Hill 16 end of Croke Park

aw · 18-01-2006 11:08am #1

Is there a final phase of the GAA's plan to include covering and putting seats in the Hill 16 end of the ground?
I know alot of people love the terrace and all that goes with it.
My own personal opinion is that it looks a bit incomplete without the final side.

I think a fully enclosed, fully seated stadium would be magnificent.
I know the railway line runs behind that side hence the odd shape of it but overcoming that wouldn't be a major problem with the right design and enough money.

Imposter · 18-01-2006 11:12am

AFAIK they were initially thinking of doing it but there was a lot of problems with moving the railway line or incorporating it into the design as-is. There was also a lot of protests because of what the hill stands for (even though it was rebuilt 20 or so years ago) so it was decided to leave it the way it is.

I tend to agree they should finish the stadium if possible.

megadodge · 18-01-2006 11:21am

The stadium IS finished !

This all-seater idea is just a by-product of soccer hooliganism which has nothing to do with GAA, rugby, etc.

Quite aside from the historical aspect, I personally am delighted that the Hill will remain. There's far more colour and atmosphere there than in the stands.
There are loads of people who genuinely prefer to stand at a match (me included) and I'm glad that political correctness hasn't been tailored to on this occasion.

aw · 18-01-2006 11:47am

megadodge wrote:

I'm glad that political correctness hasn't been tailored to on this occasion.

I really fail to see what political correctness has to do with anything.

Pigman II · 18-01-2006 11:52am

When it comes to any stadium (barring external regulations) you should always yield to the preferences of the people who use it. Whilst I personally would like an all-seater croker I'm sure the people who use the hill prefer it as terracing and as such that is how it should (and will) remain..

Either way (with or without) seats Croker still looks like an unfinished mess so the point is moot.

Raytown Rocks · 18-01-2006 11:53am

As Imposter said, there had been talk of a full seated stadium, but the locals did not agree to the Hill being changed and the train line was an issue.
I personally am glad it stayed close to the original, always a great athmosphere on the hill on match days.
I dont think it detracts from the stadium at all to be honest.

Chef

LegacyUser · 18-01-2006 12:02pm

Part of the reasoning behind leaving the railway end exposed was to allow the elements at the pitch, thus creating as healthy and realistic as possible playing surface. It also allows a lot more natural sunlight into the ground, of course depending on the time of year and the time of throw in/kick off.

The other factor is that it allows for the building of stages, a la the Special Olympics & U2, which leave more space free on the pitch and would be contained on the terrace as opposed to the playing surface.

dbnavan · 18-01-2006 12:02pm

Pigman II wrote:

Either way (with or without) seats Croker still looks like an unfinished mess so the point is moot.

I prosume u dont frequent croker, :rolleyes: Unfinished mess? I have heard it called many things but, seriously Unfinished Mess, Its one structure that ireland can be proud of,

Wanna talk unfinished messes, look at roads and infrustructure. But Croker of all things irish to call a 'mess' its one of the best amatuer sport stadiums in the world. Take off amatuer and you could still be true in that statement.

M50 traffic, N3, the spire, Railroads, hospitials, the luas..... Thats what I'd call a mess.

But Croker................leaves post scratching head

dcr22B · 18-01-2006 1:04pm

Pigman II wrote:

When it comes to any stadium (barring external regulations) you should always yield to the preferences of the people who use it. Whilst I personally would like an all-seater croker I'm sure the people who use the hill prefer it as terracing and as such that is how it should (and will) remain..

Either way (with or without) seats Croker still looks like an unfinished mess so the point is moot.

C'mon you have got to be kidding, Croke Park will always be a step above anything that the FAI/IRFU will ever come up with.

Long live Hill 16!

Pigman II · 18-01-2006 1:23pm

dbnavan wrote:

I prosume u dont frequent croker, :rolleyes: Unfinished mess? I have heard it called many things but, seriously Unfinished Mess, Its one structure that ireland can be proud of,

But Croker of all things irish to call a 'mess' its one of the best amatuer sport stadiums in the world. Take off amatuer and you could still be true in that statement.

But Croker................leaves post scratching head

Yes, I've been to the ground on several occasions. I even live fairly near to it and I've brought some foriegn people along to games only to be asked 'it's big but when is that side going to be finished'?

So if you think in 2006 that a ground that looks 3/4's finished and that doesn't even have 100% seating cover (never mind a retractable roof) is great then that's your opinion. I'm telling you that Croker is already starting to look antiquated by modern stadium design and considering it was only completed a little over 1 year ago that is an amazing claim to have to make!

I'll be an old man by then (or I might not even be around who knows?) but I'd wager right now that by the time it comes to reconstructing it again in 50years or so it'll look even more outdated than the previous incarnation did. That's how little it impresses me.

Finally if you and others really thought it was 'that' great you wouldn't keep refering to it as the fruits of an amateur organisation.

C'mon you have got to be kidding, Croke Park will always be a step above anything that the FAI/IRFU will ever come up with.

I'm no fan of the new Lansdowne Road (or as I call it 'Lobsided Road') but from what I've seen it will be far ahead of Croker as an architectural entity by the time it is completed.

Imposter · 18-01-2006 1:50pm

You've got to remember that most of these modern stadiums you speak of were constructed in one go. Croker was done stand be stand. It's design was modern for when the Cusack was built. Having a retractable roof makes no difference imo and is just extra cost for very little gain. After all it was designed as a GAA stadium and a waterlogged pitch is not something that's generally a problem between May and September in Ireland.

I'd like to see the fourth side done too but there are problems with that as has been discussed.

The Rooster · 18-01-2006 2:10pm

I have heard it said that it was built in such a way that a retractable roof could be added at a later stage. But agree with Imposter that we don't need it.

There are many three sided stadiums the world over that for one reason or another couldnt have 4 sides identical. Doesnt bother me in the slightest or make the stadium any less impressive in my opinion. In fact it adds to it, gives it a uniqueness and usually ensures a better atmosphere.

The big problems I would have with Croke Park are:

1. From the outside it doesnt look as well as most big stadiums. You can see too much ironwork etc - most stadiums have screened all this off. I guess the reason for this was the closeness of the canal and railyway line.

2. (and more importantly) The lack of cover for those seated in the lower decks when it rains.

dbnavan · 18-01-2006 2:17pm

Although the stadium has completed all four phases, there is speculation of further development with the stadium, this namely includes a roof for the stadium. The Hill 16 end is unlikely to be completed in the near future with a second upper tier (in line with the other 3 sides) due to the proximity of the railway line and the fact that the GAA does not own the land nearby.

And also it is claimed, because of the weight of a slioter, a closed in stadium would effect the way it moves, I have heard this several times but have been unable to find the evidence to support this claim online, but I still believe it.

aw · 18-01-2006 2:39pm

How would you roof the stadium with only three sides?
It would seem a pointless thing to do without four complete sides on it of equal height.

Pigman II · 18-01-2006 2:44pm

aw wrote:

How would you roof the stadium with only three sides?
It would seem a pointless thing to do without four complete sides on it of equal height.

One way might be to 'glass it in' like they've done for Miller Park (home of the Milwaukee Brewers baseball team).

http://www.ballparksofbaseball.com/nl/Miller%20Park.htm

However it might not be structurally viable and it probably wouldn't get the planning permission anyway.

dbnavan · 18-01-2006 2:46pm

aw wrote:

How would you roof the stadium with only three sides?
It would seem a pointless thing to do without four complete sides on it of equal height.

Think the whole point is it wont have a roof!

blackbelt · 18-01-2006 6:29pm

Croker is fine the way it is.If you put seating in the Hill,you will be depriving and turning off people who like to stand at matches.I also prefer standing to sitting but the fact is there are three stands you can sit in,the canal end,Hogan Stand,Cusack Stand.Plus you have the Nally end.

To put a roof and have four stands with seating will take away what Hill 16 stands for.To have the stadium all the same would drown out the atmosphere.The way Hill 16 is designed IS to let the elements in ie rain,sun,wind.

On a sunny day in Croke Park,with the Hill built up like the other three,you might as well be playing indoors.

Yes, I've been to the ground on several occasions. I even live fairly near to it and I've brought some foriegn people along to games only to be asked 'it's big but when is that side going to be finished'? to quote Pigman.

We are aware that stadiums in England and America are different,but since when do we have to copy the foreigners or be like them or suit them.My grandfather was involved in building The Cusack stand roof 40 years ago.Since then it has obviously been rebuilt but I asked him why the Hill was left laying low and the railway tracks is the issue.GAA dont own the land where the track runs through,so therefore can't apply for planning permission.

He also said that Hill 16 was specifically built to cater for fans who wanted to stand and that the Hill capacity was greater with people standing.

What people don't realise is that Lansdowne Road is more messier than Croke Park is,I dont consider Croke Park messy but if you want to see messy go to Lansdowne.The North Terrace and South terrace make lansdowne look half developed.I can understand them having one of the terraces built up and seated but the way it is,it makes Lansdowne look half finished.

We should be proud of what we have.Croke Park is one of the best stadiums in Europe.I think some people are forgetting that this is not a soccer or rugby stadium,its for Gaelic.Thats why it must be defined as different

redmosquito · 18-01-2006 7:18pm

I personally like to stand at a match. I have been to Croke Park 30+ times, and my favourite times were on the hill (well best for craic, i wouldn't call the '96 final replay and 2004 final my favourite football moments)

Was on the hill only once when the Dubs were playing (Quarter Final against Donegal in 2001 or 2002, Mayo had lost to Cork earlier in the day) and I have to say the craic and atmosphere was unbelievable!!

madmorphy · 18-01-2006 9:19pm

redmosquito wrote:

I personally like to stand at a match. I have been to Croke Park 30+ times, and my favourite times were on the hill (well best for craic, i wouldn't call the '96 final replay and 2004 final my favourite football moments)

Was on the hill only once when the Dubs were playing (Quarter Final against Donegal in 2001 or 2002, Mayo had lost to Cork earlier in the day) and I have to say the craic and atmosphere was unbelievable!!

Hill16 is Dublin only !:D

Why would you have a terrace in every other gaa ground in the country and not have one at Hq,now that would be madness !:p

StupidLikeAFox · 19-01-2006 9:32am

Will always remember when Kildare painted the Hill white in 1998, better spectacle than any Dublin game!

Would have to agree the terraces are great craic for a group of lads. And the stadium is pretty impressive, I have yet to hear someone say that the quality of the stadium took away from the atmosphere of a match.

megadodge · 19-01-2006 9:52am

I really fail to see what political correctness has to do with anything.

In this regard it has to do with the "all the other countries/sports are doing it so why don't we" type attitude that usually rears it's ugly head when the fact that Croker is not all-seater is brought up.

All-seater stadia were forced upon the soccer world because it was deemed to be one of the ways of solving consistent crowd trouble. That has not and is not a problem in any other sport and yet the same criteria are being foisted upon other sports by well-meaning but not exactly clued-in people.

redmosquito · 19-01-2006 2:37pm

madmorphy wrote:

Hill16 is Dublin only !:D

Why would you have a terrace in every other gaa ground in the country and not have one at Hq,now that would be madness !:p

Ya we took a good bit of stick that day, 8 or 9 lads in the green and red surrounded by thousands of loud Dubs.
"Get the culchies off the hill"

But most of them were spot on and having the craic with us along with all the ribbing!!

cournioni · 19-01-2006 5:09pm

Terracing > Seats.

cournioni · 19-01-2006 5:14pm

By the way... The ground in the attachment > Croker.

Lemlin · 19-01-2006 9:58pm

PORNAPSTER wrote:

By the way... The ground in the attachment > Croker.

Nice picture of the mighty Breffni Porn.

cardoor · 19-01-2006 11:33pm

ColHol wrote:

Will always remember when Kildare painted the Hill white in 1998, better spectacle than any Dublin game! :)QUOTE]

I will always remember it too because I was in the Canal End providing the maroon colour ;-)

Correct me if I am wrong but wasn't the Hill made from the rubble left over from Nelson's Pillar and other rubble from our fight for Independance ?

blackbelt · 20-01-2006 9:18pm

Nothing beats a sea of blue on the hill.Not even the beloved green above the red or green and gold and white.....

I can imagine the all white colour might blend in with the Hill background to make it look empty.

madmorphy · 21-01-2006 12:05am

Without doubt,the Tyrone replay was one of the most magical days i've had on the hill,the atmosphere in the second half was unbelievable.You had to have been there,it was something else.Even though we lost the game,I don't think i'll ever forget it.

Dont Ban Me · 23-01-2006 8:38am

I'll just be honest, I dont like the hill.

To me its nothing but an eye-sore and anyone outside of Dub that I've talked to agrees with me!!

s8n · 23-01-2006 8:52am

madmorphy wrote:

Hill16 is Dublin only !:D

Sigh, was wondering how long before that chestnut was rolled out ??:rolleyes: :rolleyes:

megadodge · 23-01-2006 11:13am

To me its nothing but an eye-sore and anyone outside of Dub that I've talked to agrees with me!!

Have you read the rest of the thread, because there are a number of non-Dubs here (including myself) who like the Hill and prefer terracing in general.

mchurl · 24-01-2006 2:21pm

i go to every single dublin game in hil 16 and i for one would be outraged if they turnded the hill into an all-seater stand. I dont think that because the stadium isnt the same on all four sides that it detracts from the stadium. Also on the issue of the roof, i dont believe there is any need for a roof to be built. The staadium is mainly used during the summer months and if we were to clos this roof for a match it would detract from the match and imo ruin it as it would totally alter the playing conditions.

Blackjack · 24-01-2006 7:37pm

megadodge wrote:

Have you read the rest of the thread, because there are a number of non-Dubs here (including myself) who like the Hill and prefer terracing in general.

Have to agree with you there. Personally I prefer to have my Lazy Arse firmly sat on a pre-assigned Blue Plastic seat, so you don't have to turn up ages before to guarantee the view, but I can see the attraction to the terrace, and it would be a shame to see it be changed.

Some people like the terrace, some don't, but at least there's a bit of everything in Croker to cover all the needs.

While the full seater may be a fancier, more aesthetically pleasing sight, Croker is not there to look nice, it's there for games to be played and enjoyed in. The mix that exists of Seats and terracing covers a lot of peoples preferences in this respect.

Funsterdelux · 25-01-2006 2:16pm

Well I love the hill also because it had/has a better view of the pitch than the canal end used to its cheaper, better characters, more intimide in the big games, and I was on the hill when Meath beat Mayo in '96 replay " Brendan Reilly can he be the all ireland final hero"

BrianD · 05-02-2006 3:08pm

Pigman wrote:

Yes, I've been to the ground on several occasions. I even live fairly near to it and I've brought some foriegn people along to games only to be asked 'it's big but when is that side going to be finished'?

That's because you haven't educated your guests to the reasoning. I mean the first question I would ask is why did you put the stadium here!! Leaving that aside, on of the main reasons for the uncovered railway end is the fact that properties to the north of the stadium would effectively be blacked out from natural sunlight. I would say that the railway would be accomodated even though it might be more difficult than the railway that runs beneath the canal end.

For live concerts - the 3 a year - the hill is an advantage but not a great advantage. For a concert the Hill is closed and only the equivalent number of people are allowed on the pitch. If the stand was built like the canal end it would be closed to allow for the stage and probably a greater number of people would be allowed on the ground. Therefore, it would be better for concert promoters if the hill was covered!

Now that the screen is in the hill looks a lit more 'together'. There are however some glaring ommissions from the Croker design - no lighting and believe it or not no camera positions were built into the design, so they are all on scaffold structures that have no become permanent.

getoutadodge · 01-05-2022 11:32am

\how about rebuilding Hill 16 up to height of the other three sides but retaining its terrace standing format. That would "finish" the stadium, make it more attractive and also bring full capacity up to a 100 k. Put an huge arch over the top of the rebuilt terrace with the words "Easter 1916: the day Ireland struck for freedom"

endacl · 01-05-2022 11:38am

Thread is like sooooooo 2006.

rolling boh · 01-05-2022 12:07pm

Personally i like the option to move away if some yob is right beside me i am stuck beside them in the stand with no escape also handy when a few are meeting up to go to a game together plus cheaper as well of course .