Ruling? 4 cards on the initial flop. What now?

NickyOD

Saw this happen last weekend and was curious what the proper ruling is.

After the preflop action the dealer burns, then deals the flop but accidentally puts 4 cards out on the flop. On this occasion the dealer quickly swept up the 4 cards to reshuffle the deck and deal the flop again, but I am certain this has to be incorrect. The dealer was from the emporium and said this was their ruling.

I would have thought one of two resolutions should happen.

Either the 4th card becomes the second burned card or it goes back in the deck, the deck is reshuffled and a card is burned agains before the turn. Surtely the first 3 cards on the flop should remain.

Anyone?

nicryan

hrm I'm not sure what I'd do in this situation but I reckon if pushed I say that the natural turn and river get delt face down and then the deck is reshuffled (except the muck, the turn's burn, the river's burn and the turn and river cards themselves) and then redeal the flop


Nic

roryc

As far as I know this is totally wrong. The first three cards definitely stand as they would have been the flop either way. The fourth card I'm not sure about. If it was me i would just leave that face up (so everyone can see what it was) as the next burn card and deal the turn card straight off the top, at the same time turning the 'burnt' card over and mucking it. Maybe you are meant to shuffle that card back in.

Either way I wouldn't allow them to reshuffle everything. Thats ridiculous. If you object then its clear that it was a good flop for you, but I would definitely call over the TD for a ruling

biteme

This actually came into my head the other day when i was dealing. I'm not sure on the correct ruling will have to ask. But I think the ruling that you said happened seems fair and it's probably what i'd expect.

You don't know for certain what card was the forth one to be flopped. So by putting the four cards back in the deck and shuffling you are giving the cards the chance of coming back out on the flop again.

Shortstack

It depends how it is dealt. If the dealer is sure that the 4th card was the 4th card dealt then I would treat it as an exposed burn card, which in reality it is. If the dealer is not sure then I would shuffle those 4 cards and select one as the burn before the turn.

NeVeR

I agree with roryc, thats what i would do and think it's what should be done,,

RoundTower

biteme wrote:

This actually came into my head the other day when i was dealing. I'm not sure on the correct ruling will have to ask. But I think the ruling that you said happened seems fair and it's probably what i'd expect.

You don't know for certain what card was the forth one to be flopped. So by putting the four cards back in the deck and shuffling you are giving the cards the chance of coming back out on the flop again.

I'm fairly sure you don't deal the turn and river card as they would have been here, although you do deal the river card if the turn card has been misdealt. There are two rulings.

If it is absolutely clear which was the fourth card out, expose it (if it has been exposed), put it back on the top of the deck, and use it as the burn card.

If there is any doubt over which was the last card out, expose all the exposed cards, then sweep them all up, shuffle being careful not to show the bottom card (something many dealers do) and redeal the flop. I'm not sure if you take back the burn card here or not, probably you do.

roryc

Shortstack wrote:

It depends how it is dealt. If the dealer is sure that the 4th card was the 4th card dealt then I would treat it as an exposed burn card, which in reality it is.

Exactly. Its just an exposed burn card. The fact that the flop was dealt at the same time shouldn't matter. If the flop hasn't changed then why should you deal it again? Once the burnt card doesn't touch the deck it should just be treated as an exposed burn card.

roryc

RoundTower wrote:

If it is absolutely clear which was the fourth card out, expose it (if it has been exposed), put it back on the top of the deck, and use it as the burn card.

I agree with you except for this point. the exposed card cannot come into contact with the deck again or its a misdeal

RoundTower

roryc wrote:

I agree with you except for this point. the exposed card cannot come into contact with the deck again or its a misdeal

Wow I never knew this, I'm sure I've put an exposed burn card back on the deck before and no one called me up on it. Good to see we got, what, 10 different replies in 15 minutes.

nicryan

RoundTower wrote:

If it is absolutely clear which was the fourth card out, expose it (if it has been exposed), put it back on the top of the deck, and use it as the burn card.

If there is any doubt over which was the last card out, expose all the exposed cards, then sweep them all up, shuffle being careful not to show the bottom card (something many dealers do) and redeal the flop. I'm not sure if you take back the burn card here or not, probably you do.

yes I suppose this is prolly the best one...cept don't put the exposed card back on the deck...but I still reckon the natural turn and river should stand...and with shuffling...if you shuffle properly it doesn't matter if players see the bottom card when picking them up after a wash...in fact, you're supposed to pick em up with the faces of the cards pointing towards the player and not you...this is so that you can't see where the cards are...its another anti-dealer-cheating precaution...


Nic

roryc

nicryan wrote:

yes I suppose this is prolly the best one...cept don't put the exposed card back on the deck...but I still reckon the natural turn and river should stand...
Nic

The natural turn and river will stand. The hand should be played as normal except people know what the 2nd burnt card is. The flop turn and river should be correct.

mewso

Unfortunately this ignores the whole purpose of the burn card in the first place. i.e. so we can't see the back of the next board card coming. Whatever happens I don't think the next card in the deck can be a board card.

nicryan

well excpet unusual circumstances the yeah...you shouldn't see the back of the next card...and with the flop standing it will if the dealer is 100% sure of what the fourth card is...which if he's delt 4 on the flop, he won't be because it'll be due to an old deck and cards being stuck together...


Nic

jem

I think the 4th card is the burnt card but is placed face up so that everyone can see it, u then continue as normal.
I always lay out the cards the same way so that If I fcuk up i will cop& fix quickly and easly.

nicryan

jem wrote:

I think the 4th card is the burnt card but is placed face up so that everyone can see it, u then continue as normal.
I always lay out the cards the same way so that If I fcuk up i will cop& fix quickly and easly.

yes but if you're not sure on which the 4th card was you have to reshuffle them...but the natural turn and river stay as they are.

and I'm pretty sure that this will only ever happen with an old deck...in the past year and a half that I've spent dealing...1 year dealing 5+ nights a week, I've never delt 4 cards on the flop...the only times I've come close are with some of the really old tournament decks in the fitz which have now all been retired and not even used in the freerolls...


Nic

roryc

not even the freerolls....

RoundTower

nicryan wrote:

if you shuffle properly it doesn't matter if players see the bottom card when picking them up after a wash...in fact, you're supposed to pick em up with the faces of the cards pointing towards the player and not you...this is so that you can't see where the cards are...its another anti-dealer-cheating precaution...

Nic

Not if some of the cards have already been dealt, because it lets people know that some of the cards are still in play. For example suppose there are three spades on the board and you have to reshuffle the deck for whatever reason, you absolutely cannot let someone catch a glimpse of the ace of spades when you pick up the cards.

ditpoker

..... bum deal? anyone?? no???

nicryan

no not a bum deal...but I see what you mean about seeing the cards...yeah I suppose you do have to be sure...I'd never thought of that...meh...but then again I reshuffle in the same way if I have to re-deal a turn or river card...its the same advantage or disadvantage to everyone so twwwpt


Nic

tricky D

This one of those gems where rulings are inconsistent with certain principles.

Imo, there some important factors which should be considered:

The order of the cards should be random
Info on what's in the deck or the burn cards and where they may be should be minimised
The purpose of the Burn Card in covering the next board cards should be preserved

Bearing those in mind, the best ruling should be to return the burn card to the deck and reshuffle and deal burn, 4th, burn and 5th as normal. However the actual ruling is treat it as an exposed burn card.

My reasoning is that if you don't put the card back, there is a big piece of free info on that card which not normally be known. Putting it back and reshuffling minimises that info and leaves with only the knowledge that it is in there somewhere. Tho there's that exposure of other cards during reshuffle problem.

roryc wrote:

The natural turn and river will stand. The hand should be played as normal except people know what the 2nd burnt card is. The flop turn and river should be correct.

There's no problem with reshuffling 4th and 5th street as they would still be random i.e. correct. Doesn't the deck get reshuffled between streets online?? Point being the original order is less important than randomisation imho.

/my 2c

Not covered in...
http://www.cardplayer.com/rules-of-poker/general-rules.php
Irregularities #11 comes close, but is preflop

roryc

tricky D} wrote:

There's no problem with reshuffling 4th and 5th street as they would still be random i.e. correct. Doesn't the deck get reshuffled between streets online?? Point being the original order is less important than randomisation imho.

Random i.e correct? How is random correct? If you reshuffle you are changing the natural order of what WOULD have come out. Theres 2
sides to the argument. Whether you want to keep the outcome random or natural.


Yes the deck is continuously reshuffled online but this is to prevent cheating. If this was tried in a live game I don't think anybody would be happy.

cgf

After shooting the dealer,

http://www.pokernews.com/poker-rules/texas-holdem.htm

A little more complex than ye think.....

roryc

pokernews.com wrote:

Dealer Errors

If the first Hole Card dealt is exposed, a misdeal results. The dealer will retrieve the card, reshuffle, and recut the cards.

If any other Hole Card is exposed due to a dealer error, the deal continues. The exposed card may not be kept. After completing the hand, the dealer replaces the card with the top card on the deck, and the exposed card is then used for the Burn Card. If more than one Hole Card is exposed, this is a misdeal and there must be a redeal.

If the Flop contains too many cards, it must be redealt (this applies even if it were possible to know which card was the extra one.)

If the Flop needs to be redealt because the cards were prematurely Flopped before the betting was complete, or the Flop contained too many cards, the Board Cards are mixed with the remainder of the deck. The Burn Card remains on the table. After shuffling, the dealer cuts the deck and deals a new Flop without burning a card.


If the dealer turns the fourth card on the board before the betting round is complete, the card is taken out of play for that round, even if subsequent players elect to fold. The betting is then completed. The dealer burns and turns what would have been the fifth card in the fourth card’s place. After this round of betting, the dealer reshuffles the deck, including the card that was taken out of play, but not including the Burn Cards or discards. The dealer then cuts the deck and turns the final card without burning a card. If the fifth card is turned up prematurely, the deck is reshuffled and dealt in the same manner.

If the dealer mistakenly deals the first player an extra card (after all players have received their starting hands), the card will be returned to the deck and used for the Burn Card. If the dealer mistakenly deals more than one extra card, it is a misdeal.

I wouldn't agree with this ruling

RoundTower

roryc wrote:

I wouldn't agree with any of the rules from this site

There are resources on the web with better sets of rules. Look for the ones by Ciaffone or by Caro and Cooke.

kincsem

About a year ago in the Fitz one of the dealers was so sleepy he took three cards off the deck for the turn.
Luckily we stopped him before he turned them over.
I think he tried it again later.
He's a legend. :v:
I think he posts on boards.

fattony99

With regard to the deck being shuffled online between streets, I don't think this is possible. I believe that the random number is generated just before each card is dealt - i.e. all five random numbers are not generated before the flop - to prevent any possibility of cheating by hacking.

I suppose it amounts to the same thing, but I find it strange to hear people talking about online cards being shuffled. There are no cards, just numbers.

tricky D

roryc wrote:

Random i.e correct? How is random correct? If you reshuffle you are changing the natural order of what WOULD have come out. Theres 2
sides to the argument. Whether you want to keep the outcome random or natural.

The order of cards should be unpredictable - minimal info. 'Natural' order or what would have come out is irrelevant, as you should have unpredictable and minimal info on the order of cards.

To turn your question back to you, what is that the 'natural' order of a shuffled deck at any stage during the hand and why is it more important???? Unpredictable order (random), that's what we shuffle for, right????

roryc

Yes, originaly we shuffle for randomness. But the cards have already been shuffled. Once the first card is dealt then the order has been 'set' and that random hand should play its course. NOTHING should affect the natural outcome of the hand. That is why we have a lot of bum deals. If we deal to an empty space we can't simply take the cards in and muck them to the bottom as they have already affected the outcome of the hand. Bum deal.

You don't have ANY info on the turn and river, minimal or otherwise, so there is NO need to reshuffle. There was a mistake, it has been rectified, it never affected the turn or river so why change them?


Think of it this way; you make a great drawing hand on the flop, but the dealer fcuks up and has to reshuffle the turn and river. You don't hit and are left feeling cheated because you may have hit your straight/ flush, whatever, if the 'natural' cards had been played. However by the same argument if the cards were reshuffled and you hit your hand with these 'new' cards you would feel lucky, as you may not have hit if the dealer hadn't messed up. I know its pointless thinking like this in a game, but it does emphasise my point.

Its all a matter of which side you favour. Would you prefer the cards to come out in the order they would have if the dealer hadn't made a mistake? Or would you as 'tricky d' states, favour to reshuffle. I think the general consensus would be to go with the 'natural order', but neither is necessarily correct.