2 Deepish stacked Cash hands

willis

Hand 1: $.50/1, ive $170,villain has $500,seems solid player.1 limp,i limp 109 diamonds,another limp,villain makes it $5 in the sb,im the only caller. Flop 2d3d3h. Villain bets $8. I call, hoping to take him off the hand if a rag hits, and obviously win big if my diamond hits. The turn is the 4d, he bets $16 showing lots of strenght. How do i extract the most?

Hand 2:$.25/.50 now,i limp ace10 clubs,3 limps button makes it $1.50 and 4 of us call. Flop Ad8c2c,i check,limper bets $5...raiser calls, i make it $25. The limper goes all-in for $68,button($150 at start of hand) calls...Whats my move.I have $85 left.

RoundTower

Hi Will,
In the first hand, I'm most interested in knowing how do you justify this double thinking? Saying that he'll pay you off with an overpair if you hit a flush, but that you can take him off the hand more or less at will otherwise? Seems contradictory. I think like this all the time, but if makes me uncomfortable when I try to spell it out like this, and I feel I am using it as an excuse to call. I at least call this flop anyway obviously, and I raise the turn, the stacks are just too deep to flat call and hope to get it in on the river. Probably I make it 55-60, leaving a 2/3 pot bet on the river. If he reraises all in I grit my teeth and call unless I really think he's a rock and couldn't have AA with the ace of diamonds, etc. here.

In the second hand it looks like you have to at least call, and you will be pot committed if you do, so you may as well go all in. I can't understand what the button is likely to have here, perhaps 88, maybe something like KJ of clubs if he is a loose raiser (it was only a baby raise anyway), but you're in good shape.

NickyOD

Hand 1: I like a raise here Another diamond on the river will be brutal either killing your action or letting him catch up. I like a raise to 50 but if he is as solid as you say he's not likely to pay you off so perhaps there is an arugument for calling afterall and hoping the river doesn't improve his hand.

Hand 2: Open raise preflop with this hand. In fact shorthanded you should be opening with a raise with most hands you play apart from small to mid pairs and some weak suited connectors. Postflop you are probably behind. It's impossible to say not knowing the villain. You over reraised on the flop. $18 was probably more than enough.

RoundTower

NickyOD wrote:

Hand 2: Open raise preflop with this hand. In fact shorthanded you should be opening with a raise with most hands you play apart from small to mid pairs and some weak suited connectors. Postflop you are probably behind. It's impossible to say not knowing the villain. You over reraised on the flop. $18 was probably more than enough.

Surely you're not folding the second hand? Also, €25 is less than a pot raise here, and I am inclined to raise bigger amounts against looser players. I understand raising to €18, but there's not much wrong with €25.

Bozzer

RoundTower wrote:

In the first hand, I'm most interested in knowing how do you justify this double thinking? Saying that he'll pay you off with an overpair if you hit a flush, but that you can take him off the hand more or less at will otherwise? Seems contradictory. I think like this all the time, but if makes me uncomfortable when I try to spell it out like this, and I feel I am using it as an excuse to call.

Hey Roundtower,

This thinking seems contradictory, but I think it has some validity. You can call the flop if you feel you're steal equity on the turn makes up for any shortage in implied odds. Your steal equity and implied odds interact with the different hands in your opponents range, if that makes any sense. If hero thinks his opponent will check-fold non o/pair hands on turn a large % of time, but give further action with o/pairs should a diamond fall, then you can begin to see how your flop call takes into account the different parts of villain's hand range.
If villain's pf raising range out of sb is only AA-QQ, and he won't give much action should a diamond fall, then you can fold the flop.

As an aside; I will often bluff call(or sometimes raise) the flop in position against opponent's who autobet the flop with a wide preflop raising hand range, if I know they will give up on the turn a high % of the time. If your against an aggressive opponent who fires too many second barrels, then you can start bluff-calling flop & bluff-raising turn. It's all about exploiting your opponent's unbalanced(hopefully) hand ranges.
This doesn't relate so much to the first hand where the reason hero called the flop is a combination of steal equity and implied odds.

NickyOD

RoundTower wrote:

Surely you're not folding the second hand? Also, €25 is less than a pot raise here, and I am inclined to raise bigger amounts against looser players. I understand raising to €18, but there's not much wrong with €25.

I never said I was folding. I just said he was probably behind. It's highly unlikely that between the two viallains you are up against both a flush draw, and a weaker ace.

I actually didn't spot that there was another caller for $5 but I don't think your hand is strong enough to make this big a raise. Both the limper and button have shown a lot of strength. and I'd be more concerned the caller has a set than a flush draw. Either way one of your oponents is way ahead of you after the flop so you're not pot committed.

SandyVN

Hand 2
Id say he has hit trips on the flop so your behind but if you dont mind taking a chance and you can afford it call.

bohsman

NickyOD wrote:

I never said I was folding. I just said he was probably behind. It's highly unlikely that between the two viallains you are up against both a flush draw, and a weaker ace.

I actually didn't spot that there was another caller for $5 but I don't think your hand is strong enough to make this big a raise. Both the limper and button have shown a lot of strength. and I'd be more concerned the caller has a set than a flush draw. Either way one of your oponents is way ahead of you after the flop so you're not pot committed.

Im happy to get it in with top pair and the nut flush draw on the flop every time especially in a 3 way pot

SandyVN

Will we ever find out what happened?? Id be happy to but he's def looking to out draw.

RoundTower

NickyOD wrote:

Either way one of your oponents is way ahead of you after the flop so you're not pot committed.

Well you usually talk about being pot committed in a situation where you are behind, you don't think "he raised all in preflop and I called with AA because I was pot committed." If you get it all in here, the pot will be $295 odd: $205 in the main pot and $290 in the side. It costs you $85 to get a slice of that.

Suppose the caller has 888, and the bettor has A2, not unlikely but close to worst case. Then you are about 31% to win (almost always you win the whole pot) so you get back about $93.

Suppose the caller has 888, and the bettor has KQ of clubs (absolute worst case, I think, and not likely.) Then you are about 25% to win the whole pot and you get back about $74.

If the caller has a flush draw instead, and the bettor still has A2, (best-case scenario) you win the main pot almost half the time and the side pot almost all the time and you get back $185.

So even if you know the caller has a set, it would be correct to get it all in here (because the button probably doesn't have a flush draw). It would be even better to call and fold if the turn paired the board, but in practice that would be just silly. If there is any chance whatsoever the caller doesn't have a set, you would be losing about $100 on average by folding here. So you are pot committed after all; even though you've worked out that you're almost certainly behind, you have to call.

NickyOD

RoundTower wrote:

Well you usually talk about being pot committed in a situation where you are behind, you don't think "he raised all in preflop and I called with AA because I was pot committed." If you get it all in here, the pot will be $295 odd: $205 in the main pot and $290 in the side. It costs you $85 to get a slice of that.

Suppose the caller has 888, and the bettor has A2, not unlikely but close to worst case. Then you are about 31% to win (almost always you win the whole pot) so you get back about $93.

Suppose the caller has 888, and the bettor has KQ of clubs (absolute worst case, I think, and not likely.) Then you are about 25% to win the whole pot and you get back about $74.

If the caller has a flush draw instead, and the bettor still has A2, (best-case scenario) you win the main pot almost half the time and the side pot almost all the time and you get back $185.

So even if you know the caller has a set, it would be correct to get it all in here (because the button probably doesn't have a flush draw). It would be even better to call and fold if the turn paired the board, but in practice that would be just silly. If there is any chance whatsoever the caller doesn't have a set, you would be losing about $100 on average by folding here. So you are pot committed after all; even though you've worked out that you're almost certainly behind, you have to call.

See! You priced yourself into it with your overraise!

NickyOD

bohsman wrote:

Im happy to get it in with top pair and the nut flush draw on the flop every time especially in a 3 way pot

sorry guys I didn't see then ut flush draw. We need a hand convertor for this forum for muppets like me. Carry on! :rolleyes:

hotspur

In hand 2 in a cash game I'm flat calling the postflop bet most of the time, maybe doubling it. You either want to juice the pot up a little in case you hit or you want to use the folding equity of your hand. Now you've got yourself stuck between the 2 of these things, you've juiced the pot up a large amount on a probable underdog and you've surrendered the folding equity in the process by committing at least 1 of the others to the pot. A smaller raise by you that draws a reraise gives YOU the option of then jamming it all in and thus utilising the folding equity. You're now drawing pretty thin probably, I'd put one of the others on a flush draw, probably the button, and the other one, the limper I'd say, has you beaten at this stage. I don't know how much the button is calling for but if it's the full amount you have about the odds for calling, though if you are sure of another flush draw then you don't. I thinking getting yourself into a calling all in situation there was your own doing and calling all ins on a flush draw even in a 3 way pot is not a good way to play cash game poker.

willis

RoundTower wrote:

Hi Will,
In the first hand, I'm most interested in knowing how do you justify this double thinking? Saying that he'll pay you off with an overpair if you hit a flush, but that you can take him off the hand more or less at will otherwise? Seems contradictory. I think like this all the time, but if makes me uncomfortable when I try to spell it out like this, and I feel I am using it as an excuse to call. I at least call this flop anyway obviously, and I raise the turn, the stacks are just too deep to flat call and hope to get it in on the river. Probably I make it 55-60, leaving a 2/3 pot bet on the river. If he reraises all in I grit my teeth and call unless I really think he's a rock and couldn't have AA with the ace of diamonds, etc. here.

In the second hand it looks like you have to at least call, and you will be pot committed if you do, so you may as well go all in. I can't understand what the button is likely to have here, perhaps 88, maybe something like KJ of clubs if he is a loose raiser (it was only a baby raise anyway), but you're in good shape.

I played the 2 hands exactly like this. 1st hand i made it $60, he folded, i think a lot of players at this level call here,he was very solid. I felt i was getting implied odds, and with regards taking him off the hand, my thinking was to judge from the size of his turn bet what he held and play poker from there if i miss. A lot of players play AK/AQ in his position exactly the same, so i felt i might be able to make him fold on the turn/river if i miss.

The 2nd hand i had odds to call after my play,but as roundtower pointed out if i call im pot committed so the all-in is the best move. The villain who has me covered might check fold if i hit my flush on the turn when i just call. He called the all-in with 22 for a set, and utg+1 limper(mad swede) had 1 of the worst played pair of Kings ive seen. I hit which was nice.

Cheers for comments/advice...always helps me improve my game

Norwich Fan Rob

loooooooooool at the button play............oh 3 calllers, hmm kings, lets see, min raise outta do this bad boy, 4 see the flop, hmmm, ace high, bet, call, raise, hmmmm, nah they all got draws, lets see another and hope they miss, all in, call, oh well still got 2 outs, geronimoooooooooo.......(or something like that in swedish).

willis

No, worse than that rob it was utg+1 who had kk.he limp calld $1.50 aftr 4 limped pre,den bet 5 into the pre raiser on an ace high board, saw the pre raiser call and me,utg,check raise to $25!!he still somehow thinks his kk is good and pumps it all-in!!!madness,sheer madness

fuzzbox

willis wrote:

Hand 1: $.50/1, ive $170,villain has $500,seems solid player.1 limp,i limp 109 diamonds,another limp,villain makes it $5 in the sb,im the only caller. Flop 2d3d3h. Villain bets $8. I call, hoping to take him off the hand if a rag hits, and obviously win big if my diamond hits. The turn is the 4d, he bets $16 showing lots of strenght. How do i extract the most?

Hand 2:$.25/.50 now,i limp ace10 clubs,3 limps button makes it $1.50 and 4 of us call. Flop Ad8c2c,i check,limper bets $5...raiser calls, i make it $25. The limper goes all-in for $68,button($150 at start of hand) calls...Whats my move.I have $85 left.

Hand 1 - either he wants to play or he doesnt. Raise it here and dont let another evil diamond fall.

Hand 2 - absolutely no need to raise the flop. You may well have the best hand, and you certainly have the best draw, certainly not check/raise. Why do you check/raise here? It gives better hands a chance to get away. What might be best is for you to lead through the field picking up as many calls as you can, and hopefully button comes over the top. If not, then no harm done, you should have lots of outs fairly often.

As played, get your 85 in the middle.