playing AQs from the blinds?

Gholimoli

I was playing in a tourny last night and then this hand came up:
10 handed table:
blinds 25/50
stack sizes up around 1700
very early in an MTT

UTG limps
5 or 6 other limpers.
Hero on BB with AQs.
What's the proper play?
Would you raise here to thin the field ?
Obviously the only real person to be worried about is UTG.
So say you raise ,how much would you raise?
What if you get reraised by UTG?
Would you flat call and risk playing the hand out of position for the rest of the hand?
If you make a big enough raise, and get called only by the UTG, how would you play the hand out of position say if missing the flop? How about an Q high flop?

If you don't make a big enough raise but make a decent raise and UTG calls, that would give good odds for the next limper to call and if he calls then the odds would be very attractive for the other limpers considering they will have position.

If you flat call and decide to see the flop ,obviously if you miss the flop then you let it go but how would you play a flop like Q T x rainbow? Lead the flop? Check call bets?

What about flop of A T x rainbow?
What's the best line to take here?
No read on any of the players.

De Deraco

raise to 300 maybe 400, depending on what people were calling earlier. happy to take it down preflop, never flat call. i'd fold before flat calling.
I'd check that flop if there was 4 callers, and choose whether to re-raise or flat call depending on the action.
if there was one caller i'd bet half the flop and see the action from utg.

RoundTower

Gholimoli wrote:

So say you raise ,how much would you raise?
What if you get reraised by UTG?
Would you flat call and risk playing the hand out of position for the rest of the hand?

No I would not call a limp-reraise out of position with AQs for what looks like half my stack. All of your other questions I could go either way.

NickyOD

AQ would only be about 50/50, maybe slightly better against a normal player's UTG limping range so raising out of the BB and out of position isn't a good idea. Check and see what the flop brings......

.....unless of course you are BigDragon who raises out of the BB with JQ or better with several limpers already in the pot.:eek:

ocallagh

I'm interested in others opinions here... This is a weak part of my game. I have a serious problem playing AK and AQ in this situation.. I hate being out of position in a raised pot! I don't like raising here.. but a lot of the time I do.

I suppose it also depends on the limper.. If they were limping a lot you can be sure your AQs is ahead of the rest of the field and I would probably put in a large raise hoping to get one caller holding a weaker Ace or small pair.

To mix up my game a bit, I might check it and see a flop. I will happily fold if I miss. on a Q or A flop you might get payed off by KQ, AJ etc.. beware or danger boards like AT, AJ, QJ & QT...and even A9,A8..

Gholimoli

RoundTower wrote:

No I would not call a limp-reraise out of position with AQs for what looks like half my stack. All of your other questions I could go either way.

so we pretty much stablished that a flat call is out of question?
but why?

now say we follow the other line ,raise to 300 (we have 1200 left) and get called by UTG only.

flop : 5h 2h 8d
what now?are we gonna check?too weak i think as UTG is surely gonna bet something we cant call even with air.

bet ?how much? say at least half the pot which is another 300(we have 900) left now.
UTG calls? now what would you do on a blank turn?
check ?again UTG will bet with air here?
bet?the only bet here would be an all in i think and why would you wanna do that with out knowing at all what UTG has?
so far we can say UTG has anything from 66+,AK,AQ(not liekly),AJ,AT,any two suited connectors, trips 5,trips 2, ... am i wrong here?

ntlbell

Gholimoli wrote:

so we pretty much stablished that a flat call is out of question?
but why?

so far we can say UTG has anything from 66+,AK,AQ(not liekly),AJ,AT,any two suited connectors, trips 5,trips 2, ... am i wrong here?

No I don't think you can say a call is out of the question at all, I would flat call here more times than not and reevaluate the situation after the flop, raising with AQ out of position can get you into some very awkward situations.

Because the blinds are so small you can't really assume he's very strong so in your scenario raising to 300 and UTG calls, without knowing this particular UTG I think you can safley say he's alot stronger than alot of your possible holdings above

The average player utg won't be calling 300 here with 22 AT and me personally I would't be in there with AJ eithier.

The only hands I'd call UTG there is pairs 99's-AA's and AKs you raise to 300 there's 7 players behind me to act so I might not even get to see the flop for that 300

so I'm not in there with 22/55/AJ/A10 or most of the possible holdings you've listed

ntlbell

ocallagh wrote:

I'm interested in others opinions here... This is a weak part of my game. I have a serious problem playing AK and AQ in this situation.. I hate being out of position in a raised pot! I don't like raising here.. but a lot of the time I do.

I'm exactly the same AQ/AK in this position is definitley the weakest part of my game, I'm even starting to throw away AQ in early position from even small raises.

I went back over some notes from live tournaments over the last few months and AQ has sent me packing more than any other hand.

Ste05

With so many limpers in the pot, I'd just check in the BB and see what the flop brings, you don't have anything yet bar a very good disguised drawing hand. Just play it as such. If you hit the fllop you're more likely to get paid off. If you raise and are called then you'll be in trouble for each remaining street. This is how you can lose all your chips without ever really knowing where you stood in the hand. IMHO this situation calls for slightly passive play....

Hectorjelly

One of the reasons that you raise AK AQ is so that your raising range is not limited to high pairs which makes you easy to play against. So the better and more observant your opponents the more you should be prepared to raise AK AQ from the blinds. Against weaker opposition there isnt as much point.

On a more technical note the larger the blinds the better a hand like AK AQ actually is, so the better it is to raise; even out of position.

Gholimoli

this hand came about last night in a tourny i played at,and the more i think abiout it the more i start to think just calling is the correct play.
i looked at the card and saw so many limpers and i thought a raise must be a correct play here.
so i did raise it 300.
UTG calls.
every one else folds.
the flop was exactly as i said it was 5h 2h 8d(i think) .
i checked the flop knowing im behind the UTG and a raise will not get me anywhere .
he bet another 400 on the flop and i folded .
he then showed me AKh .
then i started thinking well he could have made that raise with anything at all after my check.
then i thought well maybe a flat call is the correct play.
but then again i started wondering how would i play a flop of A T 9 or Q J 8 .
i mean it would be an easy fold if you missed but what if you didnt and actually got some of it.
but over all i think the cheap and safe way of playing in this situation that im out of position ,is just to flat call and see what the flop brings.
i love to here more discussions about this ,from both sides.
thoes who agree with flat calling and thoes who think a raise is better.

Ste05

Hectorjelly wrote:

One of the reasons that you raise AK AQ is so that your raising range is not limited to high pairs which makes you easy to play against. So the better and more observant your opponents the more you should be prepared to raise AK AQ from the blinds. Against weaker opposition there isnt as much point. .

Would you have raised in this spot HJ?? With a smallish stack, blinds fairly low, OOP after 5 or 6 limpers, surely a small raise only builds the pot, and a substantial raise (as needed to thin the field) will only normally be called if you're behind (Obviously depends on the caller but normally you're behind) and this raise either commits you to the pot or will leave you having to fold after putting a substantial % of your stack in the middle.

In a cash game I agree I'd raise alot more here with this hand but in this tournament situation I don't think I would.

Hectorjelly wrote:

On a more technical note the larger the blinds the better a hand like AK AQ actually is, so the better it is to raise; even out of position.

Agreed

califano

Yeah this is one of the more interesting threads in a while.
I would usually just call here in the blinds about 2/3rds of the time in the first level or two but as time goes on when the blinds are worth more its of course better to raise to narrow the field preferably the whole field!. I wouldnt raise if i wasnt feeling like calling a re-raise.
The less ive initially invested in the pot the less concerned i am about position. And its a drawing hand so the more in the pot the better if you happen to flop the nut flush or the flush draw. Players rarely give credit for callers in the blinds having a hand so they often dont see you coming so if you hit you have a better chance of getting paid.

Hectorjelly

Ste05 wrote:

Would you have raised in this spot HJ??

Not often no, unless I was playing paticularly aggressively.

ntlbell

Gholimoli wrote:

i love to here more discussions about this ,from both sides.
thoes who agree with flat calling and thoes who think a raise is better.

There's actually a good few interesting threads worth reading on how to play AQ if your feeling energetic

RoundTower

Gholimoli wrote:

so we pretty much stablished that a flat call is out of question?
but why?

now say we follow the other line ,raise to 300 (we have 1200 left) and get called by UTG only.

flop : 5h 2h 8d
what now?are we gonna check?too weak i think as UTG is surely gonna bet something we cant call even with air.

bet ?how much? say at least half the pot which is another 300(we have 900) left now.
UTG calls? now what would you do on a blank turn?
check ?again UTG will bet with air here?
bet?the only bet here would be an all in i think and why would you wanna do that with out knowing at all what UTG has?
so far we can say UTG has anything from 66+,AK,AQ(not liekly),AJ,AT,any two suited connectors, trips 5,trips 2, ... am i wrong here?

What? You can't "flat call" in the situation you specified, you are the big blind, your blind has not been raised, and you have the option to check. All I said was that if I do raise here, I don't call a reraise from the UTG player. I don't see anything wrong with either raising or checking. If you raise and get called and miss the flop and bet anyway and get called, you probably should stop betting.

Culchie

I would have raised here, but seems I'm going against the general concensus.:(

colin k

Yeah tricky situation. IMO the way your going to win this pot most often is to raise, hope for a single caller, lead the flop and hope to pick it up there (whether u hit it or not).

ntlbell

colin k wrote:

Yeah tricky situation. IMO the way your going to win this pot most often is to raise, hope for a single caller, lead the flop and hope to pick it up there (whether u hit it or not).

See lads, it's this easy...why didn't anyone else come up with it? :rolleyes:

Hector, where was your ABC poker ? :v:

Culchie

Sometimes it easy as this though.

I reckon your AQ is ahead here the vast majority of the time at this stage.
A hefty raise, make the limpers pay to see a flop if they want to.... One caller, maybe two, if they all fold so be it.

Evaluate flop texture, if happy. Test them with a good flop bet, and assess.

I like this simple type of approach to sitting there like a limp lettuce with probably the best hand preflop, out of position against 6 or 7 players, and I haven't got a bleeding clue what they have.

ianmc38

I'm raising AQ 60% of the time from the blinds and about 75% of the time when they're suited.

Norwich Fan Rob

levels 1-3 and no major change in my starting stack i check the bb here, dont want to get dragged into a big pot at this stage out of position, invariably if it turns into a big pot, u will be behind and could do damage and not much point just picking up the blinds, i would check hoping to make a str8 or top 2 pair and get a limited amount of action.

(if for whatever reason i did raise early on with this, and fired once and got called, unless i improve on the turn, its madness to damage my stack significantly with this hand, so give it up)

Later on, with blinds that can make a difference, in general i would still be very wary of early limpers, but would raise to see where i stood, folding to a decent reraise by utg or utg+1 in a full table, but not before considering stack size as follows:

Stack size is important.
If i was a small stack, say 8 bbs or less, i would tank it all in.
If i was a very big stack, i would make a sizeable raise and put the table under pressure.
As a medium stack, especially if UTG had me covered, i would be more wary.

My table image to this point, and my image of UTG would also be important.
(i want to win this pot here and now)

You can easily end up burning half your stack raising, then firing at this once or twice , with the chances of a big payoff minimal, and blinds not worth stealing if u get aggressive early levels with lots of limpers.

Samba

Cons for Raising:

1.The snake in the grass with rockets. You catch top pair and you lose a considerable portion or worse, your entire stack.


2. You are way out of position and it will be very hard to know where you stand.

3.The limpers may be inclined to believe you are merely attempting to pick up what's on the table, if UTG calls this raise it may also entice players in later positions to call for value with rags and all of a sudden you are involved in a big pot out of position.

I can recall two recent tourney situations where this cropped up for me. It was very costly on both occasions.

I will be testing the check option next time round, ideally when checking you want an KJ10 rainbow flop

I do not believe there is a right or wrong way to play this, there are many factors which could make a raise and checking correct play

RoundTower

ianmc38 wrote:

I'm raising AQ 60% of the time from the blinds and about 75% of the time when they're suited.

I sometimes am more likely to raise if they are offsuit, if they are suited I like to play a multiway pot with the nut flush draw. Especially if the UTG player is likely to have trap limped with a good hand, you don't want to get blown off AQs.