AA - Ever right to fold pre-flop?

Washout · 19-01-2006 8:55am #1

Hi guys

Was playing a $10 MTT last night. 140 or so runners. 6 players left and this hand up came up

I am mid-stacked with about 35k, (also two other midstacks who have me covered)

1 big stacks on about 80K

two shortstacks have less than 10K each.

Blinds are 2K/4K

I get dealt AA in the BB.
UTG goes all in for their last 9K. The Big Stack pushes trying to isolate. and the other short stack who is in the SB also goes all in for their last 8K.

And I start thinking. my initial thoughts are that I have to push. but then I think there is at least one player pushing with Ax.
and also if both short stacks are knocked out by the big stack then im moving up in the money.

but this morning im conflicted and thinking i should be pushing in order to put myself in a position to win the tournament.....it may be alright to fold if the buy in was huge but for a $10 dollar tourney i think I made a mistake.

any thoughts on this?

Norwich Fan Rob · 19-01-2006 9:02am

how on earth can u even consider folding this.........u are at least 4/1 fav to double through the big stack, who wouldnt need a pocket pair to call a 9k all in with an 80k stack, and wouldnt want to try and isolate with a monster.
You are being presented with a massive chance to win 55k here, and hold an 80k stack, and be able to dominate the table, what a dream time to pick up AA !!!!!

Washout · 19-01-2006 9:04am

Norwich Fan Rob wrote:

how on earth can u even consider folding this.........u are at least 4/1 fav to double through the big stack, who wouldnt need a pocket pair to call a 9k all in with an 80k stack, and wouldnt want to try and isolate with a monster.
You are being presented with a massive chance to win 55k here, and hold an 80k stack, and be able to dominate the table, what a dream time to pick up AA !!!!!

thats exactly what i was thinking this morning....i woke up this morning and it was like a Homer Simpson DOH! moment

fuzzbox · 19-01-2006 9:16am

Push every time.
If big stack wins then you still get the money for finishing above the 2 short stacks.

If you win, then you might win the whole shooting match.

PPP-Pit Boss · 19-01-2006 9:48am

Not that I am ever one for the bad beat stories (GOD FORBID!) Pit-Boss rigged n all. Push obviously but
I was in a very similar situation one evening in a $6k gtd with around 400 runners it was final table time and I was 2nd in chips SB with AA. Four allins including big stack who flips over KK. 3rd player (ave stack) with pocket Aces also! Low stack with a mid pair I think.. Anyway big stack hits trip kings and 3rd player hits A high flush.. he he he.. oh dear

Needless to say it is push every time!

SandyVN · 19-01-2006 9:50am

Thats a bit of a crazy fold......... Whatever about what happens on the flop everyone wants to be ahead going in. Would you of won the hand??
Where did you finish??

Culchie · 19-01-2006 9:55am

Top 3 is where the real money is, this was your perfect chance.

If any of the shortstacks outdrew you, there would have been a substantial side pot on offer as well.

The isolation attempt by the big stack was saying he wasn't very strong either.

Push every time. Have no Fear !

Washout · 19-01-2006 9:58am

hands that came up were AQ, A6 and UTG had KK. K came on the turn.
I ended up third in the tournie.

Samba · 19-01-2006 10:44am

Washout wrote:

Hi guys

Was playing a $10 MTT last night. 140 or so runners. 6 players left and this hand up came up

I am mid-stacked with about 35k, (also two other midstacks who have me covered)

1 big stacks on about 80K

two shortstacks have less than 10K each.

Blinds are 2K/4K

I get dealt AA in the BB.
UTG goes all in for their last 9K. The Big Stack pushes trying to isolate. and the other short stack who is in the SB also goes all in for their last 8K.

And I start thinking. my initial thoughts are that I have to push. but then I think there is at least one player pushing with Ax.
and also if both short stacks are knocked out by the big stack then im moving up in the money.

but this morning im conflicted and thinking i should be pushing in order to put myself in a position to win the tournament.....it may be alright to fold if the buy in was huge but for a $10 dollar tourney i think I made a mistake.

any thoughts on this?

Would you fold the nuts off the flop?

ianmc38 · 19-01-2006 10:53am

I've been knocked out of 3 $10 NL MTTs in as many days recently when all-in preflop with the rockets. Crippled by 33, 88 and AQ. Still, has to be a push everytime though. Or does it?

Culchie · 19-01-2006 10:57am

ianmc38 wrote:

I've been knocked out of 3 $10 NL MTTs in as many days recently when all-in preflop with the rockets. Crippled by 33, 88 and AQ. Still, has to be a push everytime though. Or does it?

It doesn't have to be a 'push' as such, you can play poker with them, unless someone has already pushed into you..... but you definitely not going to fold are you now?

ianmc38 · 19-01-2006 11:01am

Culchie wrote:

It doesn't have to be a 'push' as such, you can play poker with them, unless someone has already pushed into you..... but you definitely not going to fold are you now?

Well i meant a push when someone has done it before you...

Culchie · 19-01-2006 11:04am

ianmc38 wrote:

Well i meant a push when someone has done it before you...

Come on now Ian ... why bother playing poker at all if you won't play the best hand in a $10 MTT?

ianmc38 · 19-01-2006 11:09am

Culchie wrote:

Come on now Ian ... why bother playing poker at all if you won't play the best hand in a $10 MTT?

Of course i'll play it in a MTT. I was simply saying that i wouldnt push straight in with AA unless someone had pushed before me. Obviously standard raise from mid/late postion or maybe limp from UTG. I'd rather not commit all my chips preflop with AA if i can avoid it.

Culchie · 19-01-2006 11:16am

ianmc38 wrote:

I've been knocked out of 3 $10 NL MTTs in as many days recently when all-in preflop with the rockets. Crippled by 33, 88 and AQ. Still, has to be a push everytime though. Or does it?

Sorry, I must have misunderstood you ??

ianmc38 · 19-01-2006 11:25am

Culchie wrote:

Sorry, I must have misunderstood you ??

I think so.

I am fast beginning to dread seeing an all-in before me though when i've AA in an MTT. Each night i've made great starts, building up to a well above average stack and then getting crippled by another large stack thinking i'm trying to bully/bluff by raising his blinds.

Last night was playing and got AA in the cutoff. Blinds were 600/1200 and i had about 38k, well above average. Folded around to me. I raised 3xBB. Guy on 32k in the BB came over the top all in for the rest of his stack. I insta-called and got crippled by his pocket 3s.

For some reason I'm finding that I'm playing the early to mid parts of these MTTs extremely well and am then getting some horrible beats to go out around the bubble. It's been around 2 weeks now since i cashed in a MTT and i've played about 15.

But hey thats poker.

I just bought HArringtons 1st book as well, so i'm hoping that'll improve my game as I'm starting to get very aggrevated this weather.

fuzzbox · 19-01-2006 1:03pm

ianmc38 wrote:

I'd rather not commit all my chips preflop with AA if i can avoid it.

This is very wrong.

I would MUCH prefer to commit all my chips with AA preflop, than postflop. This is especially true if we are deep.

cardshark202 · 19-01-2006 1:21pm

ianmc38 wrote:

I am fast beginning to dread seeing an all-in before me though when i've AA in an MTT.

Wow

Marq · 19-01-2006 1:58pm

No you were right to fold. Don't listen to these hypocrites. Aces only win 1 time in 14 against 3 other players anyway. Also if you get a bad feeling about a hand, you're better to toss it in the muck. If you're willing to take a chance you could call before the flop and then check-fold no matter what the flop is (the "stop-and-fold" technique).

cardshark202 · 19-01-2006 2:00pm

Marq wrote:

No you were right to fold. Don't listen to these hypocrites. Aces only win 1 time in 14 against 3 other players anyway. Also if you get a bad feeling about a hand, you're better to toss it in the muck. If you're willing to take a chance you could call before the flop and then check-fold no matter what the flop is (the "stop-and-fold" technique).

lol post of the month:D

ianmc38 · 19-01-2006 2:04pm

Marq wrote:

No you were right to fold. Don't listen to these hypocrites. Aces only win 1 time in 14 against 3 other players anyway. Also if you get a bad feeling about a hand, you're better to toss it in the muck. If you're willing to take a chance you could call before the flop and then check-fold no matter what the flop is (the "stop-and-fold" technique).

I like the check fold idea. Really need to start using it more. Cheers for the advice.

Norwich Fan Rob · 19-01-2006 2:05pm

people always complain about aces getting busted..........in a lot of cases this is due to not raising enough b4 the flop, or allowing too many people into a hand, once u see a flop with aces, unless u improve, u wont win a large pot, u will only lose one, and a lot of players cant fold them, its only a pair after all, and if u are heavily re raised, u are probably beat.
Pre flop however, u are at least 80% to win the hand in a heads up situation.
This is what u want, and when i have aces, im dying for a big stack to move in in front of me, this is ideal, and with the average range of raising hands i will win almost 9 out of 10 times (8 out of 10 vs pps, and more against the like of AK).

ianmc38 · 19-01-2006 2:05pm

On a side note, if you've AA and 8 players are all-in before you what are the odds of it holding up against 8 random hands if you call?

Fatboydim · 19-01-2006 2:29pm

I think in the case you've described the right move is an all in. As you are only looking to beat the chip leader at your table. You have 35k he has 80k. Say both shortstacks are on 9k for ease of calculation and that they are also the blinds. So if one of the shortstacks wins he gets a pot of 36k and you win the sidepot... you'll have a pot of 52k... If you win the lot you have 88k and your chip leader is down to 45k. It's no brainer.

However say that it's a sat with a flat payout structure IE: 4seats to a tourney... Then I think it's an option to fold if you are close to the prize.

But as Ian says cardinal sin is to not raise enough with them. I did this last night four off the money in the 5k tourney, min raise to get a caller and got cracked by K8 lol. [They were suited]:D

dexem · 19-01-2006 3:10pm

ianmc38 wrote:

On a side note, if you've AA and 8 players are all-in before you what are the odds of it holding up against 8 random hands if you call?

I seem to remember that Aces are only 37% or so with a full table of callers.

ianmc38 · 19-01-2006 3:13pm

Fatboydim wrote:

However say that it's a sat with a flat payout structure IE: 4seats to a tourney... Then I think it's an option to fold if you are close to the prize.

I was hoping someone would say that.

ianmc38 · 19-01-2006 3:14pm

dexem wrote:

I seem to remember that Aces are only 37% or so with a full table of callers.

Is it that high?

Marq · 19-01-2006 3:20pm

Because of the size of the side pot in this example, and because you cannot be knocked out of the tournament if one of the shortstacks beat you, you should simply consider this question:

With 6 players left in a Multi-Table-Tournament, would you play aces against the chip leader?

Norwich Fan Rob · 19-01-2006 3:24pm

i was playing one of them rounders things a while ago, where top 4 go through to next stage (level 4, this was a level 3), well there was 5 of us left, and 2 guys were very short, 1 guy had about 2 bbs left, another not much more, me and another guy had a massive chip lead, i just about had him covered by 500 chips.

So theres no diff whatsoever between 1st and 4th, infact once 4 are left everyone just goes all in every hand and no one cares who "wins" as we all qualify.

5 of us left for 4 places.

I move in with KQ and the muppet 2nd stack calls me with AA.
This is one situation where imo he had to fold.
I went mental in the chat lol, but he just couldnt see it.
I managed to scramble through in the end after surviving an all in myself on the blind a couple of hands later, so phew.

ianmc38 · 19-01-2006 3:31pm

Norwich Fan Rob wrote:

i was playing one of them rounders things a while ago, where top 4 go through to next stage (level 4, this was a level 3), well there was 5 of us left, and 2 guys were very short, 1 guy had about 2 bbs left, another not much more, me and another guy had a massive chip lead, i just about had him covered by 500 chips.

So theres no diff whatsoever between 1st and 4th, infact once 4 are left everyone just goes all in every hand and no one cares who "wins" as we all qualify.

5 of us left for 4 places.

I move in with KQ and the muppet 2nd stack calls me with AA.
This is one situation where imo he had to fold.
I went mental in the chat lol, but he just couldnt see it.
I managed to scramble through in the end after surviving an all in myself on the blind a couple of hands later, so phew.

I'd fold it everytime in that example.

DapperGent · 19-01-2006 3:48pm

Norwich Fan Rob wrote:

i was playing one of them rounders things a while ago, where top 4 go through to next stage (level 4, this was a level 3), well there was 5 of us left, and 2 guys were very short, 1 guy had about 2 bbs left, another not much more, me and another guy had a massive chip lead, i just about had him covered by 500 chips.

So theres no diff whatsoever between 1st and 4th, infact once 4 are left everyone just goes all in every hand and no one cares who "wins" as we all qualify.

5 of us left for 4 places.

I move in with KQ and the muppet 2nd stack calls me with AA.
This is one situation where imo he had to fold.
I went mental in the chat lol, but he just couldnt see it.
I managed to scramble through in the end after surviving an all in myself on the blind a couple of hands later, so phew.

Why would you move in instead of raising enough to cover the short stacks?

Waylander · 19-01-2006 3:53pm

I am not sure if I would. I know where you are coming from Rob, but if I was the other player I think I would have called also with AA. I would not get involved with marginal hands, and would make a point of trying to avoid clashing with you, but if I have AA I think I would have to play the hand and try to guaruntee myself a ticket.

Norwich Fan Rob · 19-01-2006 4:27pm

but u are guaranteed a ticket if u fold, 5 left, 4 tickets, 2 very short stacks, i have u covered, so u are risking your life on your AA standing up, when u really had no need to at all..........(hes 1/20 to qualify if he folds, and he decides to take 1/4 on it)

ianmc38 · 19-01-2006 4:28pm

Waylander wrote:

I am not sure if I would. I know where you are coming from Rob, but if I was the other player I think I would have called also with AA. I would not get involved with marginal hands, and would make a point of trying to avoid clashing with you, but if I have AA I think I would have to play the hand and try to guaruntee myself a ticket.

Well the way i see it, AA, you're a 1/4 favourite.

Fold and you're probably 1/10 to win a ticket

Call and lose and you're probably 10-1 to get a ticket.

So you're essentially taking the much better option by folding as i see it(isnt even close to marginal)

That said pushing all in with KQ is bonkers anyway.

ianmc38 · 19-01-2006 4:29pm

Norwich Fan Rob wrote:

but u are guaranteed a ticket if u fold, 5 left, 4 tickets, 2 very short stacks, i have u covered, so u are risking your life on your AA standing up, when u really had no need to at all..........(hes 1/20 to qualify if he folds, and he decides to take 1/4 on it)

Thanks Rob you just beat me to it. Must been writing at the same time!

Norwich Fan Rob · 19-01-2006 4:34pm

possibly bonkers, but the way i saw it, the big stack cant call, for reason mentioned above, and the 2 shorties were both trying to out last each other, and i was just trying to get the game done with and move on......

ianmc38 · 19-01-2006 4:37pm

Norwich Fan Rob wrote:

possibly bonkers, but the way i saw it, the big stack cant call, for reason mentioned above, and the 2 shorties were both trying to out last each other, and i was just trying to get the game done with and move on......

Agreed. AA for me there is a fold, as the ticket was guaranteed anyway(or as close to as possible).

roryc · 19-01-2006 5:54pm

In relation to the original post, I think I would only consider folding if the shortstacks were closer to my stack, but in this situation you are really aiming to take on the CL. Even if one the shortstacks gets lucky you will still profit from the CL.

I would find it very hard to drop aces preflop, but there are rare occasions when it is the best move

AA - Ever right to fold pre-flop?

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