doneky play or donkey villian?

Gholimoli

5K freez out dont remember how many left exactly but i think abt 50.
my stack 6K
villian stack 7K(or in the 7K)
read on villian is he is thight enough but dont know if he is a good player or not.
blinds 200/400 .
CO limps
button (me) limp with T8 clubs.
i was thinking of raising but i had seen CO limp from exact same position with AK and didnt let it go till he hit his A on the river.
SB makes it 1000 ,and CO folds.
i call .
flop: K Q T all dimonds.
SB checks
i bet 500 .my thinking was if he flat calls on the turn and checks the turn i would push the turn unless it was another dimond in which case i would make a big bet not push.
but i knew he had a bit of the flop ,so i was hoping that he would raise my bet and then i would go over the top of him ,making it look like the small 500 bet was just to look weak and actually have the flush.
i didnt know he didnt have the flush i i was sure that i could get some info from his bets.
he raises it another 1000 and and im sure he dosent have the flush cuz all of the big cards where there on the board and this dude would not raise pre-flop with A6s or anything like that.
so i push for another 3K and the dude thinks and thinks and thinks and calls with AQo none dimond.
im busted.
donkey play or donkey villian?

cardshark202

Donkey punctuation in fairness.

Anyway, you bet 500 into a 3600 pot if i am correct and the SB makes it 1500. There's now 5600 in the pot and when you push the SB has to call 3000 to win 8600.
I don't think you have enough to make this play.

ditpoker

i dont like the play to be honest. I'll be the first to defend getting involved with T8, but the flop is far to dangerous. I'm happy to check, maybe get a free card and improve, even if the flop was KQT rainbow then the play is still into a dangerous flop as the raiser usually will have a strong hand. What are you putting him on AT AJ AQ AK AA is ahead of you, as is KQ and KJ, all hands he is likely to raise with. His call with AQ is understandable as you have only called before his raise so you don't look too strong on that high a flop.

HOWEVER, my willingness to fold is possibly why i last in tournaments but get to the final table low stacked, whereas your play is the type of aggressive play that will either build a healthy stack or go bust.

RoundTower

I had a hand like this today. I was slightly on tilt and I called a raise from a solid player with some middle cards including the Jack of diamonds (This guy doesn't have to have AA or KK) Flop AK9 of diamonds. I bet the pot, I think 150, and he makes it 500. With AA he probably calls here, with the nut flush he might do this, but might also call. Equally he expects me to check the nut flush here, but I do unusual things, so he might raise a lot of hands here. I re-minraise to 850 with about another 800 behind. Probably the first time he has ever seen me min-raise except maybe with the nuts on the river. He thinks for ages and passes, claims to have had the third nuts which I believed.

I played this hand a little sillily, but at least I knew the player and figured I could make him lay down a lot of hands here. You tried something similar, with much much smaller stacks, against a player who has apparently called bets on two streets with unimproved AK. I think you got outplayed here.

Gholimoli

ditpoker wrote:

i dont like the play to be honest. I'll be the first to defend getting involved with T8, but the flop is far to dangerous. I'm happy to check, maybe get a free card and improve, even if the flop was KQT rainbow then the play is still into a dangerous flop as the raiser usually will have a strong hand. What are you putting him on AT AJ AQ AK AA is ahead of you, as is KQ and KJ, all hands he is likely to raise with. His call with AQ is understandable as you have only called before his raise so you don't look too strong on that high a flop.

HOWEVER, my willingness to fold is possibly why i last in tournaments but get to the final table low stacked, whereas your play is the type of aggressive play that will either build a healthy stack or go bust.

the point here is not whether or not im behind.
im almost certain im behind here .the point is to get him to fold a better hand than mine .
its like when you have KK you raise, you get a call from a tight player ,and the flop comes Axx .now if the caller bets strong on couple of streets and you don't improve, you will pretty much have to lay down your KK (unless you have reasons not to believe him) and he could be doing this with TT,JJ,QQ .

as you said the flop is dangerous the villain knows this as well and it was dangerous for the villain as well so if you spot anything that makes you believe villain doesn't really like the flop ,then you can take it from him by representing the flop.

When I got involved with T8 I had these notions:
Raiser is tight:
If I hit the flop he would not put me on it as I haven't been playing many hands (I didn't have a loose image).
But more importantly I was thinking I could also take the pot from him if the situation is right.
Here the flop is K Q Ts .its a very dangerous board. I could have called that flop with AJ,or any two card suited or AK all which has the villain beat.

I mean if you look it from the villain point of you, what does he put me on.
I call from the button, and then call his raise.
If I had a low PP then I would have raised pre-flop.
if I had AK or AJ or AQ and decided to slow play (which is horrible) I have him beat with most of them and chop with AQ.

Notice the fact that villain does not have any diamonds at all and I would be ahead of him at this stage with Ad Q .
To be honest the more I think about it the more I think villain made a bad call. I mean if positions were revered(I was villain and villain was me) I would have no option but to fold to push or push my self hoping villain would fold.

Second pair top kicker on a board that has str and flush possibility is not that great.
I know I would have folded my hand if some I had the AQ and some one played it against me like I did?is that weak ?
Also blinds 200/400 .
There is 2600 in the pot before the flop.
I have 5K and villain 6K before the flop.
Villain checks, I bet 500 leaving me 4.5K .
Villain makes it 1500 (call my 500 and raise 1000) leaving him 4.5K.
I push here for another 3.5 K .now 4.5K is not that bad to be left with considering you only have second pair is it? thoughts?

The only thing is when making a play like this, a big part of it is to know that your villain is capable of folding second pair and if he is not, even though he is a donkey that makes me an even bigger donkey for trying this play against some one who can't fold.

cardshark202

Gholimoli wrote:

To be honest the more I think about it the more I think villain made a bad call. I mean if positions were revered(I was villain and villain was me) I would have no option but to fold to push or push my self hoping villain would fold.

How is it a bad call if he was ahead and caught you drawing pretty thin.

Gholimoli wrote:

I push here for another 3.5 K .now 4.5K is not that bad to be left with considering you only have second pair is it? thoughts?

He has to be fairly certain he's beat to fold here with the amount thats already in the pot.

Your flop bet was so weak he could almost believe 9 high was good:rolleyes: .

I think you were just outplayed as roundtower said.

Gholimoli

cardshark202 wrote:

How is it a bad call if he was ahead and caught you drawing pretty thin.

how can be sure he is ahead with that board.
even if he is ahead ,that board is heavily vulnerable to be outdraw specially if you currently only have second pair.

cardshark202

You really shouln't have bet so weak initially then he may have doubted whether or not he was ahead. Seeing you only had about 5k left and the pot was about 3k why not just stick it in after he checked to you? That way he has a tougher call to make (5k to win 8k).

Gholimoli

cardshark202 wrote:

You really shouln't have bet so weak initially then he may have doubted whether or not he was ahead. Seeing you only had about 5k left and the pot was about 3k why not just stick it in after he checked to you? That way he has a tougher call to make (5k to win 8k).

a play that i see alot these days is when some one has a strong hand they under bet the hand,minraise ,villian thinks it was a weak raise ,so they reraise and the original raiser goes over the top.
ive seen happen so much lately that im actually more scared of minriase in to a big pot than a normal bet.
thats what i was trying to do.
sticking it all in after his check was not correct.
for all i know he could have the flush.and i was trying to represent the flush there.going all in on the flop is hardly gonna convince him that i was the flush.

ianmc38

TBH i think it's a donkey push by you.

cardshark202

Gholimoli wrote:

for all i know he could have the flush

..

Gholimoli wrote:

im sure he dosent have the flush cuz all of the big cards where there on the board and this dude would not raise pre-flop with A6s or anything like that.

Gholimoli

cardshark202 wrote:

..

you had to be in the situation lol but i did make a donkey play according to most people so i accept it .