Senshido Shredder RBSD Seminars

Millionaire

Hi

Here is something that might interest anyone who wants to learn outstanding RBSD

This is Rich Dimitri from Senshido , I got alot of his DVDs, and watch them all the time, (even took them to Thailand) and his Shredder is a MUST to check out. I rate this stuff highly. Senshido is RBSD but they also do alot of MMA training too.

I would love to attend these seminars, and defo would be there if in Ireland.

Coventry England March 11th - http://senshido.savi.ca/viewtopic.php?t=3095



London England March 12th - http://senshido.savi.ca/viewtopic.php?t=3093



Edinburgh Scotland March 18th and 19th - http://senshido.savi.ca/viewtopic.php?t=3089

If anyone goes, give me a full report!

john kavanagh

can you give us a brief outline of what 'the shredder' involves?

Millionaire

shredder is a CQC tool/concept/technique...it only works from close in.

it is hard to explain in words, and this is probably a poor explination..

essentially think of clinch range. basically what happens is your hand is on attackers face, other hand pinning back of head. your are deliever a fast serios of claws, ripd, gouges, tears, on the quater beat. a punch is 1 beat, so think of milling and mincing fast. the hand does not beak contact with the face.

It is an amazing tool. if anyone does this even lightly, you panic and freeze almost.l you just want the hands of our face and to stop.

to give you an idea, tonight in your gym, the first lad that walks in, get your palm and smear it all over his face... sort of like schhol boys razzing someones hair, only do it to the face. he'll panic!!

look at www.sammyfranco.com he has his own version called razing. I think there is a clip of him doing it on a BOB dummy.

this is great for women to do re ladies SD.

I am very impressed with it personally. have done alot of drills on it in 2005.

check thihttp://www.senshido.com/swwd2.htmls link out for a better run down than I can give

john kavanagh

"essentially think of clinch range. basically what happens is your hand is on attackers face, other hand pinning back of head. your are deliever a fast serios of claws, ripd, gouges, tears, on the quater beat. a punch is 1 beat, so think of milling and mincing fast"

hmmm...ok

thanks gerry

columok

look at www.sammyfranco.com

The guy has a book "How to turn yourself into a vicious and deadly streetfighter".

That is seriously unhealthy. This is a guy who profits from fear and hatred.

Millionaire

columok wrote:

That is seriously unhealthy. This is a guy who profits from fear and hatred.

I've a good few DVDs and books of Francos. I think he really addresses the issues and provides real self defence solutions, to protect against dangerous violence innocent people may have to face down. I think his techniques in the most part are excellent. he teaches many LEO Departments in the USA.

Which of his books or DVDs have you studied to come to the above opinion?

Mikel

http://www.senshido.com/swwd2_1.html

hmmmm......

The concept of the Shredder is so simple yet so devastatingly simple, to be truthful it's really somewhat of a mind****!"

Clive

columok wrote:

The guy has a book "How to turn yourself into a vicious and deadly streetfighter".

That is seriously unhealthy. This is a guy who profits from fear and hatred.

You've obviously never seen "Bas Rutten's Lethal Streetfighting"!

columok

Which of his books or DVDs have you studied to come to the above opinion?

I look at the way he markets himself. Whatever about self defence I have a major issue with people offering to train people to be "lethal street fighters". It preys on the paranoias of society. Street fighting isnt self defence. Its thuggery. Whether he teaches similarily I dont know but he's selling something that I see as despicable.

Mikel

columok wrote:

Street fighting isnt self defence. Its thuggery.

I agree, it's cashing in on the paranoia generated by the media, if you want to do this kind of thing you could learn to fight first, then add all this freaky rubbish on top if thats what floats your boat. Though if you can't punch somebody i don't see how you're going to do any of this crazy stuff to them.

Millionaire

columok wrote:

I look at the way he markets himself. Whatever about self defence I have a major issue with people offering to train people to be "lethal street fighters". It preys on the paranoias of society. Street fighting isnt self defence. Its thuggery. Whether he teaches similarily I dont know but he's selling something that I see as despicable.

Yes his marketing is a bit odd I grant that. sort of gothic heavy metal images!

However that is just a title of the book.

if ya read his stuff , buy the DVD, he does not promote street fighting (why would many police and gov, depts hire him if he was a thug).

What he does teach , and he teaches it is only for serious situations, is simple, to the point, and works!

What specific techniques do you mean when you say "Freaky Rubbish" ? When I studied his material (and trained it ) I found 80% of it to be excellent. I assume you have seen the techniques etc in order to make an intelligent judgement like that?

Dave Joyce

Straight up I've never read any of his stuff but Columok and Mikel, you guys sound like the nitwits who used to say the same kind of stuff about Geoff Thompson when he first started out. They accused him of being a thug and pandering to the scumbags because of his articles etc. which were very critical of TMA, not the arts themselves BUT the way in which they were taught. Now I don't know if you've an opinion of the man but I've spoken with him and I hold him in the highest esteem and regard his material as enlightening and believe me he is intelligent, articulate and really abhors violence BUT and this is the big thing, if you want to go down that kind of training you have to look at the nasty side of society. If you don't then fair enough but don't then call these type of guys the type of things you're calling them.

columok

Dave,

I contested the way Sammy Franco sells his teaching. Telling people that his book will turn them into "vicious and deadly streetfighters" is pretty poor regardless of whether the guy does this or not.

Street fighters are brawlers, not people defending themselves. I see streetfighters as people who recreationally fight on the streets of cities. His book is not called "Learn how to save yourself and get away without injury". He's marketing himself as someone who caters for thugs.

AFAIK Geoff Thompson never did this.

Colum

Musashi

People will market stuff to sell it may not even be the authors decision?
Look at Paladin Press web site for example. The likes of Geoff Thompson, Peyton Quinn, Marc McYoung, Carl Cestari, Kelly McCann, Erle Montaigue, Rich Dmitri, Mark Hatmaker, Mike Janich and Sammy Franco along with a lot of others are all up there.
The way Paladin Press or any Publisher markets a product isn't a direct reflection on the authors. Even if Samyy Franco or anyone else did choose the title there's no reason to throw baby out with the bathwater. You may personally find it distasteful, the simple remedy is don't buy or read the book.

A lot of these are almost pure fiction and entertaining reads, some have nuggets of useful information included. A critical mind can seperate the two and learn what is useful. Why deny a resource? I hear more often every day of murders and aggravated assaults nationwide. There's a guy in town under suspicion of two murders over Christmas period and he's still on the street pending a file going to the DPP! That means he's got nothing much to lose over the next two years when his case will go to court. And he's just one guy in a small enough town, major population centres are more likely to have a higher concentration of undesirables, both Domestic and Foreign.

Dave Joyce

Fair enough Colum, but I think you may have missed my point a little.

1. No streetfighter/scumbag is EVER gonna buy one of these books for reference/training, (I mean they'ed have to be able to read ), as they'ed buy and sell most of us when it comes to that type of situation or in the courts for that matter.

2. The book in my mind will mainly sell to the following types, those who are curious, those checking the guy out or those with an inferiorty complex (and probley don't train in any MA) who are looking to change themselves into a monster when the situation arises.

In my mind the marketing is just hype and doesn't come into it.

Nice post Musashi

Mikel

Millionaire wrote:

What specific techniques do you mean when you say "Freaky Rubbish" ?

Millionaire wrote:

essentially think of clinch range. basically what happens is your hand is on attackers face, other hand pinning back of head. your are deliever a fast serios of claws, ripd, gouges, tears, on the quater beat. a punch is 1 beat, so think of milling and mincing fast.

Thats "freaky rubbish". Grabbing somebody by the back of the head and using your other hand to "mince" their face. Leaving aside the fact that to do that to somebody you would need to get close to them and control them, and be able to land two hands on their head, hence my comment about learning to fight first, ie get in close, control them etc etc etc. I can't see why anyone having done that would prefer to then "mince" their face rather than punching them. After all, at this point you have control of their head with both your hands at this point, no?

Michael O Leary

The thing that can be overlooked at times is that with a self-defence situation the attacker will a lot of the time talk themselves into a close distance from which to attack. Unlike a competition where both opponents have a chance to mentally prepair themselves and where there is distance between them before the fight begins, in a lot of self-defence situations the defender only realises that the fight has begun after s/he has been struck/grabbed, etc. This is why it is important to learn about body language, how to control fear, etc.

In these worst case scenarios the best thing for the potential victim to apply is quick and effective solutions which are easy to learn and do not depend on physical fitness. Then it would be advisable for them to supplement this with a more comprehensive fighting system.

Regards,

Michael O'Leary
www.wingtsun-escrima.ie

Millionaire

Mikel wrote:

Thats "freaky rubbish". Grabbing somebody by the back of the head and using your other hand to "mince" their face. Leaving aside the fact that to do that to somebody you would need to get close to them and control them, and be able to land two hands on their head, hence my comment about learning to fight first, ie get in close, control them etc etc etc. I can't see why anyone having done that would prefer to then "mince" their face rather than punching them. After all, at this point you have control of their head with both your hands at this point, no?

Buy the DVD and you'll figure it out.

There is no point in me wasting time, debating things with anyone who has not seen, studied or practiced what they are trying to critic. be it martial arts, business, or anything else.

fianna.5u.com

Could anyone who has read, studie or viewed any of this stuff explain the following?

If a punch is one "beat", how, in a "quater beat" do you get one hand to the back of the head, one on his face and then "mince".

I'd love to here an explanation that is applicable to a fight. Not a situation that involves talking your way into clinch, or tricking the attacker into a false sense of security etc. I know most will say "but that is what street fighting involves etc". But fo themoment can we talk technique?

Thanks

Peace

Dragan

Can i just point something out to people here??? I'm pretty sure that as martial artists we are all very proud of the effort and the hardwork that we put into what we do, and that we all go out of our way to avoid trouble in "real life situations". I am also pretty sure that anyone who has actually been in these "real life situations" can remember the mad scramble and the edge of fear the brought you through it.

I can honestly say that i have been in some of the hairiest situations imaginable but at no point was i willing to mess somebody up to the point of adding grieveous bodily harm to whatever and scarring somebody for life, possibly costing them there sight, to whatever the hell else was going on.

I ALWAYS try and avoid situations the would call on my arts and skills, but when i need to i ensure that they help me end whatever is going on with a minimum of hurt to anybody, even the guy who is coming at me enough for me to go down that road.

Not only is this "shredder" thing impractical as hell, but it's a step down a road that personnally i would not go down. Just thought i would put that out there for your consideration.

Millionaire

fianna.5u.com wrote:

If a punch is one "beat", how, in a "quater beat" do you get one hand to the back of the head, one on his face and then "mince".


Peace

it is employed from close range, entry method is usually close in palm shot. most attacks happen close in (most after interview and verbals). u don't get the technique in in a 1/4 beat, but when in , you work on 1/4 beat.

this is v difficult to explain, you'd have to see it in action.

I am 20 years punches and kicking, and I can punch damn hard. and this Shredder concept, works very well with what I can already do.

Millionaire

Dragan wrote:

Can i I can honestly say that i have been in some of the hairiest situations imaginable but at no point was i willing to mess somebody up to the point of adding grieveous bodily harm to whatever and scarring somebody for life, possibly costing them there sight, to whatever the hell else was going on.

Yes I unfortunate have had my fair share of nasty experiences, and have successfully defended myself within a resonable force ideal.

I ALWAYS try and avoid situations the would call on my arts and skills, but when i need to i ensure that they help me end whatever is going on with a minimum of hurt to anybody, even the guy who is coming at me enough for me to go down that road.

Yes I agree too!

Not only is this "shredder" thing impractical as hell, but it's a step down a road that personnally i would not go down. Just thought i would put that out there for your consideration.

You have seen and trained in this shredder to judge it impractical???

Dragan

Not at all, but common sense says that you need to move one arm far enough to get a hand at the back of my head, Silat says i need to move one of mine half that distance to break your arm, wrist or elbow, which happens to be there when i get there.

I'm not saying Silat beats the Shredder ( sounds like an old episode of the Mutant Hero Turtles ), i'm just saying that i need to move the same appendages half the distance you do is all.

Don't take things so personnally dude, you wanna go around ****ing people's faces up then do so, fine by me. My "not practical" statement was more aimed at the fact that this "shredder" and GBH seem to go hand in hand.

Millionaire

I do not take things personally. ;-)

However what I cannot understand is how you and some others on here, can judge something if you have not even seen it?

I have drilled this technique with partner attacking full contact on me, from a verbal start , ie I did not know when or how he was going to attack. I used modified head gear, with ice hockey vizor to protect face. it is an awesome technique.

You guys judging stuff, without see it...how can you stand behind your comments, or expect people to take them serious..if you have not seen what you are judging....????

if you have seen it , sure, then I take constructive comments on board. and thats great! maybe we all learn something!

and that goes for anything be in shredder, MA or any other subject?

Dragan

Thats not my issue, my issue is that if your opponent was on the defensive and knew some simple Silat techniques your hand would most likely not get to the back of his head.

Also, you have not commented on the GBH part. Once again, this would be of concern to me, generally speaking in "real life" situations, the victor of any fight will be the one who gets in the most **** with the law. How do you explain to police man plod that you minced some dudes face out of self defence.

I would suggest you simlply spark him and save yourself the legal issues.

fianna.5u.com

To be fair, if your fighting someone who will let you grab there head like that you really should feel bad about doing any kind of damage, let alone "mincing".

I mean why not just punch him in the face? Or run away laughing?

Seriously, If I could get thai clinch on a dude from standing infront of him I'd just throw him on the ground, I COULD do serious damage with a couple of knees but would you really want to?

Peace

Mikel

fianna.5u.com wrote:

I mean why not just punch him in the face? Or run away laughing?

Thats one of the points i was making too, if you are that dominant, why "mince" them??

Millionaire

"mincing" is probably not the best word, as I said initially , I felt my discription in words would be not sum it up well.

You can apply various levels of force with this technique.

what you do depends on the situation and the level of threat. for example 6 months ago, someone broke a bottle and twice tried to stab my in the face (the right eye to be exact), so yes I used an ample level of force..to survive and escape.. there was another 4 attackers I had to deal with , after the bottle man.

yeah if I could run, or throw to the road, or not be there...thats my first option.

Dragan

He wouldn't have gotten past the first stab attempt with a bit of Silat!

Michael O Leary

I understand some of your reservations lads about using "shredding". Now I have not seen the DVD's but I feel that the "minceing" technique would come in useful for someone whose skill level is not so high that they can get a lot of power into a punch from a short distance or for example throw them from a clinch position. Say the average woman for instance. So in this case the "minceing" technique sounds quite appropriate.

I also understand that a lot of you would not want to use such a brutal method while under attack. However lets say you have your wife/child or mother with you and they are at risk. Will you still have reservations then?

Please also realise that it is very difficult for Millionaire to describe these methods in writing. Maybe as difficult to describe BJJ techniques to someone who has never seen grappling.

Regards all,

Michael O'Leary
www.wingtsun-escrima.ie

Dragan

The way i see it is that if you have someone grab the back of a head, then you can teach them a non leathal strike to the throat, eye or nuts and all those would be more basic and easier to pull off than this mincing thing.

In the situation of someone endangering my family and loved ones it would be a hard and swift strike the throat plain and simple. But thats just me. I see your point.

Millionaire

you can actually Shred without causing damage, by controlling the amount of force you employ in the technique. say if a drunk was really getting messy with you, (maybe you did not want to strike) you can Shred , put him to the ground, and escape. with doing any dammage.

I have had it done on me in training,like that, (no head gear) and I just frooze up and wanted it to stop. I suffered no damage.

Personally I like palm shots, and cup hand slap to ear and head. for street do not like punching as can injure hand if you strike wrong, and you can miss sometimes.

Dragan

Millionaire wrote:

I have had it done on me in training,like that, (no head gear) and I just frooze up and wanted it to stop. I suffered no damage.

I don't know i just can't see it for some reason. Put your hand on my face and i'll bite, i'm warnin ya!

judomick

ive heard alot about the shreddar theres alot of high profile names that are patrons of this system so it must have some value. you guys just need to open your mind

Scramble

I heard the Pope flipped out and totally 'minced' some guys with the Shredder last week.

fianna.5u.com

I actaully think the current pope HATES "mincers". Anyway, what ever the argument plain and simple, it takes alot more skill to get a hol dof a dudes head than to punch it.

So the idea that this might be used by less skilled people is not right.

Peace

Mikel

fianna.5u.com wrote:

I actaully think the current pope HATES "mincers".

lol

it takes alot more skill to get a hol dof a dudes head than to punch it.

Exactly!

Millionaire

Poor ol nut job Mike Tyson, punched some guy in the head in a brawl in NYC a few years back, and broke his hand to bits..and him hardly an amatuer...;)

if only he knew how to palm shot.

Michael O Leary

Millionaire wrote:

Poor ol nut job Mike Tyson, punched some guy in the head in a brawl in NYC a few years back, and broke his hand to bits..and him hardly an amatuer...;)

if only he knew how to palm shot.

Ahh but thats different. He didn't have his gloves on at the time.

Michael O'Leary
www.wingtsun-escrima.ie

john kavanagh

yes the palm strike would defo be better idea....but this is only a slight change of tactics (open hand over closed fist). it was his delivery system (training methods of western boxing) that allowed him to land his strike with such force.

Michael O Leary

This brings us back to Pro-F's subtle observation in the thread, "Hardest hitters on the planet". Which is the more relevant barehanded method? Hit really, really hard (and maybe damage your hand) or just hit really hard (and only damage the other person's face)?

And what are we going to quickly teach the 9 stone woman who may find herself having to defend her child?

Regards,

Michael O'Leary
www.wingtsun-escrima.ie

roo1981

Michael O Leary wrote:

This brings us back to Pro-F's subtle observation in the thread, "Hardest hitters on the planet". Which is the more relevant barehanded method? Hit really, really hard (and maybe damage your hand) or just hit really hard (and only damage the other person's face)?

And what are we going to quickly teach the 9 stone woman who may find herself having to defend her child?

Regards,

Michael O'Leary
www.wingtsun-escrima.ie

Jeezus anything but the shredder...if she messed that up shed be in a lot of trouble...& how is a 9 stone woman gonna keep a solid grip on someones head, especially if their bigger than her? No easy task i tell you, ask anyone whos tried thai clinching-Hows about teaching her to scream very loudly and teaching the kid to have commonsense to peg it and look for help?

Mikel

john kavanagh wrote:

yes the palm strike would defo be better idea....but this is only a slight change of tactics (open hand over closed fist). it was his delivery system (training methods of western boxing) that allowed him to land his strike with such force.

that is exactly the point, someone who trains boxing could choose whether to land a punch or an open palm strike, and could be confident of the strike landing. The training methods of boxing allow this flexibility, if i can land a punch i can also land an open palm strike.
It is self delusion of the highest order, to think that i can not land a punch, i can not land an open hand strike, but i can grab my opponent by the back of the head and manipulate ( notice i did not say mince, such an emotive word by the sound of things) his face. If you do not train these methods you will not land feck all on any opponent.
Why is that not common sense??

Michael O Leary

I am only posing the question.
Again, I have not seen the DVD and but am giving Millionaire the benefit of the doubt having trained for many years kickboxing, Krav Maga and even some grappling with JK. Even though he is a Krav Maga instructor it didn't stop him looking at his system objectively and finding methods from other systems that he feels works having tested them.

Regarding the woman screaming and the child running for help this would be plan A. However you could teach her what to do when plan A fails and work on the worst case scenario. (Plan Z)

Regarding her really being in trouble if the shredder doesn't work, studies have shown that women who fight back are less likely to escalate the situation. A man will attack another man for a different reason than he would attack a woman. If the woman fights back then he is more likely to move onto easier prey.

On her ability to hold onto his head, I don't know the specifics of the techniques however in a close range situation for a woman to claw at a man's eyes seems to me to be simple to apply, easy to learn and in some circumstances justified.

Then she should supplement her self-defence skills with a real martial art like,,, oh, I don't know. Wing Tsun or Escrima.:D Or seriously though, any of the quality martial arts taught by the many dedicated and hard working contributers on this forum.

Regards,

Michael O'Leary
www.wingtsun-escrima.ie

Mikel

Michael O Leary wrote:

Then she should supplement her self-defence skills with a real martial art like,,, oh, I don't know. Wing Tsun or Escrima

Would she not be better off learning how to fight, rather than an inapplicable "martial art"

roo1981

Michael O Leary wrote:

I am only posing the question.

Fair enough no offence meant

Regarding the woman screaming and the child running for help this would be plan A. However you could teach her what to do when plan A fails and work on the worst case scenario. (Plan Z)

Chances are if plan A fails shel know shes in a lot of trouble and panic...fight or flight and all that adrenaline malarkey...

Regarding her really being in trouble if the shredder doesn't work, studies have shown that women who fight back are less likely to escalate the situation. A man will attack another man for a different reason than he would attack a woman. If the woman fights back then he is more likely to move onto easier prey.

Er...source of studies? Not trying to be smart but seriously, if a man attacks a 9 stone woman if she fights back id imagine hed just knock her on her arse as fast as possible as hed be a little more pissed about the resistance...and i dont think it takes much studies to realise that most of these attacks would be from behind anyways, the ones that arent are probably going to be someway premediated and pretty nasty. Easier prey...well if a 9 stone woman is going to give an attacker too many probs-he better not give up the day job.

On her ability to hold onto his head, I don't know the specifics of the techniques however in a close range situation for a woman to claw at a man's eyes seems to me to be simple to apply, easy to learn and in some circumstances justified.

A 9 stone women might get to claw the face of an attacker once or twice before he gets control of her arms/wrists. Even if hes half blinded, this may make B to Z a lot:p trickier. Especially if hes a lot stronger that her which i presume he would be.

Then she should supplement her self-defence skills with a real martial art like,,, oh, I don't know. Wing Tsun or Escrima.:D Or seriously though, any of the quality martial arts taught by the many dedicated and hard working contributers on this forum.

Agreed...in which case shed probably have the good sense not to try use a shredder technique and try to use footwork to stay out of range completely, making space for plan A to work, if not if her delivery systemsare good enough keep a very close clinch and try bite...which would be a lot more shocking and painful to an attacker. But again, thats a few years worth of training.

Oh and i forgot about what the ninja kid is doing in the middle of all this...

roo1981

Bugger screwed up with the quotes and smiley functions, sorry...:o

Millionaire

john kavanagh wrote:

yes the palm strike would defo be better idea....but this is only a slight change of tactics (open hand over closed fist). it was his delivery system (training methods of western boxing) that allowed him to land his strike with such force.

Palm strike can come from the exact same delievey system. In fact I can pack much more power into palms and open hand (cup hand shots, slaps etc) than into say a right cross. and I got right cross pretty hard.

Though to get to this, I have invested alot of time working all these, from different positions, different muscle movements etc to get max speed and power ( and from a natural standing position too) couple that with visualization and caluclated emotion.... its a good mix. BANG!!

By the way...
Re anchoring your hand on someones head to shred. if you look at my original attempt at trying to descripe in writing what is difficult to put in words... I said a palm strike is used as the entry move to get you in, to deliever the shredder.

The shredder is not a Martial Art, it is an excellent concept to use against an aggressor.

If you notice the Sehshido school where shredder was developed practice essentially what is MMA and Thai Boxing with the usual ground fighting with a RBSD goal in mind. point is they can punch , kick, strike, and "roll" too!

Millionaire

why not keep an open mind and learn it all!

I train in as much practical things as I can. I punch and do pad work daily, I do heavy bag work out daily, practice clinch work. been doing RBSD for 3 years intensive, and slipping in kickboxing and since last year Thai as much as i can. not only the techniques, but RBSD drills to simulate street attacks. and plenty of good old glove up and have a hard spar lashing sessions too! he he.

That way you become rounded as for want of a work ..."martial artist"

only thing I have to learn is bjj or wrestling style ground technique. (wanted to train in SBG with John, but could not work the class times in). would love to get Wing Chun in too... when I visit ireland again Michael...show me the ropes!!

Its good fun and better to get out there and see what others have to offer, learn something, take the bits that fit your training goals the best, and drill to unconscious competence.