as low as 65
AK-A9
KQ-K9
QJ-Q8o
JT

would generally be hands that I would be happy pushing with if

1. no-one has entered the pot before me
2. I have at least 6*BBs left
3. There are 4 or less people to act after me

outside of that if the table has been playing tight I'll push with almost any two cards from Button-1 and the button. even occasionally from mid position.

[size=-12]maybe that's why I lose so much [/size]

Culchie

Iago wrote:

Any Pair
Any suited connectors as low as 65
AK-A9
KQ-K9
QJ-Q8o
JT

would generally be hands that I would be happy pushing with if

1. no-one has entered the pot before me
2. I have at least 6*BBs left
3. There are 4 or less people to act after me

outside of that if the table has been playing tight I'll push with almost any two cards from Button-1 and the button. even occasionally from mid position.

[size=-12]maybe that's why I lose so much [/size]

Recently I've very slightly amended this criteria that I also followed Iago. More from observation really, and applicable in live play rather than online.

Thoughts?

When the blinds are massive as they generally are on the final table, I like having one limper before me (none is fine) it's another bonus blind... Final Table players don't limp with good hands (well they are mad if they do) ... so it really can help your stack % dramitically, whether you get called or not ... it's very very rarely the limper calls.

Obviously you have to weigh up the limper that he's not a trappy type, but 90% of time, limper on final table is weak but mid-stacked.... and not willing to race.

Also obviously I won't be trying this against any boardsters either:)

Hitman Actual

Culchie wrote:

Lenny, maybe you misread.

Yeah, I did, must pay more attention. Going on the range that you give, a pair is better as you are only a ~11/10 dog. Any other live hand and you're around a 2/1 dog or worse.

What about folding equity? I suppose it's a case of working out the chance of someone having a hand in the range you give, which shouldn't be that hard.

Culchie wrote:

When the blinds are massive as they generally are on the final table, I like having one limper before me (none is fine) it's another bonus blind... Final Table players don't limp with good hands (well they are mad if they do) ... so it really can help your stack % dramitically, whether you get called or not ... it's very very rarely the limper calls.

Obviously you have to weigh up the limper that he's not a trappy type, but 90% of time, limper on final table is weak but mid-stacked.... and not willing to race.

Interesting... if that's the case then you can probably push with any hand.

Culchie

lenny_leonard wrote:

Yeah, I did, must pay more attention. Going on the range that you give, a pair is better as you are only a ~11/10 dog. Any other live hand and you're around a 2/1 dog or worse.

What about folding equity? I suppose it's a case of working out the chance of someone having a hand in the range you give, which shouldn't be that hard.



Interesting... if that's the case then you can probably push with any hand.

When the end is nigh, any 2 will do.

Lex

Culchie wrote:

When the end is nigh, any 2 will do.

Down to 5xBB 3 handed in the pokerlounge Tues night I stuck 'em in with 83o.
BB has the rockets! :eek: and the end was indeed nigh....

Culchie

Lex wrote:

Down to 5xBB 3 handed in the pokerlounge Tues night I stuck 'em in with 83o.
BB has the rockets! :eek: and the end was indeed nigh....

Same night different location, final table, 6BB left, one limper, stuck them in with J3, two callers, more than tripled up !

Gasps from railbirds:eek: ... AK player busted out muttering naughty words that ended in "J 3" ! I was deeply upset:D

Mind you I walked into rockets myself when down to last 4

BigDragon

Lex wrote:

Down to 5xBB 3 handed in the pokerlounge Tues night I stuck 'em in with 83o.
BB has the rockets! :eek: and the end was indeed nigh....

Which seat were you in Lex. I was the newbie between the Murray's....

White Knight

All in blind

my JJ called by A8 preflop (12k pot) in fitz crippled me so next hand was utg and went all in blind (1500- like ace EIGHT??) - 2 callers, with another shortstack being all in. Anyway i turned over J3 and ended up against J8 suited and Q4 suited and a 3 on the turn only help for anyone!

... felt good with no pressure or expectation of what others had because i had already in my mind said "im out"!

Lex

BigDragon wrote:

Which seat were you in Lex. I was the newbie between the Murray's....

I was 2 to ur left with the KQc against ur 34c.
They both made it to heads up and were hammering me 3 handed. Made a stand a few times....and it worked every-time!....until the last... :rolleyes:

BigDragon

Lex wrote:

I was 2 to ur left with the KQc against ur 34c.
They both made it to heads up and were hammering me 3 handed made a stand a few times....and it worked every-time!....until the last... :rolleyes:

Oops me.... I thought it was time to make a play from early position and thought you were on a big A and wanted to hit you with a stop-n-go if I hit and an A came. So a flush on the flop including the Ac was absolutely perfect for me. You had to have the nuts tho...:rolleyes:

The two of them went for a smoke together and I just know they were doing a deal between themselves to break the table so i needed chips to hit back at them and with the money only being in 1st and 2nd I wasnt folding to the money and made 3 moves that killed me. Lesson learned.

GG btw.

Culchie

Lex wrote:

I was 2 to ur left with the KQc against ur 34c.

wtf ... 34c ... from the rock Big D ? :v:

Lex

BigDragon wrote:

Oops me.... I thought it was time to make a play from early position and thought you were on a big A and wanted to hit you with a stop-n-go if I hit and an A came. So a flush on the flop including the Ac was absolutely perfect for me. You had to have the nuts tho...:rolleyes:

The two of them went for a smoke together and I just know they were doing a deal between themselves to break the table so i needed chips to hit back at them and with the money only being in 1st and 2nd I wasnt folding to the money and made 3 moves that killed me. Lesson learned.

GG btw.

Yea gg too. Third was absolute crap with practically money back. A few hands before I busted, Derek was a monster chip lead and crippled me (A9h) with a check-raise allin on a King high Flop. I pushed twice with 5/6BB and decent-ish hands but got no action. I stuck 'em in with the 83 then so I could show them if they passed to get some action on my next playable hand, but instead I walked into a monster!

Lex

Culchie wrote:

wtf ... 34c ... from the rock Big D ? :v:

Backdoor straight flush draw all the way!!

Gholimoli

i dont think you can comment here which hand is good or bad.
Moving all in is all situation dependent.
Moving all in with AKs whith 10BB is a good move.
However same move from same position with 30BB with others behind you that have as much as you or more is a donkey move.
Depending on your stack and stack of others, different cards would call for a push when short stacked.
Say you have 24o with 4BB and ur UTG+1.
UTG folds .should you go in? IMO absolutely, the cards don’t really matter at all here, you shouldn’t be looking for a good hand here, you should be looking for good situation. Here one player has folded and you’re the firs one in the pot and seen as your EP ,even though your stack is not threatening really but other EPs would be scared of people behind them raising so they will fold all but best of hands.
this i think is very important. Your looking for gambles and your chances of winning shouldn’t really matter as long as if you win it you will have a semi-threatening stack.
in the same example, say you refuse to go in and blinds come and go and your down to just 2.5BB.now u get AA and push and win the hand. now what?
back were you were. me personally when my stack gets to around 5 or 4,then dont really care about the cards as long as im the first on in the pot.

5starpool

Gholimoli wrote:

i dont think you can comment here which hand is good or bad.
Moving all in is all situation dependent.
Moving all in with AKs whith 10BB is a good move.
However same move from same position with 30BB with others behind you that have as much as you or more is a donkey move.
Depending on your stack and stack of others, different cards would call for a push when short stacked.
Say you have 24o with 4BB and ur UTG+1.
UTG folds .should you go in? IMO absolutely, the cards don’t really matter at all here, you shouldn’t be looking for a good hand here, you should be looking for good situation. Here one player has folded and you’re the firs one in the pot and seen as your EP ,even though your stack is not threatening really but other EPs would be scared of people behind them raising so they will fold all but best of hands.
this i think is very important. Your looking for gambles and your chances of winning shouldn’t really matter as long as if you win it you will have a semi-threatening stack.
in the same example, say you refuse to go in and blinds come and go and your down to just 2.5BB.now u get AA and push and win the hand. now what?
back were you were. me personally when my stack gets to around 5 or 4,then dont really care about the cards as long as im the first on in the pot.

Reading your posts always hurt my head. This is not a content comment, but a structure comment. Spaces, line breaks, and punctuation are not illegal on boards afaik.

DeVore

Culchie, whats your stack compared to the blinds? Its important, because if I only have one BB then I may let the BB force me in if I really hate the hands I get when UTG and UTG+1.

Btw, what you describe is known as a "squeeze play", you use the second limper to force the first limper (who probably has the best hand but the worst position) out of the hand because of the presence of the second limper (who is probably just looking to see a flop).
Its a good tactic but better players may see through it.

DeV.

Gholimoli

sorry dude,
english is not my first language lol
honestly

Culchie

DeVore wrote:

Culchie, whats your stack compared to the blinds? Its important, because if I only have one BB then I may let the BB force me in if I really hate the hands I get when UTG and UTG+1.

Btw, what you describe is known as a "squeeze play", you use the second limper to force the first limper (who probably has the best hand but the worst position) out of the hand because of the presence of the second limper (who is probably just looking to see a flop).
Its a good tactic but better players may see through it.

DeV.

Hey Dev.. this is last chance saloon territory, you've taken a beat and you're down to less than 5BB's.

I wouldn't classify the scenario I'm talking about as 'squeezeplay' per se ... or at least I wasn't trying to present it as that. It's just an observation I've made on final tables recently.

Bigger stacks tend to bully, smaller stacks obviously have to push, but middle stacks often like to limp, not commit, and (protect their 'safe 4th or 5th' wait for shorties to bust)... it's the perfect time to make that move.

As for better players seeing through it ... yup, you gotta get the timing right and judge who the opponents are (there's also the double/reverse bluff thinking that would go on between regular sparring partners)...but remember we're talking last stand saloon here anyway, so if I'm going out, I'm going out all guns blazin' ! BTW, sometimes you do have a good hand;)

The Snapper

Lex wrote:

Down to 5xBB 3 handed in the pokerlounge Tues night I stuck 'em in with 83o.
BB has the rockets! :eek: and the end was indeed nigh....

Drogheda tourney last night blinds 800 / 1500 pushed for 7k with 8-4o Called by button with 88. :eek: board Q3657 Str8 OMG I win .

Nice to be the other end for a change.

Culchie

The Snapper wrote:

Drogheda tourney last night blinds 800 / 1500 pushed for 7k with 8-4o Called by button with 88. :eek: board Q3657 Str8 OMG I win .

Nice to be the other end for a change.

Hi Brendan,

It kinda balances out what happened to your son last night on second last table.

I think that is probably the worst call I ever seen at a poker table that the villan made to dog him. I'm still shocked today.
That fellah finished 3rd....you should post it up for the boardsters.

He put another fellah who was sitting to my right on tilt as well, a good player, but he just imploded from pure annoyance at the villan I think, when he should have cruised onto the final table. He busted out stupidly.

I was going to write a report on last night, but such was the night, I could write a flipping novel on the various 'scenes' ... entertainment value was definitely there last night!

The Snapper

Culchie wrote:

Hi Brendan,

It kinda balances out what happened to your son last night on second last table.

I think that is probably the worst call I ever seen at a poker table that the villan made to dog him. I'm still shocked today.
That fellah finished 3rd....you should post it up for the boardsters.

He put another fellah who was sitting to my right on tilt as well, a good player, but he just imploded from pure annoyance at the villan I think, when he should have cruised onto the final table. He busted out stupidly.

I was going to write a report on last night, but such was the night, I could write a flipping novel on the various 'scenes' ... entertainment value was definitely there last night!

I will post it but as an amusement rather than bad beat. What a muppet.

How did you do after we stormed out ?

Culchie

The Snapper wrote:

I will post it but as an amusement rather than bad beat. What a muppet.

How did you do after we stormed out ?

2nd