Middle Class...

segadreamcast

Hello, just a quick question. Roughly how big would you estimate the middle classes in Ireland are? Googling and scanning all over the place but can't find a trustworthy answer, any ideas? Answers on the back of a postcard etc etc

Cheers!

seamus

70% of the population are in the middle class bracket.

rubadub

depends what your definition of "middle class" is...
In the literal sense I would have presumed 33.33%

segadreamcast

rubadub wrote:

depends what your definition of "middle class" is...
In the literal sense I would have presumed 33.33%

Hahaha, if only life were that simple !

Cheers Seamus, I found stats that semi-support that, so I'll run with it !

rubadub

Seriously though, what does define it? is it your income? I know a few people who would describe themselves as "working class" who earn a lot more than other people they would describe as "middle class", (all of them work BTW so I never understood the "working" class bit, shouldnt it be lower, middle, upper

segadreamcast

rubadub wrote:

Seriously though, what does define it? is it your income? I know a few people who would describe themselves as "working class" who earn a lot more than other people they would describe as "middle class", (all of them work BTW so I never understood the "working" class bit, shouldnt it be lower, middle, upper

Well, I'd be talking about in an income sense. Working class, in the economical sense, would be realistically 'lower class', though you can understand why they/we wouldn't want to call them/ourselves that!

The lines are fairly blurred these days though - and many people now confuse the term 'white-collar class' with middle class. Personally though, income would be the single factor I'd use to define it into lower, middle and upper classes.

rubadub

NoelRock wrote:

Well, I'd be talking about in an income sense. Working class, in the economical sense, would be realistically 'lower class', though you can understand why they/we wouldn't want to call them/ourselves that!

I do understand, it sounds sort of negative or a put down but I think it is actually more "PC" than working, which infers others do not work for a living.
If you do go by income then I do see no reason why it should not be split evenly 33.3%. Then if you fall in the bracket you are "officially" middle-class, whatever good that is to people. It would vary from year to year. But I honestly do not see what good it does to bracket people. Why did you want to know in the first place? and obviously the definition will give widely varying %'s so how do you decide which definition is correct? (I am not being confrontational, it really does interest me)

MorningStar

The point about it being "middle" class means it has no real meaning. You would just be talking about the people midway between the rich and the poor. As the poor get richer the middle class line would move upwardly.

You would be better to use a different social economic grading system than the old method. Try finding out more about ABC1 classifications. Money is only part indicator. You can be a D but earn more money than a C1 etc...

A Doctor (Top Proffession)
B Accountant (College level to degree)
C1 Office worker (Some college specail education or training)
C2 Trades people(Training special skills)
D Factory worker (semi-skilled
E UNemployed

Been a while since I did it but that's it roughly. C1 being seen as middle class

Rodney Trotter

There is no "upper class" in Ireland.

seamus

rubadub wrote:

Seriously though, what does define it? is it your income? I know a few people who would describe themselves as "working class" who earn a lot more than other people they would describe as "middle class", (all of them work BTW so I never understood the "working" class bit, shouldnt it be lower, middle, upper

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Working_class

rubadub

MorningStar wrote:

You can be a D but earn more money than a C1 etc...

A Doctor (Top Proffession)
B Accountant (College level to degree)
C1 Office worker (Some college specail education or training)
C2 Trades people(Training special skills)
D Factory worker (semi-skilled
E UNemployed

Yes I know some "C2's" that earn almost twice as much as a "B"

Rodney Trotter wrote:

There is no "upper class" in Ireland.

Do you think there is a "middle class" then? if so then what is above it? by definition of the word "middle" there should be something higher.


I checked the wikipedia thing when I saw the post, seems all over the place! lots of differences for different countries.

segadreamcast

rubadub wrote:

I do understand, it sounds sort of negative or a put down but I think it is actually more "PC" than working, which infers others do not work for a living.
If you do go by income then I do see no reason why it should not be split evenly 33.3%. Then if you fall in the bracket you are "officially" middle-class, whatever good that is to people. It would vary from year to year. But I honestly do not see what good it does to bracket people. Why did you want to know in the first place? and obviously the definition will give widely varying %'s so how do you decide which definition is correct? (I am not being confrontational, it really does interest me)

I'd absolutely agree. Perhaps 'industrial class' or something would be a fairer term but, again, it's difficult to talk about such things without treading on peoples toes !

Yeah, it's true that if you kept fixed boundaries at 33.3%, you'd have a much more...rigid system of social class, though I'm not sure that's what society is aiming for? At least you'd know where you stand though, instead of having to define your status by what you own, which seems to be the trend these days (whether you can afford it or not).

The reasoning behind me wanting to know - a little general curiosity coupled with me doing a study on "Third Level Fees and Political Power". It mainly concerns the concept that it is, in fact, the middle classes who can afford third-level education being the ones who are opposing the fees and, since they are such a large socio-economic class, essentially engaging in political 'hardball' with the Government. Whether it's true or not is entirely debatable though!

On your final question, it's impossible to decide which definition society should use, because even the very notion of socio-economic classes existing these days tends to offend people and, consequently, they aren't talked about much in public it seems. Should it be based on income? Type of job? Where you live? It means different things to different people I suppose rubadub, hence the different statistics (which, sadly, never bode well for academic papers).

(Edit: Having said that though, it seems as though MorningStar has answered your question far more concisely and accurately than I have! Back to my books, I've got a lot to learn !)

segadreamcast

Found this on medialive.ie - perhaps it'll add a little to what morningstar said:

A Upper / Middle Class
B Middle Class
C1 Lower Middle Class
C2 Skilled Working Class
D Other Working Class
E Lowest Level of Subsistence
F1 Large Farmers (50 + Acres)
F2 Small Farmers (50 - Acres)

FlutterinBantam

The best way I found to describe the classes is

If yer parents left ya wads an a big house and business in South Dublin

upper class

If ya drive a SUV have a degree 4kids under 5 living in "Tarf" with a big mortgage....

Middle class

If ya have four holidays a year ,drink pints to beat the band. say "done" and"seen" and "scumbag"..love cabaret.. League of Ireland soccer.. don't pay bin tax/VHI/bus fares... and blame the Guvmint for everything.


Lower class


Now thats only my opinion....

mise_me_fein_V2

This class thing doesn't really affect Irish people.

Most of us are what you'd call lower class equivalent in the UK.

Then there are descendants of the Brits and they'd be upper.

Anyone who was rich before the Celtic Tiger is middle class.

segadreamcast

NoelRock wrote:

Found this on medialive.ie - perhaps it'll add a little to what morningstar said:

A Upper / Middle Class
B Middle Class
C1 Lower Middle Class
C2 Skilled Working Class
D Other Working Class
E Lowest Level of Subsistence
F1 Large Farmers (50 + Acres)
F2 Small Farmers (50 - Acres)

SOCIAL GROUP

TOTAL

'000 %
AB 432 13.2
C1 871 26.7
C2 767 23.5
DE 881 27.0
F1 239 7.3

That's the best stuff I found so far - from 2004/2005. That'd put roughly 30-35% in the real middle class - but another 23.5% in skilled working class. Interesting stuff, just posting this here for the sake of anyone else who happens across this thread in the future.

rubadub

NoelRock wrote:

The reasoning behind me wanting to know - a little general curiosity coupled with me doing a study on "Third Level Fees and Political Power". It mainly concerns the concept that it is, in fact, the middle classes who can afford third-level education being the ones who are opposing the fees and, since they are such a large socio-economic class, essentially engaging in political 'hardball' with the Government.

Then it should be based on income and certainly not if you have a degree or something. I was in college when there were fees, I remember guys laughing getting grants, up in daddies car with a nice flat, their fathers were farmers and were doing very well, unbeknownst to the taxman. But in these days ,where a plumber can easily earn more than a GP if they put the hours in, it all goes out the window and should be solely down to income.

MorningStar

NoelRock wrote:

SOCIAL GROUP

TOTAL

'000 %
AB 432 13.2
C1 871 26.7
C2 767 23.5
DE 881 27.0
F1 239 7.3

That's the best stuff I found so far - from 2004/2005. That'd put roughly 30-35% in the real middle class - but another 23.5% in skilled working class. Interesting stuff, just posting this here for the sake of anyone else who happens across this thread in the future.

I forgot about the F classes.

The big point is it more about political power than earning. C1 have more political power becasue they are more likely to be effective politically. We did this for research work and the people who vote are not the ones neglected by the govenrment the one who don't vote are ignored.

DE don't vote or more precisely they didn't in general. SF now are targetting them. THat is why we may end up in huge financial trouble as SF have no idea to run an economy as proved by their latest release. Hitler targeted the social ignored too!

segadreamcast

MorningStar wrote:

I forgot about the F classes.

The big point is it more about political power than earning. C1 have more political power becasue they are more likely to be effective politically. We did this for research work and the people who vote are not the ones neglected by the govenrment the one who don't vote are ignored.

DE don't vote or more precisely they didn't in general. SF now are targetting them. THat is why we may end up in huge financial trouble as SF have no idea to run an economy as proved by their latest release. Hitler targeted the social ignored too!

Bingo. Every point there is fairly watertight alright, and makes up a lot of what I'm trying to put across in this essay. The C1's are definitely the most effective politically - and the ones that political parties will, inevitably, try to cater for - with the fees being one particular example. If FF don't agree to keeping the fees at bay, FG will and, consequently, will scoop up the C1 vote - all the while costing the very lower class PAYE workers who they're trying to protect, as well as sacrificing the quality of education in our Universities by allowing them to continue in an underfunded manner.

Indeed, SF have no idea on how to run an economy - however, their numbers in the polls have held up - most likely, as you said, because of their groundwork in areas such as Ballymun. Bit early in the afternoon for SF and Hitler comparisons for me though !

MorningStar

NoelRock wrote:

Indeed, SF have no idea on how to run an economy - however, their numbers in the polls have held up - most likely, as you said, because of their groundwork in areas such as Ballymun. Bit early in the afternoon for SF and Hitler comparisons for me though !

It may be a bit much for hitler but it was the exact method used by the socilist party and Hitler was just a figure head at the time.
If you are writing a paper on how social class and political power are connected historical references are always useful.

SF are bigger in all areas of social disadvantage where ill-educated tend to end up. Ill educated people are a result of poor funding so the government is feeding the situation.

In the US the local governer can claim the votes of the prisoners for themselves. This actully makes it worth while getting more people into prison so at some elections there can be sudden movements of prisoners from out of state.

Miguel_Sanchez

If you read the tabloids, you're working class.

If you read broad sheets, you're middle class.

If you read the Sunday Indo, you're a moron.

segadreamcast

MorningStar wrote:

It may be a bit much for hitler but it was the exact method used by the socilist party and Hitler was just a figure head at the time.
If you are writing a paper on how social class and political power are connected historical references are always useful.

SF are bigger in all areas of social disadvantage where ill-educated tend to end up. Ill educated people are a result of poor funding so the government is feeding the situation.

In the US the local governer can claim the votes of the prisoners for themselves. This actully makes it worth while getting more people into prison so at some elections there can be sudden movements of prisoners from out of state.

Yeah - exposing the naive/ignorant and their prejudices, a similar policy seems to be working for the far right in France at the moment. Interesting fact about the U.S., I wasn't aware of that one at all , wonderful stuff!

It'll definitely be interesting to see how the SF factor plays out in the 2007 election, will they put themselves into a position where FF have to negotiate with them etc. Meanwhile though, the middle classes (just to haul us back towards topic) seem to be comfortable enough - and since they'll be the ones benefitting most from SSIA's, I'd imagine it'll mean a further C1 shift towards FF!

Sleepy

Jeff_Lebowski wrote:

If you read the tabloids, you're working class.

If you read broad sheets, you're middle class.

If you read the Sunday Indo, you're a moron.

If you read the tabloids, you're working class.

If you read broad sheets, you're middle class.

If one doesn't read, one is upper class.

fly_agaric

MorningStar wrote:

It may be a bit much for hitler but it was the exact method used by the socilist party and Hitler was just a figure head at the time.

I know I'm going offtopic but this is interesting.
Weren't the Nazis very friendly towards big business?

Wouldn't they be more like FF in this regard (don't start:D )? - populism (Bertie: I'm a socialist) combined with a fine nose for where the money is at.

If SF ever do get into power I suppose we'll find out how much of their social justice spiel is just populism to get in the vote.